RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: newmodernist on Wednesday 12 August 15 19:41 BST (UK)
-
My great-grandmother Margaret Cowan was married to George Orr on March 23 1913 at St. Anne's in Belfast - her father was listed on the certificate as Robert Cowan labourer and her age was given as 22, meaning she was born around 1891.
I've found a birth for a Margaret Cowan to a Robert Cowan and Mary Ann McKay in December of 1891, but I can't find Robert and Mary Ann's marriage, or anything else about the family.
I also found a birth for a Maggie Cowan to a Robert Cowan and a Selina Hunter in March of 1894. There was a family bible I found in my mother's possession that had Margaret's parents listed as Robert Cowan and Selina (with no last name) listed, and my grandfather's birth certificate stated that a Selina was present at the birth.
Could a marriage certificate be that incorrect about a birthdate? Is it possible I have the wrong marriage? I know for sure her name was Margaret Cowan and he was George Orr - and I can't find another marriage for those names!
-
1891 Robert Cowan
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FY4R-659
Mary Anne M'Kay
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FY45-7Y6
-
Robert Cowan 1893
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYCQ-325
Selina Hunter
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYCQ-PN1
-
Hi newmodernist,
In answer to your question - Could a marriage certificate be that incorrect about a birthdate?
I would say definitely yes.
The marriage certificate info would be as accurate as the information provided by the bride/groom.
In this case it's not a birthdate, actually it's the age of the bride - splitting hairs ::) I know- but I'm just clarifying with you that the date of birth is not on the cert....Is it?
So Margaret Cowan might have said she was 22 but she could have been 19 or 20 or 26 or......???
I've come across a few women who shaved some years off their real age to become younger.
Margaret has perhaps added a few years on. Wonder if she had to get parental/maternal consent to marry if she was under 21.
So while this is not proof that your Margaret is the daughter of Robert and Selina - it is not impossible.
Looby
-
Hi newmodernist,
In answer to your question - Could a marriage certificate be that incorrect about a birthdate?
I would say definitely yes.
The marriage certificate info would be as accurate as the information provided by the bride/groom.
In this case it's not a birthdate, actually it's the age of the bride - splitting hairs ::) I know- but I'm just clarifying with you that the date of birth is not on the cert....Is it?
So Margaret Cowan might have said she was 22 but she could have been 19 or 20 or 26 or......???
I've come across a few women who shaved some years off their real age to become younger.
Margaret has perhaps added a few years on. Wonder if she had to get parental/maternal consent to marry if she was under 21.
So while this is not proof that your Margaret is the daughter of Robert and Selina - it is not impossible.
Looby
This is good to know. I'm 99% sure now that Selena Hunter was the mother of Margaret Cowan as I pulled my grandfather's birth certificate from storage and found it listed a Selena Cowan as being present at the birth. So now I guess my job is to see if there are any other George Orr's who married Margaret Cowans aside from the one in 1913 where the ages (you're correct, there was no birthdate, only an age) match better. If not, I guess she lied because she didn't have permission to wed.
-
Now the interesting part is the only Selena and Robert Cowan I can find are here on this census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Convention_Street/224758/
where clearly James would've been born much prior to the marriage found of Selena Hunter and Robert Cowan in 1893.
-
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Methuen_Street/1218521/
-
Just to verify the children born after 1901
John 1903
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/31264a1104071
Maria 1908
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/ed3ce90513446
Edward 1905
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/c1c7b50883512
while the census states children are sons to head of household does not mean they are all Selina's children he could have been a widower with young children when he married Selina.
-
possible death for Robert in 1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRJ7-F2K
-
Hi again.
Yes it looks like John . Emily and Aunt Jane or Ann Jane were all born before the 1893 marriage of Robert and Selina. They could have had children before the marriage or they could have been Robert's to a first wife or Selina' s either to a first husband or other man.
I would tend to consider that Selina was their stepmother and look for their births.
John and Emily Cowan were according to the 1911 Census born in Glasgow Scotland. Their births will be on Scotlands People website where for a small cost you can view the original birth record which will have their mother and father's names and the date and place of their marriage. Phew....
Looby :)
-
Two separate threads are morphing.
See for more replies
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728144.18
-
Yes, really best to have only 1 thread for the same topic.
A bit more information-
Robert Cowan (c1865 Cavan-24 Feb.1911) m.1 Jane, m.2 (12 Mar.1893) Selina Hunter (c1868 Down/Belfast-21 Apr.1931)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Robert Cowan, age 47, died 24 Feb.1911 Royal Victoria Hospital, buried 26 Feb.1911
Dundonald Cemetery (C1 319)- Selina Cowan, age 60, 32 Central Ave., died 21 Apr.1931, buried 23 Apr.1931. Margaret Orr, age 51, 16 Central Ave., died 21 July 1945, buried 24 July 1945
1. Emily (c1886 Glasgow)
2. James (c1888 Glasgow/Belfast-aft.1911)
3. Ann Jane (c1890 Belfast/Glasgow)- possible burial record for Ann Jane
4. Margaret/Maggie Cowan (c1891/19 Mar.1894 Belfast) m.(23 Mar.1913 St. Anne’s Belfast) George Orr.
5. Robert (21 Mar.1895 Belfast)
6. Samuel (27 Mar.1897 Belfast-11 Feb.1900 Belfast)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Saml Cowan, age 3, 27 Central St., died 11 Feb.1900 Royal Hospital, buried 13 Feb.1900
7. David (5 June 1899 Belfast-5 Oct.1900 Belfast)
8. Selina (17 Feb.1902 Belfast-10 July 1903 Belfast)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Selina Cowan, age 14 months, 56 Methuen St., died 11 July 1903, buried 13 July 1903
9. John (23 Feb.1903 Belfast)
10. Edward (17 Apr.1905 Belfast)- several possible burials for Edward
11. William (17 Mar.1907-7 Mar.1908)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- William Cowan, age 1, 54 Methuen St., died 7 Mar.1908, buried 9 Mar.1908
12. Maria (6 Dec.1908 Belfast)
13. Victoria (12 July 1911-4 Nov.1930)
Dundonald Cemetery (E5 689)- Victoria Cowan, age 19, 129 Severn St., died 4 Nov.1930,buried 6 Nov.1930 (3 other burials in plot)
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/burialSearch.aspx
-
To clarify the OP.
If Margaret Cowan was the same girl who married George Orr on 23 Mar 1913, it means she turned 19yrs just a few days beforehand.
Edit:
Of course she is... she is buried in the same plot as her parents.. Doh !
-
Easy to get confused with information being posted in two different places ;)
-
Two separate threads are morphing.
See for more replies
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728144.18
Sorry, that was my fault. Prior to my proving Selina was Robert's wife, I found that census and thought it odd that there was an Aunt Jane. Turns out it is indeed Ann Jane. :)
-
Yes, really best to have only 1 thread for the same topic.
A bit more information-
Robert Cowan (c1865 Cavan-24 Feb.1911) m.1 Jane, m.2 (12 Mar.1893) Selina Hunter (c1868 Down/Belfast-21 Apr.1931)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Robert Cowan, age 47, died 24 Feb.1911 Royal Victoria Hospital, buried 26 Feb.1911
Dundonald Cemetery (C1 319)- Selina Cowan, age 60, 32 Central Ave., died 21 Apr.1931, buried 23 Apr.1931. Margaret Orr, age 51, 16 Central Ave., died 21 July 1945, buried 24 July 1945
1. Emily (c1886 Glasgow)
2. James (c1888 Glasgow/Belfast-aft.1911)
3. Ann Jane (c1890 Belfast/Glasgow)- possible burial record for Ann Jane
4. Margaret/Maggie Cowan (c1891/19 Mar.1894 Belfast) m.(23 Mar.1913 St. Anne’s Belfast) George Orr.
5. Robert (21 Mar.1895 Belfast)
6. Samuel (27 Mar.1897 Belfast-11 Feb.1900 Belfast)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Saml Cowan, age 3, 27 Central St., died 11 Feb.1900 Royal Hospital, buried 13 Feb.1900
7. David (5 June 1899 Belfast-5 Oct.1900 Belfast)
8. Selina (17 Feb.1902 Belfast-10 July 1903 Belfast)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- Selina Cowan, age 14 months, 56 Methuen St., died 11 July 1903, buried 13 July 1903
9. John (23 Feb.1903 Belfast)
10. Edward (17 Apr.1905 Belfast)- several possible burials for Edward
11. William (17 Mar.1907-7 Mar.1908)
Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground)- William Cowan, age 1, 54 Methuen St., died 7 Mar.1908, buried 9 Mar.1908
12. Maria (6 Dec.1908 Belfast)
13. Victoria (12 July 1911-4 Nov.1930)
Dundonald Cemetery (E5 689)- Victoria Cowan, age 19, 129 Severn St., died 4 Nov.1930,buried 6 Nov.1930 (3 other burials in plot)
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/burialSearch.aspx
This is INCREDIBLE. Thank you so much. I didn't know about that website - so now I've added it to my bookmarks!
-
It's what happens on RC Newmodernist.
Although you asked a simple question, you got a whole load of answers, which just happened to be the answers you were looking for on your other thread.. LOL
At least you know now that Robert Cowan was married twice.
-
I actually bought the marriage certificate today - and it listed him as a widower - then I came home and found so much else had been sorted!
-
Just to clarify this-
Edit:
Of course she is... she is buried in the same plot as her parents.. Doh !
Margaret Orr is buried in same plot in Dundonald Cemetery as Selina Cowan but Robert Cowan is buried in a public plot in the City Cemetery.