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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jsavage00 on Tuesday 11 August 15 22:27 BST (UK)
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Okay so my great grandad is my brick wall in my research. His name was George Ernest Williams and he died in Islington, London around 1988 due to a house fire. He was apparently In ww2 as a staff sergeant, he married Winifred m Alger in 1942 and got a divorce later on in his life. He had a brother called Richard Williams who moved to New South Wales in Australia.
Thank you
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A great big warm welcome to RootsChat. :)
What bit in the puzzle are you looking for of your Great Grandfather, (perhaps his date of birth, or his parents?)
We can't look for details of living people, unfortunately by the way, due to privacy reasons. (Just in case that was what you were looking for)
Trystan
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Thank you and his D.o.b, d.o.d and parents if that is okay, I would like to complete the williams family tree as I have done everyone else's family, thank you
Jsavage00
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You're most welcome :)
Do you have a copy of their Marriage Certificate by any chance?
Trystan
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His death certificate would give you his date of birth, as it is recent enough to include that information. You say "around" 1988, how precise is your understanding of it? The only Islington death I can immediately see for Islington and George Ernest was in 1992.
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I have not got the certificate unfortunately, just the basic information which was on ancestry.
Jsavage00
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Ayashi,
My mother said it was before my sister was born (she was born in 1994) and she said it was during winter, I say around 1988 because my mum said she was a late teenager/early adult. In 1992 my mum would have been 21, so it could possibly be but unlikely
Jsavage00
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There is also likely to be a newspaper article on his death, as it was in tragic circumstances.
This would pinpoint the date of his death, allowing you to apply for a copy of his death certificate.
Trystan
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The man who died in Islington in 1992 had a birthdate (according to the death registration) of 21 May 1920. Does that ring any bells in the family?
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If it helps, the death I'm looking at was 1 qr, so would be winter. This is the only "George Ernest" I can see in London in 1988 give or take 5 years.
I'll post it in case we need to come back to it as a possibility.
Name: George Ernest Williams
Birth Date: 21 May 1920
Date of Registration: Mar 1992
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Islington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 13
Page: 1491
Do you know of the names of any siblings for George Ernest?
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I have looked at the Islington gazette for this accident but I could not find any matches.
And George being born in 1920 could be correct as Winifred was born around 1921.
My granddad also said he was a staff sergeant during world war two but he got married in 1942 so I do not understand this... Thank you again.
Jsavage00
Edited to add:
My granddad also said he had a brother called "Dick" which was a nickname for Richard.
He also said that Richard moved to New South Wales in Australia and fought during world war two.
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Yes, sorry, I see you said that (it's been a long day!) Unfortunately not an uncommon forename... I had hoped the combination of several siblings might lead to a common set of births.
What don't you understand about it? People in the army did not spend the entire time away. My own great grandfather was fighting in France in WW1, came back (presumably on leave), got married and then was shipped back out again. Things like that did happen.
I would suggest that the marriage cert, if you know the details (buy direct from GRO not Ancestry though), would be the way to go for his parentage. The death certificate, if it is his, would I believe have his place of birth as well as the date- hopefully other details will tie in, such as the manner of his death, his occupation, and the informant provided it wasn't delivered by the coroner instead.
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On Thursday I am hopefully able to view some of his personal letters and diaries my granddad has kept. Hopefully there are some names, etc.
I'm just confused on why there isn't a newspaper article on this event. I do know the road name in which this event occurred on.
Jsavage00
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Possibly it is too recent for your database, or the newspaper or that time period hasn't been added to the database yet?
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I see you've already been given the 1992 death on another forum, where you also gave additional info including a suggested mother's name of Lottie/Lotte:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fw8/
You will I think need to purchase the marriage certificate in order to have concrete facts with which to progress.
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Yeah, that could be a possibility. Plus its not like I can just order any certificates because it could be the wrong George Ernest Williams. (He just HAD to have the most common name! O.o haha)
Jsavage00
Edited to add:
yes ww2 talk suggested this site to me :)
I would not go with the mothers maiden name because my granddad suggested that!
He told me the brothers name was albert (bert) Williams and today he changed his mind to Richard Williams! My granddad is old though so ill let him off...
Jsavage00
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You mentioned a Mildmay address in your other thread.
I see that in the 1945-47 electoral rolls, Lottie Williams and Winifred M Williams were listed at 64 Mildmay Grove, Islington.
Could this be George's mother and wife together?
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1950 electoral roll:
64 Mildmay Grove: Lottie Williams (and others)
66 Mildmay Grove: George E and Winifred M Williams (and others).
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Yes! That's them! I think that's the house my g-granddad died in!
Jsavage00
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Progress :)
Also relevant I think are another couple found at 64 Mildmay Grove in the relevant years, Henry and Florence D. Wakefield.
Married as Henry Wakefield and Florence D WILLIAMS in Shoreditch in 1930.
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I am not sure because I haven't got past George! I can only be certain on Thursday but this is the biggest progress ive made in over half a year!
Thank you!
Jsavage00
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You're welcome :)
There is a Florence D Williams birth in Shoreditch in 1910. Not yet followed her up.
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I think George's fathers name was Ernest (like George's middle name)
Jsavage00
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I think Florence may have died as Florence Daisy Wakefield in Brentwood, Essex in 1988. DOB is given as 21 Oct 1910 which fits with the Dec qtr 1910 birth in Shoreditch.
If you can find her in 1911 you may find important clues to the wider Williams family.
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who would this Florence be to George Ernest Williams?
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who would this Florence be to George Ernest Williams?
I don't know yet, but she and her husband lived with Lottie in the 1940s-early 50s. So perhaps she was Lottie's daughter? More research required :)
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My mum says George Had Sisters... so it could be possible!
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I suggest you have a look on the 1911 census for Florence - but using her middle name of Daisy.
We can't post info from that census on here for you.
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Okay so search daisy Williams in 1911 census on ancestry?
Okay I found her but it says there is no-one with the name Ernest George Williams in the household? My granddad says his name was Ernest, on the census its different... Maybe my granddad made a mistake?
Jsavage00
and it also says George d.o.b was abt 1907
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Yes. Try with birthdate 1910 +/-1 yr and specify mother's name Lottie.
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I found one with the requirements you stated but it does not say a George Williams nor ernest Williams?
Jsavage00
edited to add:
George might not have had been born yet and Ernest might just be a mistake made by my grandfather...!
Jsavage00
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I think your granddad may have made a mistake as to the father's name.
Henry Williams married Lottie Dutton in Shoreditch in Jun qtr 1907.
I believe they are likely to be the parents of Florence Daisy and also of George.
Birth for him: George E Williams, mother's maiden name Dutton, Sep qtr 1919 Shoreditch vol 1c p81.
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Okay, so what is all the information that has been discovered so I can put it in a family tree and see what pops up? Thank you!!
Jsavage00
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If you search FreeBMD for Williams births with mother's maiden name Dutton in Shoreditch district, you will see some others who may ring bells in family memories. One of them had a name which might have been shortened to "Bert".
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I am going offline now - once you've digested things from here I would urge you to purchase the marriage certificate for George and Winifred to obtain concrete information which should help you consolidate what has been found and give you a solid basis for tracing further back. Do keep us posted :)
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My Grandad said he doesn't know a bert Williams when asked today although he kept going on about him...?
He said the guy who moved to new south wales was Richard.
Thank You
Jsavage00
edited to add:
okay me too, on Thursday I will update this with new information, hopefully some siblings are in letters/diaries.
Jsavage00
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It looks as though the Williams' first child may have been registered as Richard Henry Williams, Sep qtr 1907 Shoreditch.
So perhaps he was Dick?
And may even have had a younger brother Albert/Bert (b1916)?
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Yes!! I think we can trace "Dick" to Australia.
A tree on Ancestry has Richard Henry Williams b 1907 son of Richard Henry Williams/Charlotte Dutton marrying a Mary Ellen O'Connor in Queensland in 1929 and dying in NSW on Christmas Eve 1969.
Don't rely on other detail in that tree, which looks rather confused as to dates and places on the English side of things :o. And they give him an additional middle name of Llewellyn for which the source is not clear.
BUT they do attach an image of the 1929 Queensland marriage certificate showing the groom as Richard Henry Williams, 21, a cook, parents Richard Henry (engineer) and Charlotte nee Dutton. All very promising.
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Oh yeah I think I see the tree you are talking about. Do you think he could be the richard i am looking for?
Jsavage00
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where did you find the information regarding the residence of george williams?
Jsavage00
Thanks
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If you mean the electoral rolls, you can see them for yourself on Ancestry.
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i couldnt find anything about him apart from marriage record on ancestry... Weird.
Thank you
Jsavage00
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Just went to cemetery and got dates: date of cremation 4.2.92 date of death: 27.1.92
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i also got address: 27 Tilney Gardens baxter st/rd
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1950 electoral roll:
64 Mildmay Grove: Lottie Williams (and others)
66 Mildmay Grove: George E and Winifred M Williams (and others).
I do truly love Electoral rolls - if they're ever fully OCR'd and indexed, they'll be even better.
BugBear
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Just went to cemetery and got dates: date of cremation 4.2.92 date of death: 27.1.92
This was the chap who died in 1992 - but as found early in the thread he was born in May 1921. He seems to be a different person from George son of Lottie nee Dutton, who was born in 1919 (see reply #31).
I think the hunt will have to continue for the correct death for your George.
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what do you mean the correct death?
The cemetery already told me his death date?
Jsavage00
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what do you mean the correct death?
The cemetery already told me his death date?
Jsavage00
But are you sure the man who died in 1992 is your George? He does not seem to be the one with a mother Lottie and a Mildmay Grove address - and you have previously said that family members' recollections were that he had died earlier than 1992.
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My great-grandfather moved houses a lot because he divorced his wife and kept moving between houses, the address the cemetery gave me was the address that my mum lived at with my grandfather who organised the cremation, i do not think the address was for him.
Jsavage00
Edited to add:
The funeral also went from that address
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I will be ordering George's military records because I have recently found unknown family in Australia which has gave me some more information. I also went through George's letters, etc. He kept writing and was getting replies from a Removed from West Africa, gambia. No one in the family knows who they are and I can not find them on Find My Past or Ancestry. Could he have met these people during the war? He could have been stationed in North Africa... I am not sure of the link as Removed opened the letter as 'My dearest George' and signed it off as 'Your loving daughter'. But like I said before, no-one knows them...
Jordan
Moderator comment: see my reply below
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Hi again
A quick google suggests there is a couple with the names you mention, now living in France in a house with an African name. You don't mention any dates for the letters, but if there's a chance the relevant people are still living you'll need to amend so as to remove their names from the thread, under Rootschat rules.
Hope you're able to find what you are looking for.
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I do not know if they are living, no one in the family (who is still alive) knows them, the last time anyone heard from them was 1991
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The names of the couple you mentioned have been removed in accordance with our 'no living people' policy.
They may have married in 1990 and he may have been born in 1954.
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i do not know if they are living or not. Last time anyone heard was 1991!
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Let us put it another way then- "If there is potential for the person to be alive". 1991 is not that long ago. If the person was born over a hundred years ago, there very little or no potential for them to be alive. If the person was born fifty years ago, there is reasonable cause to believe they may be alive. If you do not have confirmation of death and the person concerned was born within reasonable livespan from the current date, their details cannot be posted.
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Hi JSavage00,
I have been researching the Williams family tree for some years.
George Ernest Williams is the brother of Richard Henry Williams who came to Australia at age 15. (He added Llewellyn to his name later in life as a vanity but it is not his legal name.) He appears as just Henry in the 1911 census with their parents: Richard Henry Williams and Charlotte ("Lottie" in the census) Williams (Lottie's maiden name was DUTTON). Their daughter Florence Daisy is just called Daisy in the census but was known as Flo as an adult.
I believe you have looked up family trees on Ancestry which will show Josiah George/Joseph DUTTON and Eliza/Elizabeth Alma GILLBANK as George Ernest's grandparents. Their daughter Charlotte (Lottie) DUTTON was born in 1887 in Hoxton London. She married Richard Henry WILLIAMS in 1907. She died 21 March 1980.
Richard Henry WILLIAMS Snr was born in 1887 Hoxton, London and died in 1935. He was an engineer, general labourer, tradesman in gold and silver and a sergeant major in the British army.
The 5 children of Richard and Lottie are as follows:
1. Richard Henry Williams
b. 10 July 1907 Hoxton, Shoreditch, London
Arrived Australia 1922 (aged 15)
m. 11 May 1929 in Mackay Queensland to Mary Ellen O'Connor
d, 24 Dec 1969 Bankstown NSW of Lymphatic Leukaemia
He was a warrant Officer in the Royal Australian Air Force from 5/2/1941 to 4/10/1945
He was a cook, fireman, deckhand, ferryman and bridge carpenter.
He was a teller of tall stories and a fine singer.
2. Florence Daisy Williams
b. 21 Oct 1910 (6 months old on the 1911 census)
m. 19 July 1930 to Henry Wakefield
d. about July 1988
1950 lived 64 Mildmay Grove Islington with her husband and her mother Lottie
3. Lottie Alma Williams
b. 31 Dec 1914 Shoreditch (too late for 1911 census)
m. 1938 to Charles F NUNN
d. about June 1983 in Shoreditch
4. Albert (Bert) A. G. Williams
b. about October 1916
5. George Ernest Williams
b. about July 1919 Shoreditch
m. 1942 to Winifred M ALGER
lived 1950 at 66 Mildmay Grove Islington
Divorced after 1950
d. about 1988 in house fire
Staff Sergeant in WW2
Confusion arises with names because of the use only of middle names and also the use of abbreviations like Lottie for Charlotte. You will see that I have used information I have gleaned from your posts to fill out George Ernest's details. It is harder to find people after the 1911 census. You now have enough information to extend your family tree back a few more generations by looking at other family trees on Ancestry using the names of George Ernest's grandparents. Unfortunately I have not been able to get anywhere with Richard Henry Snrs parents - too common a name. If you get any further with his parents, please let me know. My name is Catherine.
Cheers from Sydney Australia!
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Hi smalldux
Welcome to Rootschat
jsavage00 hasn't been online here for a couple of months but should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully comeback sson..
Dawn
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It seems that George Ernest Williams parents were actually born as Henry and Lottie (NOT Richard Henry and Charlotte as they called themselves later). I have ordered their marriage Certificate to get information about Henry's parents.
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Hello
Found this old conversation here Re: George Ernest Williams
My father in law was Ernest Walter Williams
His father was Ernest Peter Williams
Ernest Peter's brother was George Ernest Williams born 1920 & died 1992
Their father was Walter Henry Williams born 1874
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Henry and Flo were my grandparents and George my great uncle.