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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: maggbill on Thursday 06 August 15 13:16 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have ideas on where to find info on the Tyrone population about the Famine 1846 - and the ongoing 20 years or so?
Refers to my search for McNab ancestors - and not finding them (but plenty of other McNabs), in the Longfield East/Drumquin/Segully area Catholic parish registers, even though I am about 90% sure they should be there. (See my recent post http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725805.0 if you have the time!)
So, my question is - are there any books/articles re the effects of the famine on the population of the Tyrone area? Places in the area where a family in strife might have moved to.. ( Have checked out Omagh records with no success). Really "stabbing in the dark"... but if anyone has knowledge or knows where to find such info?
Thanks...
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Hi,
if you google Famine in Tyrone you get several sites such as http://www.ahg.gov.ie/en/nationalfaminecommemoration2011/great%20irish%20famine-%20final%20presentation%20_2_.pdf Which give some information about Tyrone.
Regards
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Hi Kingskerwell,
Thanks very much for this link - and actually I do remember finding this at some stage - most likely even printed it out... but have forgotten all about it. Loads of very interesting info and statistics.
Also interesting that it states that in fact, Tyrone was one of the areas least affected by the Famine - at least compared to some other places. I suppose I was maybe hoping that there might be some more specific "local info" - wishful thinking... Were there any newspapers of the time, relating to the Longfield Tyrone area??.... suppose that might be an avenue to pursue. I am so loathe to admit that like many others, maybe I am getting to the real "dead end" brickwall of my Irish connection.
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Longfield East is in the Omagh PLU. If you look at the Board of Guardian’s minutes (ie the workhouse management records) you should get a week by week description of circumstances within that area. The records are in PRONI in Belfast and are not on-line.
In addition to weekly stats on the number of admission, departures and deaths you usually get a lot of information on prevailing health conditions. The success of the crops (other than potatoes obviously) and other information about life in the PLU at that time.
The workhouse admission records are also worth looking at if you think your family might have been admitted there. A separate set of records but again held in PRONI.
One of the reasons that Tyrone (and other counties in Ulster) was slightly less affected by the impact of potato blight was that many agricultural labourers and small farmers had a little money from linen making.
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http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/13138/eppi_pages/161140
This link "Census statistics" compares 1841 and 1851. Includes numbers of people residing in each townland in Co Tyrone.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674781.0 32 counties on this link
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Hi Conahy and Elwyn,
Thank you both for your input. First of all - Conahy - very helpful links. Will spend some time really studying these.
Elwyn - I would love to be able to access Board of Guardians minutes, and also Workhouse admission records. I did contact PRONI - sometime last year I think, re the possibility of Omagh Workhouse records for a specific person/period - i.e. about 1870, and I am sure that the reply was that the Omagh records no longer exist? I understood (and supposed presumed) - there were no Tyrone workhouse records for any period? If they are actually available for the earlier period of 1844 - 1864, or for other areas of Tyrone I would be pleased, but disappointed too. I haven't a chance in hell of ever getting to Belfast myself - as I live in Australia - and would never be able to afford the trip. I know we are lucky to have lots of things online, but how come, the ones I really want are inevitably "not available"!!
So - again - your help is appreciated... onwards.... one day I still hope my "Irish Mystery" will all fall into place. Cheers !
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According to this link the Omagh Board of Guardian’s minutes for 1839 – 1948 (ie the entire life of the workhouse) still survive and are in PRONI (PRONI Ref: BG/26). What appears to have been lost are the admission records (ie the names if the inmates) for the 19th century and part of the early 20th.
There’s a lot of reading in the minutes (52 meetings a year with each taking up 6 or 7 pages). You would need to get a researcher to takes some copies, if you couldn’t go yourself:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Omagh/
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Hi,
PRONI Wills have several mcNab/McNabbs from Segully and Drumquin in their records. See http://apps.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
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Hi again Elwyn and Kingskerwell,
Thanks again. Kingskerwell, - I was unaware of the link to this list of PRONI wills, and will have a look at what is available. I already knew of the will for a Francis McNab death 1886 - not my Francis unfortunately... and the others for Drumquin don't connect with me. But will certainly have a good look at them. Pity that so few have an "image available"... but interesting just the same. I am accumulating so much info about Drumquin/Segully area - that I am sharing with others who have been researching the 2 or 3 "Francis McNabs" of the area which I have proved are not mine.
Elwyn, - right now I can't actually find the email which PRONI sent me about the Omagh workhouse records,, but you are right, they actually did say that the Board of Guardian Minutes were there, but wouldn't help. Mind you, who knows what gems one might find within the minutes? Re getting a researcher to do copies ... it would have to be a local researcher - a professional which could be costly? Wouldn't know where to start with that...
And - here is the point I am reaching - how come with all this info I am finding on the McNabs of "Tyrone", I am not finding my family - who should have records of some sort surely (between 1815 - 1864). Even though I have one definite piece of Scottish evidence which states they were from "Longfield" - and another piece of evidence, 90% dependable which states the place of birth being "Tugally" - (which doesn't exist, but I have been thinking "Segully" and working on that understanding) - the question is arising - Have I been "barking up the wrong tree"??? oh, misery ... what a thought!
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With the wills, if they were pre 1900 then usually the reason they are not on-line is that they were destroyed in the 1922 fire. For post 1901 wills they mostly do exist, and if not on-line yet, will be put on in due course as PRONI get around to it. In the meantime, you can e-mail them and they will take a photocopy for you, for a fee. (Or you could get a researcher to get copies). There’s a list of researchers on the PRONI site:
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/research_and_records_held/can_someone_else_do_research_for_me/independent_commercial_researchers.htm
You don’t say what occupation your ancestors had but if they were agricultural labourers/weavers or small farmers then chances are they didn’t leave a will, or at least not one that required probate. So you may not find anything in PRONI.
Your ancestors were born and married before the start of statutory birth, death & marriage registration (1864, except for non RC marriages, which start in 1845). You need to rely on church records, where they still exist, for earlier research. I see that your ancestors were RC. The RC records for that parish (Drumquin or Langfield) only start in 1846. So there are no relevant church records for the period you are interested in.
Longfield East isn’t a big parish. It only has about 19 townlands and I’d agree that Tugally could be Segully (513 acres). That’s the nearest match that I can see. You will presumably have noted two McNab farms on that town land in Griffiths Valuation. Plot 9a was Francis McNab with a 22 acre farm and nearby was William McNab on plot 11, a 10 acre farm. They are likely to be related to each other.
Looking at the revaluation records (which take Griffiths forward) I see that Francis was replaced by Hugh Gormley in 1867. Meanwhile on plot 11, William was replaced by Edward Dogherty in 1874 only to be replaced by Francis McNab in 1869. In 1888 it changes briefly to Patrick Rush (who I can see from PRONI died in 1888), only to change again soon after to “reps of Francis McNabb” indicating he too had recently died. In 1897 it changes to Edward McIvor, and so the farm appears to have passed out of the McNab family at that point. There are no McNabs in Segully by the time of the 1901 census.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
The farm tended to be left to the eldest son leaving the other sons to make their own way in the world. Since there was little employment in the area, most were forced to migrate.
The absence of church records and the loss of the pre 1901 censuses means that there are very few records around that would detail a McNab from Segully or anywhere else in that parish. If your family were not themselves farmers and had left Ireland by the 1860s then you may struggle to find any record of them anywhere. However if Segully is where they came from, then I’d say there’s a fair chance that the 2 McNab farms on the townland are/were relations. (It’s not a big place. In 1901 there were just 19 houses there with a total of 77 people). I know you say you have discounted Francis who died on 23.5.1866 (aged 64 incidentally, as per the death indexes on GRONI) but I wonder whether he might be related all the same. You could try tracing the 3 children mentioned in the will (Annie McNabb and Mary Kearney and John McNab) and seek to do a DNA test with any living descendants. That’s about all I can think of.
PRONI have a document D1618/6/1 which is dated 1862 and which lists the rental and accounts for tenants in Segully.
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Wow Elwyn,
What knowledge you have - and thank you so much for sharing it!!
My Francis McNab married a Mary McHugh (McCue), and had 6 children, 3 of them being born between 1844 and 1854, so I was really hoping to find them in the Drumquin Catholic records recently released, which do cover that period... but no luck. Francis was a "Labourer"... ? could have been farm labourer but never listed as "farmer". The family went to Glasgow in 1864, and really struggled.
So as you say, I doubt that any of the Wills are relevant to My McNabs - certainly not the one for Francis McNab 1886 farmer, as I believe this is the Francis who married Anne McCanny - and there is lots of info on them and their family. Interestingly over the last few days I have been in contact with that Francis descendants - who like me are in Australia!! So, between us we might be able to take my story further - fingers crossed!
Your information about Segully, the Griffiths Valuation and the McNabs is great... I already had some of it, but again, your info is not only helpful, but well organised... At the moment I have big sheets of paper on my dining room with timelines and "trees" of various Segully McNabs... I am finally getting to the stage of putting the jigsaw all together.
I could be tempted to abandon the search for MY McNabs, but as you say, Segully was such a small place, and surely they could be related to these other McNabs I have found. And I have generally found very few McNabs elsewhere.
Sorry to waffle on, but again, thanks for your info - all of which I will take some time to add to my "heap"... and who knows !!!!???
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I'd go for a DNA test with the Australian descendants of the Segully Francis. If you do, let us know whether there is a match.
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Hi Elwyn,
I'm not very knowledgeable about DNA tests - would they be very expensive? And at "generations" distance, are they able to tell if our ancestors were related? Sorry to sound so dumb - but it is a part of genealogy which I have never really considered.
Am hoping to hear back from the Australian descendants - have just sent them some Drumquin baptismal records which I know are relevant to them... so who knows...
Cheers
Maggie
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I am not an expert on DNA testing so would hesitate on what to advise but my view is that you may struggle to find any documentary records of your particular ancestors in Ireland and so possibly the only way of seeing whether they did come from Segully is by DNA with someone you know had ancestors who definitely did.
There are different tests for male to male and female to female but others may be able to comment on what type would be best in this situation.
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Thanks for that Elwyn,
Will certainly keep it in mind for a definite option.
Cheers
Maggie
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"though I have one definite piece of Scottish evidence which states they were from "Longfield" - and another piece of evidence, 90% dependable which states the place of birth being "Tugally" - (which doesn't exist,"
There is a Townland called TULLY in the parish of Longfield West.
Regards
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Hi Kingkerswell,
"Tully" ??? I think I did see it somewhere.... but where? Now I will have to do a deeper search for the actual area of Tully... Longfield West... Thanks very much for input
Maggie
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Hi again Kingkerswell,
Struggling to find out much about "Tully"... but have just found on Wikipedia, that in total there are 2,162 Townlands in County Tyrone!! Oh dear..... I might have to broaden out my research area, but that would be just too much eh? "Tugally/Segully"... has been my option, but maybe I should be looking more generally at "Longfield" which could be "Longfield East/or West".... If ever I do come across my own McNab ancestors in any Irish records - verified that it is really them... There will be a "trumpet fanfare"!! 8)
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Hi again Kingkerswell
Well have found a bit about Tully - thanks to www.townlands.ie - and have given a good look at Tully and lots of townlands with variations of Tully -----, etc. Have then used links in the townlands website, to check for McNabs in Griffith Valutation records, and 1901 census - not a single McNab person in sight. It was worth a try - but won't give up totally on my "Segully" connection yet.
Thanks again for your excellent advice
Maggie