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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: grizzly1 on Tuesday 25 August 15 21:52 BST (UK)
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Im doing some family research on the Fenian Joseph Poole who was Hung in what is now Griffith College in December 1883.
I have a vast amount of info on his extended family etc ..but I dont have much on his siblings which I believe there may have been apprx 8.
Would any of the knowledgeable people looking in possibly be able to name them for me ?
Im planning a visit to Kilmainham Gaol next week with a relative of Joseph's and would like to have a few more pieces of the Puzzle for them as they basically knew nothing of the Lad.
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http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IRL-DUBLIN/2012-02/1328205354
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re the above article i cant see how Joseph born circa 1856 could be a brother to the others.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM3H-26K
Frederick Poole and Maria Madden these look more likely to have taken part in 1916
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fzq/
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Joseph's marriage 1880 showing his parents
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1881-1904_ma_0507
http://www.nga.ie/Fenians-Invincibles-Joseph_Poole.php
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There are a few children to that couple ( his parents) but a lot of different spellings of Fanning
According to An Phoblacht his brothers were
Christy Vincent and Patrick and nephew John (all 1916 active)
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Thomas 1847
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d20e780248862
Jane 1850
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/6d741e0237385
Frances Ann 1853
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/5009a60239155
Joseph 1855
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8190480378998
Samuel 1858
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d0e7130380917
Frederick 1865
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d612270189357
No Christy Vincent or Patrick so is this the correct family?
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There is a family with a Christy, Vincent and Patrick
Parents Frederick and Mary J Madden but no Joseph.
Looks like a bit of licence has been taken with the Poole story.
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my sentiments exactly Sinann.
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my sentiments exactly Sinann.
Yes I hit posted too soon, got interrupted,
As dathai also found
Or words to that effect should have finished off my post.
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Christy, Vincent, Patrick and John Poole all have Military Archives Pension Files
Not sure if the online record gives much in the way of family info but some of them served in the British Army so there might be something to find there.
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/brief.aspx
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Joseph's marriage 1880 showing his parents
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1881-1904_ma_0507
http://www.nga.ie/Fenians-Invincibles-Joseph_Poole.php
Strange thing is records show that a guy called L'amie was a Castle Informer and was instrumental in Joe's conviction, its recorded that he was Joes Brother in law..he lived at Crampton court also.?
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Let me try to throw some light with what I have.
Regs the Citizen Army men, Vincent, John,Christhopher..I believe they may be Joe's nephews.
I think they are the sons of John and Mary Jane Madden.
The Poole family were mostly centred around the North Inner city at a variety of address's.
they were mostly Painters going back to Fredrick Poole d-o-b circa 1800.
My Friends grandfather was Edward Michael Poole dob 1908.
his father was also Edward Joseph Poole who married Mary Ann Walsh in 1907 an address at Stafford St was given, Fredrick Poole witness.
Edward Joseph Poole was born in 1883 at the Rotunda.
His parents were Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge/Ledwith..occupation Painter address at Temple St.
Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge were both born circa 1860.
they married in Pro Cathedral in 1876.
His fathers name was Charles mother Charlotte Smyth.
Nerneys court as address for Groom.
(Edward had brother charles who married in Pro Cathedral in 1882 Edward was witness)
Charles Poole Dob circa 1833 marrys Charlotte Smyth 21-12-1854.
Parents Fredrick Poole -Mary Drake (Painter)
address at Great Britain St.
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Let me try to throw some light with what I have.
Regs the Citizen Army men, Vincent, John,Christhopher..I believe they may be Joe's nephews.
I think they are the sons of John and Mary Jane Madden.
The Poole family were mostly centred around the North Inner city at a variety of address's.
they were mostly Painters going back to Fredrick Poole d-o-b circa 1800.
My Friends grandfather was Edward Michael Poole dob 1908.
his father was also Edward Joseph Poole who married Mary Ann Walsh in 1907 an address at Stafford St was given, Fredrick Poole witness.
Edward Joseph Poole was born in 1883 at the Rotunda.
His parents were Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge/Ledwith..occupation Painter address at Temple St.
Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge were both born circa 1860.
they married in Pro Cathedral in 1876.
His fathers name was Charles mother Charlotte Smyth.
Nerneys court as address for Groom.
(Edward had brother charles who married in Pro Cathedral in 1882 Edward was witness)
Charles Poole Dob circa 1833 marrys Charlotte Smyth 21-12-1854.
Parents Fredrick Poole -Mary Drake (Painter)
address at Great Britain St.
I think I may be right in saying that one of Fredrick and Mary Drakes children was Fredrick Dob circa 1826..Fredrick married Sophia Fanning and among their children is Joseph born 1855.
They also have another son called Charles dob 1833...this Charles would be my link to Joseph the Fenian.
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Let me try to throw some light with what I have.
Regs the Citizen Army men, Vincent, John,Christhopher..I believe they may be Joe's nephews.
I think they are the sons of John and Mary Jane Madden.
The Poole family were mostly centred around the North Inner city at a variety of address's.
they were mostly Painters going back to Fredrick Poole d-o-b circa 1800.
My Friends grandfather was Edward Michael Poole dob 1908.
his father was also Edward Joseph Poole who married Mary Ann Walsh in 1907 an address at Stafford St was given, Fredrick Poole witness.
Edward Joseph Poole was born in 1883 at the Rotunda.
His parents were Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge/Ledwith..occupation Painter address at Temple St.
Edward Poole and Teresa Lewidge were both born circa 1860.
they married in Pro Cathedral in 1876.
His fathers name was Charles mother Charlotte Smyth.
Nerneys court as address for Groom.
(Edward had brother charles who married in Pro Cathedral in 1882 Edward was witness)
Charles Poole Dob circa 1833 marrys Charlotte Smyth 21-12-1854.
Parents Fredrick Poole -Mary Drake (Painter)
address at Great Britain St.
I think I may be right in saying that one of Fredrick and Mary Drakes children was Fredrick Dob circa 1826..Fredrick married Sophia Fanning and among their children is Joseph born 1855.
They also have another son called Charles dob 1833...this Charles would be my link to Joseph the Fenian...making Charles Joe Pooles uncle.??
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William Lamie was married to Josephs sister ?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ea77db0079839
William L'Amie
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYS1-GZJ
Sophia Poole
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYSY-CYZ
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location of Joseph Poole's birth place
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fzu/
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It says here down bottom of page that the informers received various amounts from
£1000 to about £60. Those who received £60 also got paid passage however Lamie
got £250 no mention of passage.
http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1892-alice-carroll
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William Lamie was married to Josephs sister ?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ea77db0079839
William L'Amie
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYS1-GZJ
Sophia Poole
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FYSY-CYZ
same address as Joe gave on his marriage cert in 1880.
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It says here down bottom of page that the informers received various amounts from
£1000 to about £60. Those who received £60 also got paid passage however Lamie
got £250 no mention of passage.
http://victorianripper.niceboard.org/t1892-alice-carroll
There were several variations of Rewards offered for the apprehension/conviction of 'the Invincibles' involved in the 'Phoenix Park Killings'
The largest was £10,000..( 1 of the Invincibles,james Fitzharris 'skin the goat' had this offered to him but he turned it down)
It turned out that there were 6 men involved who turned informer,including the infamous Carey and his brother Peter..I think Carey and family was relocated with apprx £100 before he was killed on board a ship off the coast of Sth Africa.
I also believe that L'amie offered evidence in Josephs Trial which wasnt directly linked to the Phoenix park killing therfore he wouldnt have received a large 'reward' as such.
Its seems L'amie was a long time 'Tout' for Dublin Castle, most likely recieving small amounts over a period of time.
I was thinking of carrying out a little bit of research as to what became of him.
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I wonder what became of Sophia regard's family relationships after Joseph's execution.
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Vincent Poole's death Certificate is on his pension record, d.25 June 1955 74 years so if the age is correct. Birth year of 1881 which matches with the Vincent Poole born to Frederick and Mary J Madden in 1881
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g00/
Their eldest child born 1874 which matches with the Poole Madden marriage of 1873 where you can't see the first names of the couple.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/4ebf640066623
But the parents of Poole are Frederick and Mary,
So clearly Frederick Poole who married Madden is not Joseph Poole's brother, ( his brother Frederick was only born 1865) but could be a cousin.
So the 1916 Poole boys are not Joseph Poole's brothers or nephews but could be his cousin's sons.
Does that make sense?
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Another daughter for William and Sophia http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/cd25100238252
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Is it possible that Frederick was married twice ?
ie to Sophie Fanning first and then to Mary Madden.
All the newspaper articles state that Vincent, Christopher & Patrick were brothers of Joseph's.
If the above scenario is correct it would make them half brothers.
I suppose the only way to know is to get an actual certificate for the Poole / Madden marriage !
Tara
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Sophia Poole appears to have died in 1872 so the timing would be correct for the Poole / Madden marriage in 1873.
Tara
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I also noted a Fanning as the Best Man on the 1873 Poole / Madden marriage.
Could be just a coincidence or the first wife's family giving their blessing ::)
Tara
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OH Fascinating read.
William Laime (spelling ?) was a Hugenot who was trying to marry Frederick Poole's daughter in 1869.
Frederick didn't think it was a good idea based on the differing religions.
A fight of sorts broke out and William ended up stabbing Frederick.
Tara
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Grizzly
By the way . . .
Joseph is listed as a TAILOR
. . . as was his father Frederick.
Tara
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Sorry
I forgot to attach the article.
Tara
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Newspaper states that . . .
Joseph's last 'interview' was with his father, aunt, sister and two friends, the interview being a most affecting one.
None of the relatives of the 'convict' were noticeable in the crowd (on the day of his execution).
Poole made no statement and left no written document of any kind behind him.
Tara
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William Lamie's sworn oath was that Joseph Poole killed John Kenny.
His own brother in law.
How did Joseph's sister handle all this ?
Tara
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I take it that Joseph never married !
Tara
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BINGO
MY theory re Joseph's father remarrying are correct.
So, Joseph was the son of Frederick Poole and Sophia Fanning.
Vincent, Patrick and Christopher were his half brothers ~ their mother being Mary Madden.
During the 1882 courtcase is is stated that Joseph's father and STEPMOTHER were present.
Tara
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Tara see reply 3 yesterday re Josephs marriage
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I saw that BUT
there is NO mention of a wife and kids on any of the newspaper articles.
The court case also states that he was lodging with two men at the time of the murder.
'Tis Confusing !
Tara
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I can't get over this William Lamie chap.
Joseph was even Godfather to one of his daughters.
???
Tara
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Just to note:
William Lamie was also a tailor !
Tara
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Interesting !
Tara
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UGH
It's all so sad.
William's wife and father had to be sent out of the country
Tara
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Sophia Poole died 1872 age 40
Frederick died 1895 age 75 both buried Glasnevin.
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Joseph's wife died 6 months after they married Dathai.
That explains things.
Tara
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William Lamie is buried in Glasnevin ~ died 1885.
Tara
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William Lamie is buried in Glasnevin ~ died 1885.
Tara
Just a thought,is it possible that this 'may' be William Lamie Father, any age for him ?
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No,
It's William alright ~ age 40.
William's father was called John.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/07ef7c0227709
Tara
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OK Scratch the last post.
There was another William Lamie who was a tobacconist at King Street.
It was this William who is buried in Glasnevin in 1885.
It is HIS wife on the 1901 Census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street_South/1343013/
So, there is a good chance that Sophia stayed abroad after 1883 when the Government sent her and her father in law on the boat to Liverpool.
Tara
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This attachment just to show the 'other' William Lamie.
Tara
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OK Scratch the last post.
There was another William Lamie who was a tobacconist at King Street.
It was this William who is buried in Glasnevin in 1885.
It is HIS wife on the 1901 Census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street_South/1343013/
So, there is a good chance that Sophia stayed abroad after 1883 when the Government sent her and her father in law on the boat to Liverpool.
Tara
Then what of their daughter elizabeth lamie who is on the 1901 census at the newsagents with mum 'elizabeth' who is also a widower...? could Sophia have changed her name..on the 1911 census she does not give any info apart from the fact she is a widower..
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NOPE
William the 'informer' was a tailor as it appears was his father George.
The OTHER William was a tobacconist who was married to Elizabeth and had a daughter called Elizabeth.
Just a coincidence that they both had a daughter called Elizabeth.
William the tobacconist's daughter Elizabeth was born 1879.
William the informer's daughter Elizabeth was born 1881.
Tara
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Well
I should say that there are two William's born abt 3 years apart on irishgenealogy.
One son of John, one son of George.
I posted earlier that William the informer was a Tailor.
I then found a record of a George Lamie on 1881 Slaters whom was also a Tailor and am making the presumption was William the informer was the son of George and not John.
I suppose that's beside the point as the Elizabeth on the 1901 Census HAD to have been the wife of William the tobacconist and NOT William the informer.
Hope that makes sense ;D
Tara
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Elizabeth daughter of William the informer
First name(s) Eliza
Last name Lamie
Registration year 1881
Registered quarter/year Apr - Jun 1881
Registration district Dublin South
Volume 2
Page 721
Elizabeth daughter of William the tobacconist
First name(s) Elizabeth Frances
Last name Lamie
Registration year 1879
Registered quarter/year Jan - Mar 1879
Registration district Dublin South
Volume 2
Page 760
Tara
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Hmm i wonder
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X958-H8X
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Wowzers Dathai
Good Work ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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ancestry.co.uk are FREE for UK records this weekend.
Worth following up !
Tara
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I don't know was this child of Sophia's posted.
son Frederick
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a4d2ae0079061
Tara
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There was a Sophia Lamie born 1874 died 1880.
I don't see her in Glasnevin though !
Tara
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Fredericks sponsor above was Joseph's future wife
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It's why I find it so hard to reconcile what William did to Joseph.
Oh to know the full story.
Tara
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I would say that Mallon put a lot of pressure on Lamie as you already posted he did try to get out of the country before the trial.
He may have threatened to expose him as an informer and Lamie's life would be under threat if he had no protection from the police,you would need to go into the police files at the archives to get the full gist of what was being said.
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That's my point Dathai.
At this point we only know what was reported in the newspapers and we know how true to fact they are (sarcasm) ;D
I'm sure there is a movie / book that could be made out of this Poole / Lamie family.
Did Sophia stay in England, did she emmigrate further.
Did William join her after his release in 1883 ?
They certainly don't appear on the records / newspapers, or not that I can see.
Did they change their identities . . .
The questions go on and on . . .
It's a tragic love story, a couple who fought so hard to marry despite their different religions, despite her father's objections, despite her father stabbing her husband.
For Sophia's brother to be hung, in some part at the hands of her husband.
For Sophia to be sent, on a boat with her father inlaw to England, away from her family and friends, for we can only presume her protection.
Did William and Sophia reconcile ~ Did they go on to have a family abroad ?
. . . I'm just intrigued with it all :o
Tara
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the police files can be very informative some have a form K with them which usually has the prisoners photograph and physical details address etc.
as my brother did when researching our greatgrandfather Matthew O'Neill he looked at Matthews file then believe it or not he went through every man's file that was arrested with him in 1866 this threw up two informers who named Matthew as a head centre for Dublin,it took my brother six months of constant research to find all this.
So any one going there should always check the files of associates of the person you are researching.
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I was helping someone else with their Fenian ancestors and he had a pic of the man in question in his later years.
Anyway, we went through the pics that are available of the Fenian prisoners and lo and behold there was his ancestor !
Tara
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http://digitalcollections.nypl.org/collections/thomas-a-larcom-photographs-collection-1857-1866-mountjoy-prison#/?tab=navigation
Tara
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I would say that Mallon put a lot of pressure on Lamie as you already posted he did try to get out of the country before the trial.
He may have threatened to expose him as an informer and Lamie's life would be under threat if he had no protection from the police,you would need to go into the police files at the archives to get the full gist of what was being said.
Can only Imagine the pressure Mallon was under, he played a masterstroke in playing with the mind of Carey..he brought another prisoner who had 'turned; into the prison yard while Carey was walking about and held in in small talk in full view of Carey..Carey became paranoid and then decided that he would take advantage of the deal on offer before someone else did ..it was then he decided to inform and inform he did giving every detail of the Park Killing and the working of the Invincibles and the Inner circle..
Mallon also attempted to Bribe friends and relatives of the other prisoners in an attempt to implicate Joseph.
I suppose its no wonder Mallon received £1,000 of the reward Kitty.
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Sophia Poole 24th May 1852 St Michans (looks like Bole )
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.michans_mf_1842-1869_ba_0034
which means Sophia was 16/17 getting married to William L'Amie age 23 in 1869
Frederick William 28th Feb 1849
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/20f3600249615
died age 11 in 1861 buried Glasnevin
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This lads name appears to be Peter or Christopher
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d20e780248862
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.michans_mf_1850-1869_ba_0856
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Sophia Poole 24th May 1852 St Michans (looks like Bole )
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.michans_mf_1842-1869_ba_0034
which means Sophia was 16/17 getting married to William L'Amie age 23 in 1869
Frederick William 28th Feb 1849
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/20f3600249615
died age 11 in 1861 buried Glasnevin
Apart from been a 'Huegonot' another reason why Fredrick disapproved of the marriage perhaps..?
William Lamie busy man during 1883, i found reference yesterday fopr him giving evidence at a high profile trial in Scotland regards 'Dynamiteyards', he had also given evidence in another Trial of a man called 'Fetherstone'...The day he gave evidence in Scottish trial was a day after his Brother in Law Joseph had been hung in Dublin...(the 'Dynamitards' were found Guilty and sentenced to Life, some who played a minor part were given lesser sentences)
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ancestry.co.uk if free for UK records this weeked.
That William Lamie in England isn't the chap we are looking for.
Shame :'(
Tara
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Grizzly
Do you remember the article we talked about where William Lamie said that he left Ireland shortly after 1868 and didn't come back for about 10 years I think it was /
Anyway, age is slightly out BUT this HAS to be him !
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBFM-2S2
Who is the unmarried lady and child Lamie with him ???
Tara
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I'm not sure if this is a duplicate but there are some different names on it.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBF9-3HZ
Tara
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1891 William Lamie a tailor, born 1837 Dublin is in England married to a Mary from Ballymoney.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7QWC-KPZ
HUM
I'll keep routing to see if I can find anything to prove it's our chap.
Tara
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Have you see this Grizzly !?
https://www.facebook.com/ClanNaGael1/posts/789213407794699:0
Tara
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Just had a quick look through Liverpool marriages and census....
The William Lamie (Tailor brn c1837 Dublin) married 1st in 1861 to Margaret Ann Hands, she dies 1869 he then goes on to marry Ellen Sarah Hale in 1870, then she dies 1872 he goes on to marry Mary Jane McFarlane 1876 - didn't have much luck with wivess did he?????
Given that the William in question didn't leave Ireland until after 1868, I don't think this is your man.
Angie
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Hi There
Did a father's name come up on any of those marriages ?
Tara
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There was a statement that William left Dublin shortly after joining the Fenians in 1867 / 68.
That's not to say that he wasn't out of the country prior to this too.
There are a LOT of coincidences in these two men, same name, same occupation, same POB, slight variation in age.
Liverpool thrown up intrigued me as we know that William's Dublin wife and father were sent to Liverpool while he was in court informing.
Of course a lot of coincidences don't make it foolproof that they are the same person.
I shall keep routing about ;D
Tara
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Oh
Were churches mentioned on any of those marriages ?
Tara
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Hi Tara,
William Lamie
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 17 Jun 1861
Parish: Liverpool, St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Margaret Ann Hands
Father's name: William Lamie
Spouse Father's Name: Joseph Hands
Reference Number: 283 NIC/3/58
ame: William Lamie
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Widowed
Age: 40
Birth Date: 1836
Marriage Date: 3 Nov 1876
Marriage Place: Holy Trinity, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: William Lamie
Spouse: Mary Jane Mcfarlane
FHL Film Number: 1656017
Reference ID: p 64 no 128
Name: William Lamie
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 23 May 1870
Marriage Place: St Matthew, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: William Lamie
Spouse: Ellen Sarah Hale
FHL Film Number: 1545929
Kind Regards
Angie
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Hi Angie
Thanks so much for that.
They sound like Catholic churches which would rule out the informer William.
I am working on the presumption, for now, that William's father was called George, so the Liverpool chap doesn't sound like one and the same chap now.
Possibly an uncle or cousin . . .
Thanks Anyway
Back To The Drawing Board ;D
Tara
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Tara
William Lamie was born 23rd Nov 1845inCrampton Court ,Dame St Father John.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KM7V-BWK
http://comeheretome.com/2011/11/07/3-crampton-court-2/
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-326-1-5-011
He married Sophia Poole in 1869 and had children in Dublin 1871 1879 and 1881
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William gives evidence in the Scottish Trial that he left Dublin for Liverpool in 1868 but returned to Dublin after a month.
Its very possible that he may have had Relatives in Liverpool, this would also explain his Father and Sofia heading there when he was arrested.
I realise that Liverpool was a gateway to America, Canada, Australia, due to cheaper and more frequent Ships..But the fact that many of those who were 'MAIN' Players in the Park Killings had problems finding commonwealth countries accepting them makes me think that Lamie wife and Father kept their 'head down' in England along with their William..its possible that William was been kept 'on the hook' for use in Further trials that may have been in the Pipeline, therefore I couldnt see the Authorities letting him stray too far...like a dog on a leash.
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Today I think I have confirmed through the Purchase of a Marriage and Birth Cert that Sophia and Daughter returned to Dublin by 1901.
Sophia I believe used an Alias, her Daughter Elizabeth married in 1902 on her marriage cert she gives her fathers name as William Lamie, they were also on the 1911 Census were Sophia under her Alias states she is a widow, she also states she is a Widow in 1901.
On the marriage cert it doesnt state that her father William is alive or dead.
While looking up the death register 1883 the year of Joes execution was a terrible year for the Pooles,
I found 4 deaths of young members of the family.
Henry aged 3 died in the first quarter of 1883
Charlotte aged 1 in the 2nd Qtr of 1883
Esther aged 18 also in the 2nd Qtr of 1883
Charles aged 5 died in 4th Qtr of 1883.
Joe was the executed in December 1883..
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Hi, wow! All the research you have done is amazing. I'm researching my family tree, I'm a descendent of Eliza L'amie who had a brother called William. I've been looking into the L'amie's today and come across this William L'amie the informer and I think this is Eliza's brother. Eliza's father was a tailor called John and her mother was Mary. They lived in Crampton court in Dublin and were Protestants. I found this baptism certificate this afternoon
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-326-1-5-011
As I'd never heard of William before I thought I'd see if there was anything I could find on him to give me more information on John and Mary I couldn't believe what I was reading. Then I found this thread and it's been so informative. Eliza had moved to Liverpool years before all this trouble, she got married in Liverpool in 1859 and the last record I've found of her is on her son's birth certificate in 1875.
What I can't understand is how he was accepted into the Fenian brotherhood if he was a protestant. He sounds like a weasel, to stab Frederick and to inform on his brother in law, what a sod! It'd be good to know what went on between them all and what Sophia thought of it all.
I was wondering if you have the dates for the newspaper articles?
Thanks
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Hi Vonnie, great that you have found this post,
Im really interested in finding out what happened to William Lamie after he finished giving evidence,I have shared info with a Historian who has carried out extensive research on the Poole family and I would love to finish the research with knowing what became of William.
I believe it was Frederick who may have 'stabbed' William or least it may have happened during a scuffle between the 2.
Frederick disapproved of Sophia relationship with William maybe because of the age difference, he was in his late 20s and she was a teen, perhaps 15-16.
Regs William's acceptance into the Fenians religion would not have been a factor as many of Ireland greatest Patriots were not Catholic.
I believe I have Found Sophia and her daughter in Dublin in the 1901 and 1911 census, though Sophia looks to have changed her christian name for security/personal reasons.
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Frederick William Poole and Sophia Fannin had 9 children. One son was Joseph (Joe) Poole born 26 Aug 1855. Joe's sister Sophia, born 1852, married William Lamie in 1869. William Lamie testified against Joe in his murder case. Joe's wife Elizabeth, nee Hanley, died 2 years before Joe's hanging on 18 Dec 1883. Frederick William Poole died 3 Aug 1895 of Epithelioma of the mouth.
Joe's siblings were: Thomas, born 1847, Frederick William Nassau, born 1849, Mary Jane, b 1850, Sophia, b 1852, Frances Anne, b 1853, Charles, b 1857, Samuel, b 1858 and a second Frederick William Nassau, b 1865.
Sophia died and Frederick married Mary Jane Madden 20 April 1873 and they had:
John (Jack) Denis, b 1874, Christopher Damian Dominic, b 1875, Patrick Joseph, b 1877, David, b 1879, Vincent, b 1881 and Mary Agnes, b 1884.
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Frederick William Poole and Sophia Fannin had 9 children. One son was Joseph (Joe) Poole born 26 Aug 1855. Joe's sister Sophia, born 1852, married William Lamie in 1869. William Lamie testified against Joe in his murder case. Joe's wife Elizabeth, nee Hanley, died 2 years before Joe's hanging on 18 Dec 1883. Frederick William Poole died 3 Aug 1895 of Epithelioma of the mouth.
Joe's siblings were: Thomas, born 1847, Frederick William Nassau, born 1849, Mary Jane, b 1850, Sophia, b 1852, Frances Anne, b 1853, Charles, b 1857, Samuel, b 1858 and a second Frederick William Nassau, b 1865.
Sophia died and Frederick married Mary Jane Madden 20 April 1873 and they had:
John (Jack) Denis, b 1874, Christopher Damian Dominic, b 1875, Patrick Joseph, b 1877, David, b 1879, Vincent, b 1881 and Mary Agnes, b 1884.
Thank you Cariboo..would you know when and where William Lamie died.?
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I think a lot of people are trying to figure out what happened to William Lamie. All I know is that he was "spirited away". I have been unable to find him, Sophia or any of their children in 1901 and 1911 census.
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Joseph Poole was a Dublin Taylor, executed in yard in Richmond Bridewell. It's to do with the killing of a John Kenny. You can reed about this on this site. (It was said after he did not do this)
www.nga.ie
then click on graves, then Fenians, then Invincibles, then Joseph Poole
it is a good read.
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This article say he is buried in the prison grounds in an unmarked grave.
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On this site it say the Poole family in 1950'S wanted to get Joseph Poole a proper grave but they found no remains.
http://www.griffith.ie/Locations/Dublin/History-Dublin-Campus/1813-1892
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I have carried out extensive research on the Poole family dating back to the mid 1700s and uncovered some great links to the family including a world famous 'celeb' of the mid 1800's who married into the Family.
Joe's story and indeed the whole Poole family history makes for sad reading, his trial and the events leading up to it has been told by a Kilmainham jail historian called Micheal O Doibhilin.
Its called 'Joe Poole' ..'The Sixth Invincible'.
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I think a lot of people are trying to figure out what happened to William Lamie. All I know is that he was "spirited away". I have been unable to find him, Sophia or any of their children in 1901 and 1911 census.
I believe I know what happened to his Wife and children after Lamie 'disappeared'..I believe they returned to Dublin and I have found them running a Shop.
Lamie had been used in several Trials in England after he gave evidence against Joe, he was brought to Scotland and gave evidence in a Trial against a group known as 'The Dynamiters' on the very day Joe was to be hung.
I also read that Joe forgave William Lamie,I can only assume that it may have been because it was Joe who introduced him into 'The Circle' and perhaps by doing so he felt he was partially instrumental in his own downfall?? (just my own theory)
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On this site it say the Poole family in 1950'S wanted to get Joseph Poole a proper grave but they found no remains.
http://www.griffith.ie/Locations/Dublin/History-Dublin-Campus/1813-1892
I spoke to a Historian who has a keen interest in Joe's life, he came up with a very interesting theory on why the body wasnt given back to the Poole family not long after Joe was hung.
The family had requested the body return when the Prison became a Barracks, as Joseph had been sentenced to be buried in the confines of a 'Prison' and not a Barracks they probably had a good case...From records and statements of the Execution Its very possible that the Hanging was 'fluffed' and Joes neck was not broken, its very possible that he was strangled due to 'someone' present at the execution hanging onto Joes legs and pulling down while the person on the scaffold pulled on the rope..this would mean the sentence of the court was not carried out.
Now if the Doctor who was present was still alive when Joes body was returned to his family, perhaps If the family had requested an examination of the body by a independent source and that finding found he had been strangled, then those present at the Hanging may have had a case to answer in a court of law ??..not great scenario, especially due to the fact that many people including some eminent public figures believed that Joe was innocent of the crime he was executed for.
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Grizzly1......I would be very interested to know who you have going back to mid 1700's. I can only prove to Frederick William Nassau Poole of abt 1803.
Also, very interesting comments re William Lamie and his whereabouts. Where can that info be found?
I haven't read that Joe forgave Lamie but in Joe's last letter written while in prison he wrote "I forgive all those who have injured me and I hope no friends of mine will ever interfere with them in any way. Leave them to the Almighty, it is best". So I guess he included Lamie in this forgiveness.
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Hi Cariboo, basically I was asked by a friend to look into their family Tree, when the person told me her Grandfather's name and where he had lived I knew I was going to have an interesting search on my hand's so here goes regards your enquiry.
From Various sources including Church records/newpaper articles, etc and along with sourcing Birth -marriage-deaths certs from the GRO Offices in Werburgh st along with input from my good friends on this brilliant site I came up with several lead's.
My Friends Great Great Grandfather was Edward Poole d-o-b circa 1860.
His Parents Charles and Charlotte nee Smyth.
Charles was born 10-4-1833, he marries Charlotte Smyth 21-12-1854 (I have marriage cert) which gives his Father as Fredrick Poole who is a 'Painter'..the address is 140 Grt Britain St.
I found that Mary Drake was his mother.
Fredrick was born circa 1800 and the couple went on to have several children (as you are already aware of, from your previous post) including Fredrick William 1826-1895 father of Joseph,Fredrick who remarried when Mary died in 1865.
During my search I came across a ref in 'Wilsons Dublin Directory' Merchant and Trader 1801 of Edward Poole Painter and Glazier 28 Aungier St Dublin who was born 1766 and died in 1838.
Now noting the recurrence of the name Edward right through the Poole family and the fact that the whole family apart from Fredrick ( a Tailor) as late as the 1911 census were involved in the House-painting business I think its fair to assume Edward was his Father.
Fredrick also named his 2nd born son Edward.
Regard's the Lamie link.
Sophia married William and they had a daughter Elizabeth born on the 23april 1881.
the address given is 18 Crampton Court.
During or before Joe's Trial Sophia goes to England with Elizabeth.
Lamie is then brought to England where he is basically used as a 'supergrass' giving evidence in Liverpool and Scotland at the trials of Fenian 'Dynamitar's'..he then as far as I can see disappears off the face of the earth.
So then I start searching for his family.
I start with the surname 'Lamie's' on the 1901 Census and one intersting match comes up.
1901.. 4.2 Sth King St has a Elizabeth Lamie aged 50 who is a widow living with her daughter 'Elizabeth' aged 21...(William lamies daughter was born 1881?)
1911.. 4.3 Sth King St Elizabeth Lamie aged 64 widow is a newsagent.
also at the address is her daughter Elizabeth who has married a James Malone,they married in June 1902..SO I purchased their Marriage cert and on it she states her Father as WILLIAM LAMIE.
I think its fair to assume that Sophia had returned to Dublin and changed her christian name to protect herself and family from further 'publicity'.
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This is what I have on Fredrick William Nassau Poole..lets see if our info Tally's.
Born circa 1800 ..employment a house painter.
Marries Mary/Maria Drake..they have at least 6 children between 1825-41..Mary Die's circa 1841 possibly in childbirth.
In 1841-42 he remarries to Elizabeth Acton who is a widow, they have 5 children.
James William 1842
Margaret 1843
Anna Maria 1845 dies 1847
Letita Vance 1848
In 1851 Fredrick is on the Census as living at Finsbury Middlesex with Elizabeth and John from previous marraige..there is also Margaret, Letita, and Thomas aged 1 who was born St Giles in Middlesex...all the others execpt Thomas were born Dublin.
On Thomas Birth cert it gives Father's name as F.W.Poole Housepainter.
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Grizzly1 It seems I have all the same info as you on the Pooles except for the William Lamie which I will research as it is very interesting.
I have shared all my extensive Poole research with just about all the Pooles in Dublin so there is a great deal of it floating around.
As far as old Frederick's father's name goes I do know in Ireland there was traditionally a very strong naming pattern for the eldest children born into a family. The eldest son would be named after his paternal grandfather and the second son after his maternal grandfather, the third son after his father.
If this were the case with our Pooles then old Frederick's father would also have been Frederick........and Maria Drake's father would have been Edward.
Their second son, Edward, is my gr gr grandfather.
Thanks for the info you have shared.
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Grizzly1 It seems I have all the same info as you on the Pooles except for the William Lamie which I will research as it is very interesting.
I have shared all my extensive Poole research with just about all the Pooles in Dublin so there is a great deal of it floating around.
As far as old Frederick's father's name goes I do know in Ireland there was traditionally a very strong naming pattern for the eldest children born into a family. The eldest son would be named after his paternal grandfather and the second son after his maternal grandfather, the third son after his father.
If this were the case with our Pooles then old Frederick's father would also have been Frederick........and Maria Drake's father would have been Edward.
Their second son, Edward, is my gr gr grandfather.
Thanks for the info you have shared.
Do you think the Aungier street Edward 1766..was Fredricks Father ?
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Grizzly1 There is a baptism of a Frederick Poole of Castle Street at St. Werburgh, Dublin December 1773 son of Frederick Poole and Elizabeth. If our Poole family followed traditional naming patterns then our Frederick of 1808 may be the son of this Frederick and grandson of Frederick and Elizabeth.
If he was a master tailor he would be a freeman of the city and lists of freeman are in the Dublin City Archives. I don't know what info is documented when they become a freeman but it may give some family info. If you are in Dublin maybe a trip to the Archives would be worthwhile. I would do it but I'm a long, long way from there.
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Tara's reply 44 page 5 this topic
William Lamie,Tobbacconist,4 King St,South.
Glasnevin shows his burial as age 40 in 1885
so therefore the Elizabeth on 1901/1911 census is most likely his widow
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street_South/1343013/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street__South/100519/
the proof in the matter would lie in the church register for the Malone/Lamie marriage to get Elizabeth Lamie's maiden name
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/???
William Lammey and Elizabeth Frances Bagnall
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0626c20430641
terribly blurred
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000639782#page/13/mode/1up
Elizabeth Sophia Lammy born 28 Jan 1879 at 4 South King St ,civil index as Elizabeth Frances Lamie
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633497#page/87/mode/1up
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3696350248735
brother Thomas
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ae8be50240935
brother George
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c2bf0b0250566
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Tara's reply 44 page 5 this topic
William Lamie,Tobbacconist,4 King St,South.
Glasnevin shows his burial as age 40 in 1885
so therefore the Elizabeth on 1901/1911 census is most likely his widow
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street_South/1343013/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street__South/100519/
the proof in the matter would lie in the church register for the Malone/Lamie marriage to get Elizabeth Lamie's maiden name
Regs the marriage would Elizabeth Lamie's maiden name not be Lamie.??..she married James Malone in 1902.
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Tara's reply 44 page 5 this topic
William Lamie,Tobbacconist,4 King St,South.
Glasnevin shows his burial as age 40 in 1885
so therefore the Elizabeth on 1901/1911 census is most likely his widow
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street_South/1343013/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/King_Street__South/100519/
the proof in the matter would lie in the church register for the Malone/Lamie marriage to get Elizabeth Lamie's maiden name
I must purchase that death cert Dathai..I remember seeing the post but dont know why I didnt follow up on it.
I know that Lamie was years older than Sophia and that was 'one' of the reason's her father didnt want her to Marry William.
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Grizzly1 It seems I have all the same info as you on the Pooles except for the William Lamie which I will research as it is very interesting.
I have shared all my extensive Poole research with just about all the Pooles in Dublin so there is a great deal of it floating around.
As far as old Frederick's father's name goes I do know in Ireland there was traditionally a very strong naming pattern for the eldest children born into a family. The eldest son would be named after his paternal grandfather and the second son after his maternal grandfather, the third son after his father.
If this were the case with our Pooles then old Frederick's father would also have been Frederick........and Maria Drake's father would have been Edward.
Their second son, Edward, is my gr gr grandfather.
Thanks for the info you have shared.
Cariboo would Teresa Lewidge have been your great great Grandmother.?
If so are you aware of who her famous Brother was ?
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her mothers maiden name from marriage register
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Elizabeth Lamie showing on Glasnevin index 1932 age 82 when entering King St as address
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/results/index.xml
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Elizabeth Lamie showing on Glasnevin index 1932 age 82 when entering King St as address
http://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/results/index.xml
Wonder was she buried with William ??
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From Dathai
William Lammey and Elizabeth Frances Bagnall
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0626c20430641
terribly blurred
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000639782#page/13/mode/1up
Elizabeth Sophia Lammy born 28 Jan 1879 at 4 South King St ,civil index as Elizabeth Frances Lamie
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633497#page/87/mode/1up
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3696350248735
Good info Dathai............I would suggest then that the Elizabeth with daughter Elizabeth in the 1901 and 1911 census at King Street is not our Elizabeth.
William & Sophia Lamie's(Poole) daughter Elizabeth was born 23 April 1881 and baptised 9 May 1881. Back to square one, eh? I think they had 6 children. Should be able to find one of them.
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12th Oct 1845 Elizabeth Frances Bagnall left hand page
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633484#page/276/mode/1up
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/db05720193064
parents
Patrick Bagnall and Sophia Isobel Trotter marriage 1844
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/9b18890016679
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Grizzly1, I don't know who your friend is that you are researching the Poole family for but I have a facebook site Poole Family Research for sharing info about our Poole ancestors. Your friend may be interested in joining the group.
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Grizzly1, I don't know who your friend is that you are researching the Poole family for but I have a facebook site Poole Family Research for sharing info about our Poole ancestors. Your friend may be interested in joining the group.
My Friend's Grt-Grandfather was Edward Michael Poole dob 1908.
Im afraid she is not on F/b, Tbh when my Friend asked me to look into his family history,and I heard his Mother's maiden name and where they originated from (Gloucester Diamond) it started alarm bell's straight away.
Im in daily contact with historian/author who has a keen interest in Joe and the Fenian story, I wont mention his name but im sure you would be aware of it..he was once a local historian/guide for Kilmainham gaol but is now retired.
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OK, .....thank you. I have Edward Michael Poole in our Poole family...his son and his son's children. I have communicated with a couple of them.
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OK, .....thank you. I have Edward Michael Poole in our Poole family...his son and his son's children. I have communicated with a couple of them.
Sent you a Pm.
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A lot of people have wondered what happened to William Lamie and his wife Sophia Poole. His full name was Charles William St. Clair Lamie. He disappeared after the Joe Poole murder trial. Well some months ago, after a lot of searching, I located him in England and he had changed his name to Fenning. Sophia's mother's maiden name was Fannin so I think William and Sophia used that with a little change. In 1891 Sophia Fenning, 36, Wardrobe dealer, is a widow living at 365 York Road, Wandsworth, Surrey with her children Mary Jane, Frederick, William and Elizabeth. Charles William Lamie/Fenning died 6 March 1891, 43 years old, a general dealer, of bronchitis, pneumonia, asthma 22 years. His last attack of pneumonia was 10 days before his death. Sophia Fenning of 365 York Road was present at his death. In 1901 Sophia is found living at 59 Doddington Grove, Battersea in the home of her daughter Sarah and her husband, John H. Easton, and their children. Also in the home is Margaret Fenning, 12, born in Lambeth, another child of William and Sophia.
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A lot of people have wondered what happened to William Lamie and his wife Sophia Poole. His full name was Charles William St. Clair Lamie. He disappeared after the Joe Poole murder trial. Well some months ago, after a lot of searching, I located him in England and he had changed his name to Fenning. Sophia's mother's maiden name was Fannin so I think William and Sophia used that with a little change. In 1891 Sophia Fenning, 36, Wardrobe dealer, is a widow living at 365 York Road, Wandsworth, Surrey with her children Mary Jane, Frederick, William and Elizabeth. Charles William Lamie/Fenning died 6 March 1891, 43 years old, a general dealer, of bronchitis, pneumonia, asthma 22 years. His last attack of pneumonia was 10 days before his death. Sophia Fenning of 365 York Road was present at his death. In 1901 Sophia is found living at 59 Doddington Grove, Battersea in the home of her daughter Sarah and her husband, John H. Easton, and their children. Also in the home is Margaret Fenning, 12, born in Lambeth, another child of William and Sophia.
Great additional info Cariboo...though after Lamie did not disappear after he gave evidence against Joe Poole in Dublin, the authorities would again use his inside info against a group known The Scottish 'Dynamiters' at their trial in Scotland, I think he also gave evidence against some Fenians in Liverpool..I suppose he would have been one of the first 'Supergrass's'.
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William Lamie, full name Charles William St. Clair Lamie, along with his wife Sophia(nee Poole) changed their surname to Fenning after Joe's hanging. In 1891 Sophia is found living in Battersea, Surrey with 4 of her children. She is a widow. William Fenning/Lamie had died 6 March 1891 Registered in Wandsworth, Surrey.
Death:6 March 1891, 365 York Road, Wandsworth, Charles William Fenning, 43 years, General Dealer, Bronchitis, Pneumonia, Asthma 22 years. Last attack of pneumonia 10 days. S. Fenning, widow of deceased present at the death 365 York Road, Wandsworth.
Sophia married John Rowbottom in 1902, Wandsworth and in 1911 they are living at 72 Shillinton Street, Battersea. Sophia Rowbottom died at the age of 61 in 1918, Wandsworth.
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William Lamie, full name Charles William St. Clair Lamie, along with his wife Sophia(nee Poole) changed their surname to Fenning after Joe's hanging. In 1891 Sophia is found living in Battersea, Surrey with 4 of her children. She is a widow. William Fenning/Lamie had died 6 March 1891 Registered in Wandsworth, Surrey.
Death:6 March 1891, 365 York Road, Wandsworth, Charles William Fenning, 43 years, General Dealer, Bronchitis, Pneumonia, Asthma 22 years. Last attack of pneumonia 10 days. S. Fenning, widow of deceased present at the death 365 York Road, Wandsworth.
Sophia married John Rowbottom in 1902, Wandsworth and in 1911 they are living at 72 Shillinton Street, Battersea. Sophia Rowbottom died at the age of 61 in 1918, Wandsworth.
One of the sons of Lamie and Sophia Poole was born in Dublin and Named as William St Clair Lamie on 12th March 1883. Sophia Poole's maiden name is given as Fanning
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02737/2006429.pdf