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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Tom Huygens on Wednesday 05 August 15 22:16 BST (UK)

Title: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Wednesday 05 August 15 22:16 BST (UK)
Hi everyone,

I know I shouldn't just "assume" family relations without hard proof, but since the UK records are very incomplete (no information, no maiden names, missing registers, people not being registered etc) it is not always possible to find that much needed proof...

Could you please have a look at this, and tell me what you think?


My 4th great-grandmother Mary Ann Gibson was born (according to every single census about her) in 1804 in St James Westminster. This would mean she married a first time in 1819 to Edward Francis, at the age of 15. Though this does seem very young, they didn't have children until she was 20 so it *might* possibly be correct. When her husband died, she married a second time to James Henderson in 1831.
The first marriage was in Lambeth, the second in St Martin in the Fields.

I have found several Mary Ann Gibson's, but none of them fit the bill completely. The best matches are:

- b1798 @Bermondsey, d of William and Elizabeth: this would make sense regarding the place of her marriage to Edward and also of a better age than 15 (as is mentioned in the census)
- b1799 @St James Westminster, d of George and Margaret: age still acceptable for her marriage to Edward, correct parish according to the census, but she was baptised "Mary" and not "Mary Ann"...
- b1804 @St Martin in the Fields, d of Thomas and Sarah: same birth year as in the census, close enough to St James (maybe she was born in St James, but baptised in St Martin?)


Now, when I was looking for other possible Mary Anns, I noticed the following, a 4th option:

I already had a Gibson in my tree. Her second husband, James Henderson, had a younger brother: Thomas Henderson. He married a Margaret Anne Donaldson in 1834. This Margaret Ann was the daughter of William Donaldson and Charlotte Elizabeth Gibson.

At her wedding, one of the witnesses was a certain Stuart Gibson. I found him quite easily and reconstructed his family. Two of his daughters were called Charlotte Donaldson Gibson and Mary Ann Francis Gibson. Their first names are the married names of two woman, for one of whom he was a witness at her marriage.

My assumption is that Charlotte and Mary Ann were actually Stuart's sisters.

There are many more links between the families... To give you a few:

- another daughter of Stuart was called Eleanor Eliza; so was Mary Ann Francis' daughter
- the daughter Stuart named Charlotte Donaldson was his first born child after the other Charlotte, whom I suspect being his sister, had died
- Stuart Gibson married a second time in 1837; witness to the marriage? George Henderson, brother to the aforementioned James and Thomas, and - if I am correct about Mary Ann being his sister - his brother-in-law
- they all were tailors and dress makers, living within a one mile range of each other
- when Charlotte Gibson/Donaldson died, her widower William Donaldson remarried Christian Carlyle; witness to the marriage: Stuart Gibson
- I haven't found a link yet, but Eleanor Eliza Francis, daughter of Mary Ann Gibson, also married a Carlyle


So, is this enough "coincidence" to think Mary Ann Gibson/Francis/Henderson and Charlotte Elizabeth Gibson/Donaldson were Stuart Gibson's sisters, even if I can't find any baptism records?
Stuart was born in Scotland though, but his parents came to Westminster when he was quite young. There are two possibilities:

- Mary Ann and Charlotte were born in Scotland but couldn't remember because they were too young
- they (or one of them) were born after their parents moved to London


About the birth/baptism certificates missing: Stuart Gibson is also impossible to find, but we do have his parents' names since he moved to Australia and there the parents' names are mentioned on the death certificate. I did find the couple (David Gibson and Margaret Keith) and 2 other children, but not Stuart, Charlotte or Mary Ann.


Thank you for any insight you might offer! :)

Regards,
Tom
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 06 August 15 10:42 BST (UK)
Just looking at the 1819 marriage.

-The banns book and register are very neat and orderly and look meticulously kept. Where the bride was a minor, this is noted in the banns book. There is no such entry for Mary Ann Gibson. therefore it would be reasonable to assume that she was 21 or over at the time of her marriage.
-The curate who performed the marriage ceremony was Arthur Gibson
- One of the witnesses was Elizabeth Gibson
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Thursday 06 August 15 10:54 BST (UK)
Just looking at the 1819 marriage.

-The banns book and register are very neat and orderly and look meticulously kept. Where the bride was a minor, this is noted in the banns book. There is no such entry for Mary Ann Gibson. therefore it would be reasonable to assume that she was 21 or over at the time of her marriage.
-The curate who performed the marriage ceremony was Arthur Gibson
- One of the witnesses was Elizabeth Gibson


Hi,

yes I saw that. My experience is that even when registers look meticulously kept, people could still say what they wanted since they did not have to provide any proof. That is also the reason why bigamy was such a common crime back then. If the spouse claims to be a bachelor or a widower, nobody is going to check on that. Especially when he is from another parish.

The marriage certificate of 1819 says that she was an adult, but the 1841, 1851, 1861 & 1871 census ánd her death certificate all say "born 1804" (+/- 1 year).
That's why I first posted the different options: either she wasn't a minor at her 1st marriage and she was not born in 1804 but in 1798 or earlier, or she was a minor and the curate didn't register it as he should have.

My guess is that she *might* indeed have been a minor. Arthur Gibson is not (yet) in my family tree, but since it is a widespread name, he isn't necessarily related to her.
The marriage was in Lambeth, while her husband was from Marylebone and she from St James Westminster. Maybe they got married in Lambeth because the priest there agreed to "hide" the fact she was a minor?

regards,
Tom
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 06 August 15 11:09 BST (UK)
There seems to have been only one Reverend Arthur Gibson at that time. He was born in Crosby Ravensworth, Westmorland in 1784.

"Thomas Gibson of Oddendale, who .. departed to his rest on the 20th day of June 1869 in his 91st year. He was the eldest son of John Gibson of Oddendale Esquire, J.P. and Ruth his Wife, the former of whom died on the 12th day of Dec. 1828 aged 76. The latter, daughter of Arthur and Margaret Bousfield of Ravenstone dale, on the 21st day of December 1828 aged 77. + The other children of the said John and Ruth Gibson were Margaret, B. May 28, 1780 died Jan. – 1821. Frances, B. May 11 1782, died Dec 3, 1852. Arthur, Vicar of Chedworth Gloucestershire, formerly Fellow of the Queen’s College, Oxford B. Dec 31 1784 died August 7, 1878. John, Vicar of Newbold Pacey Warwickshire formerly fellow of the Queen’s College Oxford B. May 6 1787 died June 23 1867. George, B. October 11 1789, died December 26, 1878. Richard, B. Apr 24 1792, died Aug 25 1880. Michael, B. Jan 10 1798 died Sep - 1835. " http://www.northofthesands.org.uk/westmoreland/parish/12/crosby_ravensworth
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Thursday 06 August 15 11:19 BST (UK)
Thanks, this rules out his relation to Mary Ann, as I suspected.

Regards,
Tom
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 06 August 15 11:19 BST (UK)
Do you have Stuart Gibson's first marriage to Mary Tweedie Carlyle at St James's in 1818?

One of the witnesses was Elizabeth Gibson.

And see  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=83579.0
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Thursday 06 August 15 11:33 BST (UK)
Do you have Stuart Gibson's first marriage to Mary Tweedie Carlyle at St James's in 1818?

One of the witnesses was Elizabeth Gibson.

And see  http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=83579.0

Yes, she was his first wife. The weird thing about it is that the clerk calls her "Mary Tweedie" and she signs with "Mary T Carlyle". I am trying to find out if Tweedie is a second first name, if it is her maiden name, or if Carlyle is her maiden name.

Thanks for the other thread, I didn't see it in the list when I searched for Stuart Gibson.
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 06 August 15 11:40 BST (UK)
Quote
the clerk calls her "Mary Tweedie"

The register does say "Mary Tweedie Carlyle"
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Thursday 06 August 15 12:09 BST (UK)
Quote
the clerk calls her "Mary Tweedie"

The register does say "Mary Tweedie Carlyle"

You have another image? The one on ancestry says "Mary Tweedie"... Where she signs, it is M T Carlyle (or something that resembles Carlyle in any case).
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 06 August 15 12:42 BST (UK)
Yes, that one you've posted is a transcript. FindMyPast has the original image
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Lily M on Thursday 06 August 15 13:48 BST (UK)
Hi Tom,   I'm just reading through this slowly, not finished yet, and have now got to go out  >:(

You've certainly looked into this thoroughly.

I just wanted to add that the witness, Elizabeth Gibson, at Mary Ann Gibson's 1819 marriage, is signed by the same hand as the Elizabeth Gibson who witnessed Stuart's 1818 marriage.
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Thursday 06 August 15 14:21 BST (UK)
Hi Tom,   I'm just reading through this slowly, not finished yet, and have now got to go out  >:(

You've certainly looked into this thoroughly.

I just wanted to add that the witness, Elizabeth Gibson, at Mary Ann Gibson's 1819 marriage, is signed by the same hand as the Elizabeth Gibson who witnessed Stuart's 1818 marriage.

Looking forward to your comments when you get a chance to read through it all!

This Elizabeth is also supposed (by me) to be a sister of Stuart.
I am not sure if it is the same person, but there is a marriage of an Elizabeth Gibson to William Andrew, in 1814, St Martin in the Fields. The witness is Margaret Gibson, who could be Stuart's (and her) mother, Margaret Keith.


In short, I think the family consisted of 6 children:

parents: David Gibson & Margaret Keith
documented children: David (1789), Helen (1791) and Stuart (1795) --> all born in Scotland
undocumented children: Elizabeth, Mary Ann and Charlotte Elizabeth --> born in London?

If the Elizabeth who married in 1814 is indeed Stuart's sister, she must have been older than him, born in or before 1793. That fits neatly with the "gap" between Helen and Stuart.
On the other hand, there are at least 3 or 4 other Elizabeths who would be a better match than her (all born around 1785-1790 in St Martin in the Fields) so that is probably a dead end...
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Lily M on Friday 07 August 15 14:20 BST (UK)
Hi Tom,  Your head must be reeling with all those Gibsons, Hendersons, Carlyles and Donaldsons.  I know mine is  :D

Well of course, after you've gone into this family so well, I've not come up with anything new.  Just one extra child, that you may already know about.  Martha Gibson who married Samuel Wills in 1809.  Her witnesses were David Gibson, Margaret Gibson and Elizabeth Gibson (same one by the look of it). I see that Samuel Wills was one of the witnesses at Stuart Gibson's 1st marriage.

Unfortunately, Martha died before the 1841 census, so no clues there.

I'm inclined to agree with you, that the Gibsons - Mary Ann, Stuart, Elizabeth and Martha, all appear to be siblings.   But I'm afraid I can't find that missing link that could prove it.

Good luck
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Tom Huygens on Friday 07 August 15 14:29 BST (UK)
Hi Tom,  Your head must be reeling with all those Gibsons, Hendersons, Carlyles and Donaldsons.  I know mine is  :D

Well of course, after you've gone into this family so well, I've not come up with anything new.  Just one extra child, that you may already know about.  Martha Gibson who married Samuel Wills in 1809.  Her witnesses were David Gibson, Margaret Gibson and Elizabeth Gibson (same one by the look of it). I see that Samuel Wills was one of the witnesses at Stuart Gibson's 1st marriage.

Unfortunately, Martha died before the 1841 census, so no clues there.

I'm inclined to agree with you, that the Gibsons - Mary Ann, Stuart, Elizabeth and Martha, all appear to be siblings.   But I'm afraid I can't find that missing link that could prove it.

Good luck

Martha is new to me, thanks for that!
I've briefly looked for her, but can only find one mention of that marriage without witnesses on ancestry, and nothing on findmypast. But I'll keep on looking.
One of the witnesses for Stuart's second marriage was a Charlotte Wills, undoubtedly related. Maybe Martha's daughter?

I'll keep you updated when I find anything else...
Regards,
Tom
Title: Re: Gibsons, tailors in London
Post by: Lily M on Friday 07 August 15 15:57 BST (UK)
I found the copy of the marriage on Find My Past     St James Piccadilly - 1809

Martha had a daughter Charlotte, born 1820.  They were certainly a close family.

ADDED   Yes, please let me know of any updates