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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: pelirroja on Sunday 02 August 15 22:49 BST (UK)
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I am looking for my 4-great grandfather and grandmother. My 3-great grandfather was George Renwick (1790-1867), born in Hobkirk, Roxburghshire and died in Denholm, Cavers, Roxburghshire. He is well documented by a marriage and censuses.
His death certificate lists his father as James Renwick and his mother as Jane Anderson, and I've spent a lot time trying to find them on several websites, including Scotslands People but I've not been successful.
Any help finding James Renwick and his wife would be most appreciated. (Most of my Renwick ancestors have lived in Roxburghshire or Selkirkshire.)
Thank you much, Bev
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have read a book called Rulewater and its people - there's a section on Renwicks
the book is by George Tancred - it is available on google
very good book
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Thank you for your book recommendation. I'll order one.
Bev
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The book is free to read online
Also try accessing it free on archive.org
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I did figure that out so thank you again. Could you tell me where Blackleemouth is located in Scotland? My computer can't find it
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The book is set in the rulewater valley - which is in roxburghshire between Hawick and jedburgh generally bonchester, bedrule,denholm,hopkirk southdean area - some of the old farms are gone or changed name or merged with others, but will chrck
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I did figure that out so thank you again. Could you tell me where Blackleemouth is located in Scotland? My computer can't find it
Have you seen this?
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/renwick/6/
In 1805 Moses Renwick was at Forkins, which is due south of Hobkirk village, a bit further down Rulewater. I assume that's where Blackleemouth was.
I agree that Tancred's book about Rulewater and its inhabitants is well worth a look. He mentions my 5 x great-grandfather William Stephenson who farmed at Longburnshiels. Wm.'s son Joseph Stephenson married a Margaret Renwick at Alwinton in north Northumberland.
Harry
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have you heard about Douglas Scott's Hawick story project.
He is compiling a history of Hawick, families and surrounding area - it mentions the Renwicks of Blackleemouth nr Hobkirk and other Renwicks - worth a read - you can read it online
just google Douglas Scott a Hawick Story - it spans quite a bit of history - vgood
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I've spent a number of hours comparing the Renwicks listed in the book by Tancred and the Scott resource called A History of Hawick to my ancestors, but unfortunately none of them seem to be related to me. There are similarities such as my ancestors resided in Roxburghshire, a number of them were mole-catchers and many of their given names are the same like James, Jessie, Benjamin and William. However, none of the dates match.
Anyway, I appreciate the help and suggestions so thank you. We visited Scotland ten years ago and it's a beautiful country, and that trip is what started my interest in genealogy.
Bev
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I haven't yet found Blackleemouth itself, but BlackLee Cottages still exist and appear on Bing's OS map at 55.382806, -2.652873.
ScotlandsPlaces contains an entry in the 1858 OS Name Book for Blacklee Cottages. It locates them as being 1/2 mile south of Hobkirk village and describes them as: "A few cottages with gardens attached, occupied by labourers. They are the property of Walter Elliot Esq of Wolflee."
Ian
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Douglas Scott project is regularly update the version I look at was update last weekend and I was checking my renwicks tonight and notice that your James and Benjamin (molecatcher) show up on pages 1659 & 1660
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Thanks for the help locating Blackleemouth. Also I checked the pages 1659 and 1660 in the Scott resource and reread the information about James and Benjamin Renwick. However, the dates (birth and death) don't match the dates I have for James and Benjamin Renwick in my genealogy. Bev
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Worth checking info don't get too worried about date his dates are generally. Circa
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Hi again,
I have another question for someone.
The ancestor in my chart, Benjamin Renwick, in the census of 1851 lived with his father named George Renwick. He was 13 and their address was Whitrigs. In 1876 he married Margaret Minto, and in the census of 1891 Benjamin was a widower and lived with his children at the Fox and Hound Inn. In the census of 1901 he lived at Paradise Cottage.
Is there anyway to tell where these addresses (Whitriga, Fox and Hound and Paradise Cottage) are located in Roxburghshire. Again thanks for any help.
Bev
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Couple of options re fox & hound are denholm or bonchester bridge
Also could be worth tracking the name Benjamin seems to be a family name with your renwicks
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Hi Bev,
I've looked at the censuses.
Whitrigs (called Whitriggs today) is just south of Denholm in Cavers parish - 55.434418, -2.694514
The Fox and Hounds Inn is at Denholm and apparently still exists - worth googling it for its exact location etc
Paradise Cottage is also in Cavers parish but I haven't quite worked out where yet.
I'm intrigued, Bev, because Whitrig(g)s is only a mile north of Nether Tofts Farm where my 5th and 6th g-grandfathers (both called William Lorrain) were born a century and a bit earlier, and because my 3rd gt-uncle, James Lorrain, married the daughter of a John Henry and Elspeth Renwick. Elspeth was born at Eskdalemuir and I was wondering if she was connected to your Renwicks, though I know there are lots of them around.
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I may have an error in my genealogy facts so I'm doing some investigating. As soon as I finish, I'll respond to comments recently posted.
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Hi, After reading the resources by Tancred and Douglas Scott, I checked to see if I had errors in my research but my facts seem documented. My family lived in Denholm for many years. In fact their original cottage is now the Post Office in the town. I see that the Whitings and the Fox and Hound are in or near Denholm so that makes sense with my genealogy.
To the individual who asked about Elspeth Renwick, I couldn't find her in my family but I'm not very far back in the lineage, only to my 3rd grt-grandfather, George Renwick.
In case anyone is interested, I'm going to send the death certificate of my 2nd grt-grandfather, James Renwick, and the one for George Renwick in another post. I appreciate all the responses.
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Thanks for the feedback about Elspeth Renwick, Bev. It's sometimes worth widening the focus from direct ancestors to siblings and aunts/uncles/cousins - I've found many a relative hiding with the in-laws! :) Also, the recurrence of names and occupations, maybe in different branches of a family, often suggests connections, however remote.
As regards Tancred, he was not only an historian but also a good storyteller. He relied on the documentary evidence available to him (no internet in those days, of course) and the long - and occasionally dodgy - memories of local people. I remember reading some analyses of his work by a couple of distant Lorrain cousins of mine: one, a very well-known professor in his day who had taken the trouble to contact Tancred's widow, and the other, a semi-professional genealogist. Both concluded that some of his assertions about the Lorrain family heritage were probably a little wide of the mark. If that's true of my family, which is fairly well documented at times, it will be true of other families.
Regards
Ian
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Thanks for the info about finding ancestors with other family members. Sometimes it is hard to ascertain if name is related to you or not. Several weeks ago I had to delete six Renwicks from my lineage due to a mistake pointed out to me by the Legacy software.
I'm sending copies of the Death Certificates of George Renwick and James Renwick in case anyone wants to see them.
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I tried and tried but I'm unable to send the copies, even one at a time. The attachment is always too big.
Bev
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My 4 x great-grandfather Joseph Stephenson married a Margaret Renwick at Alwinton in north Northumberland. I don't have the date handy but it was in the 1790s. Joseph died in 1803 at Longyester farm in East Lothian and was buried on 21st May. Later that day a justice of the peace broke the seal that had been affixed to Joseph Stephenson's desk in presence of members of the family, including George Renwick, "brother of the widow", and read out the will to the assembled company.
These Renwicks were certainly Borderers, but probably from the Northumberland side.
Harry
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Renwick is a common name in the Borders, (and both sides of the border)
please be aware of the traditional naming patterns used in Scotland and especially the Borders
traditionally - first son after fathers father, first daug after mothers mother second son after mothers father and second daug after fathers mother and so on using family names (the names can change around slightly depending on common family names, but usual, also the names can vary if the family are trying to keep in with the Minister, or a rich friend or family member)
therefore there will be a few with the same names are a similar age.
Also middle names are very common and usually have a family connection ie female maiden names.
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Thanks for the name sequence reminder. I'd forgotten about that. Where is the Northcumberland side of the Borders region?
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The OS map option in Bing shows the English/Scottish border quite clearly as an unbroken line if you zoom out to about 3 or 4 miles to the inch and as a broken line at a bigger scale.
Hobkirk is about four miles north of the present border and Denholm is about 6 or 7 miles north of Hobkirk.
Politics and military strength, along with economic, social and environmental conditions have shifted and tweaked the actual border many many times over the years, however.
Ian
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Remember the border isn't a straight line and depends as the crow flys through the cheviot's & roads
Also some farms can have fields on both sides
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I'm going back through all the documents I have and have found a Jessie Ann Renwick , who was born in the town of Rule. Some of the writing is a challenge. Though. Thanks so much for the help again.
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George Renwick at Tofts had a son called James born 26 Jan 1826, and a daughter called Jessie Ann born at the town of Rule on 2nd Jan 1828 and baptized [apparently at Hobkirk] on 16 March 1828.
Tofts is almost certainly either Upper Tofts Farm or Nether Tofts Farm, which are both just off the road between Denholm and Kirkton. I mentioned Nether Tofts in a previous reply - this farm is at least 340 years old, having been in the hands of Francis Scott of Gorrinberry towards the end of the 1600s, and I understand the present farmhouse is probably around 200 years old.
Rule could be Bedrule about a mile to the east of Denholm, it could be Spittal-on-Rule in Cavers parish, it could be Abbotrule parish or Hallrule in Hobkirk parish, or it could be Rule-Townhead which is a place in Abbotrule parish.
You may note that a James Renwick had a daughter in 1827 not far away at New Harwood. Her name is not very clear but could be Margaret, Mary or Morag.
Regards
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I have a couple more questions, and perhaps the Renwicks of my family might have lived in Rule also.
The George Renwick at Tofts, whom you mentioned, is my 3x great-grandfather (1790-1867) and his son James Renwick (1826-1901 or 1903) is my 2x great-grandfather. His daughter, Jessie Ann, is the one born in Rule, and she married someone named Puhas (???) Spence. I can't figure out his first name. Any suggestions?
I did go back and reread your post about the farm. So could George have lived and worked on the farm? His wife is Agnes Kedzie but there isn't much info about her. This is all amazing to me.
So this brings me back to my very first post, which is who is the father of George Renwick? I've found a James Renwick, born on May 5, 1751 at Cavers, Roxburghshire. Could that be him and if so who is his wife?
Well, enough of the questions and thanks so much again. Bev
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Hi Bev, I think you may have confused two Jessie Anns.
There is one who married Peter Spence at Galashiels in 1881. She was the daughter of James Renwick and Helen Johnstone, and appears to have been born in about 1859 as her marriage record shows she was aged 22.
The other Jessie Ann, daughter of George Renwick and Agnes Ked(z)ie, was single and died in 1900 at the age of 72.
George probably did base himself at Tofts, for a while at least, but that is only a guess. Mole-catchers seem to have gone from farm to farm catching the moles and selling their skins for clothes.
I know that brings you no nearer the answer to your question about George's parentage :(
Regards
Ian
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Yes, I did have a couple things wrong, and I need to be more careful in the research. James Renwick and Helen Johnstone had a daughter, Jesse Ann, born on Aug. 2, 1859, according to Statutory Births. She is the one who married Peter Spence (I couldn't figure out the first name - thanks) and died in 1933.
George Renwick and Agnes Kedzie had a daughter, Jesse Ann born in Rule on Jan 2 in 1828, who never married, and in the Census of 1891 was living with her brother, Benjamin and his two children. I knew that she died after 1891 but thanks for the date of 1900. I think that I have the lineage correct?
My mother's middle name was Jesse and her father was James Renwick so I see the passing down of family names. Bev