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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ross & Cromarty => Topic started by: Rena on Thursday 27 August 15 17:48 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any idea where this place was? Surfing shows that it was in Perthshire but it's mentioned in the Urray Parish register. There's about three days between the birth and the baptism so am wondering if the parents were on the move when baby decided to arrive.
The baptism is Don(al)d son to Donald Mackenzie
Could there have been a mis-spelling and the place was "Brahan"?
I've attached the entry, plus a few more to show the vicinity.
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There is the River Braan, a tributary of the Tay.
There is the River Bran, a river and Strath Bran in Ross and Cromarty.
There is Castle Braan, also spelt Brahan, beside Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty. McKenzies lived there.
From Notingham University special collections :- Letter to Francis Humberston Mackenzie [later 1st Lord Seaforth], Castle Brahan, Ross and Cromarty, Scotland; 12 Oct. 1789
Regards
Malky
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Thanks Malky.
He must have been connected to the castle and its grounds in some way,
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Aye Rena, a cluster of Mackenzie Big Hooses in Mid Ross, Brahan, Ord, Conon House, Fairburn, Coul, Kinkell, Scatwell etc'. MacLennan, Junor, Chisholm all local names.
Skoosh.
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Aye Rena, a cluster of Mackenzie Big Hooses in Mid Ross, Brahan, Ord, Conon House, Fairburn, Coul, Kinkell, Scatwell etc'. MacLennan, Junor, Chisholm all local names.
Skoosh.
Hi Skoosh,
Nice of you to drop by :-* :D
Every so often I cast about trying to find a clue for my father's M'kenzie heritage but the dice haven't fallen kindly for me yet I had hoped that by now some am. genealogists would have claimed a couple of my "possible" ancestors up in Urray which would mean the "unclaimed" parents would be the ones who sired my Donald M'kenzie, blacksmith of Clyde Iron Works, Old Monkland.
I've not found any record of him being apprenticed to anyone, which could mean that his father or close relative taught him his trade and if that was the case the relative didn't have to declare or pay any fees to register his apprenticeship - (or did he learn his trade in the fencible armourers :-\ )
I have a feeling that there was some link to John Mackenzie of Strathgarve who had interests in two iron works prior to the Clyde Iron Works that he had shares in and which became operable in 1786 - it was also near to where he lived. Did Donald leave his parents to find work down south or did Donald's father travel down with his young family from the Highlands to work in the steel and coal industry? Are there any Strathgarve documents or books about the organising of buying land, building factories, employing skilled men. Questions, questions, questions and no answers.
Donald's son John was manager of another of John of Strathgarve's interests in Dundyvan and as manager he lived in the only cottage in what amounts to Strathgarve's (very large - lol) garden.
When Donald's son Kenneth died there was a long lovely (and helpful) eulogy in a local newspaper that spelled out the humble background of the family. I take it that humble means, not an aristocrat, not from a "high born" family.
"Mr. (Kenneth) Mackenzie was born seventy-three years ago at the Clyde Iron works, where, under the eye of Messrs. Dunlop, he received that excellent business training which stood so well to him in after years. He was a man, too, who built his own fortune, who owed his success in life to his native ability, to his straightforwardness of purpose, to his unbending integrity, and to his resolute perseverance, because he began life empty handed, and at the bottom of the ladder with nothing to help him onward and upward but the characteristics we have just mentioned. But to a man like Mr. Mackenzie this was all that was necessary, for to such good purpose did he apply them, and so absolutely trustworthy was he, that while quite a young man, he was promoted to the managership of the very iron works he entered as a boy
For twenty years, he served his employers to their highest satisfaction, while at the same time, he dealt faithfully with the men under him. During this time, Messrs. Dunlop found it necessary, in order to meet the requirements of their growing trade connections, to build their first furnaces at Quarter, in Hamilton district, and Mr. Mackenzie was at once appointed to superintend the erection. At that time an extensive work of this kind was something that anyone might have approached with fear and trembling, as great were the difficulties that lay in the way, and that required to be overcome. But young Kenneth was not the man to be daunted. He took the work in hand, and concentrating the whole of his energies upon the task, he soon had the satisfaction of seeing it brought to successful completion.
After acting as manager for twenty years to this firm Mr. Mackenzie resolved to strike out for himself, and accordingly he tendered his resignation. His employers offered him strong inducements to remain, but his mind was made up, and, to the great regret of everyone who had occasion to come in contact with him, he left the Clyde Iron Works to come to New Cumnock. Before he left, however, Mr. Mackenzie was made recipient of several tokens of esteem, one of which was a valuable gold watch which had been subscribed for and presented by the workmen, and which bore an inscription showing forth their respect for him as a master and as a gentleman. That was in 1858,..... "
Donald's son Ken had bought shares in a coal mine in New Cumnock, which was first advertised at £12,000. then offered for £8,000 minus the house. The original owner kept an interest in the company and I have yet to discover where Ken and his brother John raised the money to buy shares in a coal mine. I have an idea that his brother-in-law, my gt grandfather John Crum stationer of Glasgow and his business contacts, might have lent him some/been guarantors, etc., but there's no proof, only guesswork.
(sigh)
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Good post Rena, what makes you think he was a country blacksmith? Have you had a look at the Monklands website,
http://wwww.monklands.co.uk/
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh.
Yes, I've previously browsed that website a few times but they've added nothing new since last I visited. The mining website that it referred to has a plethora of information including names of ordinary human beings, unfortunately none are mine, although "Mr Mackenzie" might, or might not, be :-\
I don't actually think Donald Mackenzie born in Urray was a country blacksmith, but he could have been apprenticed to a self employed "wright" (e.g. wright; millwright, shipwright, boatwright) that today would be termed as some form of "engineer" who could turn their hands to fitting things together to make a product
On the death certificate of one of Donald's sons he is noted as "master blacksmith, deceased" which indicates he could have been in charge of men working on one of the factory's shop floors, such as a Fitting Shop, Machine Shop, etc. If he also worked in the Engine room he could have been present and worked on new steam boiler inventions which some of us learned about in our history lessons.
Just for the heck of it, attached is a photo taken two generations later of namesakes Kenneth M'kenzie (left) and his younger brother (my father) Donald M'kenzie, engineers, with their nephew Andrew Stephenson Dalglish (named in favour of his grandfather). All now deceased. Just like Kenneth in the mid 19th century, young Andrew became an entrepreneur and ended up owning a precision engineering company in Belgium and one in America. What goes around comes around eh? :D
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Good pic' Rena, one of my own Ross-shire Mackenzies was an engineer who served his time at a sugar plant manuf' in Glasgow. He managed a plantation in Cuba. They fair got aboot these Mackenzies. ;D
Checked the Glasgow Incorporation of Hammermen for a possible relevant Mackenzie admission but no joy. I did find a John Crum, saddler, stranger, admitted 25 Jun' 1805, essay-a bridle. Stranger just means not related to guild member.
Skoosh.
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Aw, thanks for wading through the guild Hammermen records Skoosh, I really appreciate it.
I don't know about the Crum saddler as my branch up to the mid 19th century all worked in the weaving industry at various trades (printer, pattern maker, nailer, etc). Even John Crum, stationer of Glasgow, served a full apprenticeship as a blacksmith in that industry, but as usual I too haven't found a record - possibly because he worked for a family member.
lol, you're right about the Mackenzie's getting about a bit - there's a Mackenzie River isn't there and when one delves into family history it seems they practically ran the American continent at one time ::) (hahaha)
I've had one bit of M'kenzie success this year that I've been searching for for ages - actually a few years. My late cousin wanted me to find the company where his father (the oldest son thus had to be another John Crum lol) learned his trade under the eagle eye of an uncle, but all he could remember was as a child seeing an advertising brochure of Mackenzies, Glasgow, manufacturers of hooks, lifts/hoists for cranes. Those were his words as he described the illustrations - if only I'd used some of my old grey cells from working in the engineering earth moving equipment myself down in Yorkshire, I would have known to look for "Block and Tackle" manufacturers and I would have found them in a blink of an eye. :-\
Skoosh, do you know anything about early 20th century Glasgow technical schools? I ask because my father was sent up to Glasgow for his schooling and attended "St. Andrews". I can see there's a large St Andrews church but no mention of it ever having a school. He can't have been there very long because apparently his mother made a surprise visit and didn't like the way her sister-in-law treated her youngest offspring and had him pack his belongings. "What shall we tell dad?" he asked his mother on the train ride down to Yorkshire. "Don't mind your head about that hen, I'll deal with your father" she responded ;D ;D He was only ten years old and passed the exam for Hull Technical College, which at that time was entry at 10years of age.
Thanks once again Skoosh, I'm much obliged.
Rena (ms Crum)
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Rena, Anderson's Polytechnic (The Tech) was the place for technical studies, students were much younger than today I think. It's now Strathclyde University.
As the 19th century wore on the craft guilds were overwhealmed by industrialisation and no longer regulated the trades. The Hammermen's Incorporation, like the others, became a charitable social club for toffs (still is) and members of the guild would be more likely to be ironmasters than blacksmiths. You have to become a burgess of the city before joining any of the guilds and although "Burgess Tickets" are occasionally presented to notable citizens, you can buy one at the taxi licensing office. I think you're entitled to graze a cow on Glasgow Green but might have to train with the militia in case the Jacobites come back. ;D
Your Mackenzie must have been a forgemaster, for hooks & chains, and The Mitchell would be your best bet.
http://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/
Yours Aye,
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh for the Technical school explanation and the name. It gives me something to work on concerning the 2nd half of the 19th century as to why Ken Mackenzie sent his young son Donald M'kenzie to live with relatives, namely his 10 year old cousin (also a Donald M'kenzie) in Glasgow, who was the child of the widow of Ken's older brother Allan Cameron M'kenzie. As all children who passed exams for higher education when they were 10-11 years old are always published in the local Hull newspaper it's been relatively easy to find local information, but excepting for two of my grandfather's sisters, who were listed in the Glasgow Herald for passing their teaching exams, I haven't discovered any other Scottish educational background.
As for the Crafts Guilds, I remember when I was chasing around for "Crum" information a few years ago reading more or less the same thing. All things being equal the Thornliebank Crum branch (originated by an earlier John Crum & his wife Eliz Buchanan) should not have become members of any guild but it seems their two sons Jas & Alex walked into the meeting house as if they were actually members and brazened out anyone who questioned their right to be there. Today when tots insist on having their own way we call it "Pester Power" and that seems to be the case with the Crum brothers lol
As for the M'kenzie forging company, there's not much online about them and having looked at the Mitchell catalogue it doesn't yet seem that they have anything, which is to be expected for such a small company.
Phew - cup of tea time I think. Once again thank you very much for your thoughts, comments and look ups - I really am most appreciative.
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Rena, the lassies at the teaching could have gone to Stow College and possibly the Mackenzie's could have traded under the Acme Forging Company or some such?
Skoosh.
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Hi again Skoosh.
I found the McKenzie block ad tackle company name in the Glasgow Post Office Directory and then once I'd found it I discovered there was a cross reference to the home address - so that sorted that out.
As for Ann McK Crum and her sister at the teaching college (in those days girls weren't admitted to university). The original image I took had the academy's name on it altho' I can't find it in my computer but I've found a similar listing in the computer which includes her name and I've attached it.
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I still can't find the newspaper entry but here's her sister Jane McK Crum's school teaching assignment by the Board.
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This looks like The Free Church College,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Church_Training_College
Skoosh.
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oo - thanks Skoosh, I thought the "Glasgow Free Church" was a parish district and hadn't realised it was an actual college.
I don't know what the sisters taught, excepting I know one was a cookery teacher and as I found 21 year old sister Jessie Crum in the 1881 census at a small Dalleagles School in Ayrshire, I'm assuming she was an infant school teacher. Apparently one sister taught music and was the first woman to be appointed head of all music by the Glasgow Board. As all the family played various instruments that could be true, however, I've started having doubts about her being in "my" family group as there was a Jessie Graham Crum mentioned quite a lot for playing an instrument from another branch of the Crum's.
Once again: Ta ever so Skoosh
Rena
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Obviously Free Kirk folk Rena, the church turned out its own ministers after it left the Church of Scotland, and built Trinity College here on the Woodlands Hill, with the three towers,
http://www.scotcities.com/westend/parkdistrict.htm
Skoosh
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There's mention of a smithy here:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-14026-brahan-mains-square-urray
Imber
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Obviously Free Kirk folk Rena, the church turned out its own ministers after it left the Church of Scotland, and built Trinity College here on the Woodlands Hill, with the three towers,
http://www.scotcities.com/westend/parkdistrict.htm
Skoosh
Thanks for the link Skoosh.
Yes, they were and very devout Skoosh. My father's parents trailed them to church three times every Sunday. Then in the evening there would be a family musical gathering in the front room where they'd all play their instruments. Knowing the house it must have been very crowded with scarcely any room to use their bows and probably two playing the piano :D
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Rena,
Not wishing to stoke up what may be mis-directing information, but as the previous poster has mentioned there was a smithy on Brahan Estate, here's my Listed Building information and photo when I did my rounds in 1984.
Most estates and large farms had their own blacksmithing facilities, so your man (and my fellow clansman) could have worked elsewhere in Urray Parish and not necessarily at Brahan, where, at the moment, we are enjoying some nice sunshine and a warm breeze!
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/tollie5/Brahan%20Mains%20Square_zpssdgp1vtm.jpg)
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There's mention of a smithy here:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-14026-brahan-mains-square-urray
Imber
Thanks for the link Imber.
The building looks very interesting, I then followed the trail and found the Brahan map. Having seen the area marked "Seaforth" I tried to use google earth to see what it consisted of but was unsuccessful.
I'm now leaning towards John being Donald's father, but there's an Alexander in the mix so have to do some more eye strain. Of course, one of Donald's children could have been named after a benefactor, or a relative who didn't have a son to carry on the name, so I can't rule any of those two possibilities out. e.g. Donald's daughter Jane named one of her sons Allan, the person attending the birth was the wife/widow of Allan M'kenzie
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Hopefully, this will ease the eye strain!
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/tollie5/LISTED%20BUILDINGS%20-%20Urray%20Parish%20-%20Brahan%20Mains%20Square%20-%201984._zpsqiyiw5b5.jpg)
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Map.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=57.5626&lon=-4.4993&layers=164
Regards
Malky
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Hello Agneshlll,
Many thanks for responding to my thread. All input is most welcome.
As with most family historians I have the quandary of finding the origins of an 80 year old man in the 1851 Old Monkland, Lanarkshire census who states he was born in Urray. (the 1841 census didn't record his birthplace) The quandary being there's no marriage record anywhere for him and his wife, Ann M'kenzie, dau of Donald McK and Janet Cameron (all four people noted on a grave headstone in Tollcross Cemetery, Old Monkland, Airdrie/Coatbridge and according to archivists this headstone does not exist lol
Luckily the Urray ancestor Donald M'Kenzie had offspring living with him in the 1841 census otherwise my research would have been more difficult because their Old Monkland's baptism records haven't survived either.
I have seen on the Urray baptism records and on freecen website that there were other Donald M'kenzies born around the same time as my Donald. However, whereas my Donald had sons living with him in 1841 there was no similar indication on the other census that I found.
In desperation I once asked a psychic the origins of my father family.
Immediately she said, "I have a large man here who's laughing and dropping a trail of crumbs on the ground".
I admitted that I had been following my father's "Crum" family but I was asking for information on his grandmother.
"Oh I can tell you that" she responded "They're from the land of the old monks".
She must have been reading my mind because I already knew she was born in Old Monkland.
She went on to say "I can see a family who have four farms" and she poked the air as though marking four corners.
"There's a connection to Cumberland". (Duke of Cumberland?)
Then she said; "I can see a signpost pointing the way saying "Killing"
She then described walking down a hill with an old quarry on one side, until she eventually came to a little white church.
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All very vague, no names, etc. and I am none the wiser.
Was "killing" referring to the Jacobites, Duke of Cumberland at Culloden?
Or, because of mention of a church, was she describing a walk to church at some place named Killin/Killen?
Thanks once again.
Rena. (My mother refused to name me after my father's mother Agnes but agreed to give me the same name that my father's oldest sister Jeanie had given her daughter. I asked my older cousin up in Aberdeen why her late mother gave her the name Rena. Apparently "because she liked it", which is what my mother told me. Roll forward several decades and I discovered from an old census that when my aunt Jeanie was a child in Glasgow there was a little playmate living a few doors away called Rena who had an Italian mother .. Italian "Reina" as in the ship "Reina Del Mar" (Queen of the sea) lol
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Map.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=57.5626&lon=-4.4993&layers=164
Regards
Malky
That's a great map Malky - thank you and thanks for stopping by.
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Ah, that's better Agneshill - thank you.
Yes I agree that most large estates in those days were self sufficient. My English mother has Yorkshire ancestry working on a landed gentry estate and in her Norfolk ancestry, she has a shepherd but what tickled me was the shepherd's son worked as an ostler on the estate so he must have had a full time job looking after the owner's horses, possibly all types of farm work, carriage and riding horses?
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Rena, the name Killin rings a bell anent Mid-Ross. Mackenzie of Fairburn lost his estate for joining the '45, he said that his ancestor was given the land by James IV and he felt obliged to support his descendant. Mackenzie of Kintail, who gets his Seaforth earldom from a sea-loch in Lewis, kept out of the '45 although they had been out in the '15 & '19, and retained Brahan.
I assume from your consulting a spae-wife that you're also familiar with the prophesies of Coinneach Odhar Mackenzie, the Brahan Seer, who foretold, amongst many other things, the fall of Fairburn and that a cow would calve in Fairburn Tower. Something that came to pass many years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahan_Seer
Found a reference to Mackenzie of Killin, it's just east of Garve, at the head of Loch Garve! ;D
Skoosh.
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Actually Skoosh, I couldn't really miss seeing mention of the "seer" because every time I typed "Mackenzie" into google the old tale kept coming up :o
Like all dutiful sons before him Kenneth (the eventual coalmaster of New Cumnock) named his first son after his father Donald but he added a middle name; "Donald Alexander Mackenzie" b abt 1848 in Old Monkland (no baptism record of course). Unless I've missed him I don't think Ken's father Donald named any of his son's Donald, he gave his son the equivalent name of "Duncan".
Kenneth's wife died but he then had five more sons by his second wife, two carried her surname as a middle name and the other three were Kenneth, then Allan Cameron (in favour of his dead brother), the youngest being "Duncan Seaforth MACKENZIE". Haha, was he named after Ken's father or Ken's maternal grandfather Donald M'kenzie? ???
One thing I do know is that when surname's were introduced in Europe in the 11th century men often took the surname of the man they owed allegiance to although there was no blood tie. All the images I've seen of Mackenzies are that they've got brown eyes (apparently the brown gene is usually stronger than the blue eyed gene), whereas if you looked at the 8 children my grandfather had you'd have 16 bright blue eyes staring back at you from the shortest girl of 5'9" to the tallest boy of 6'4.
lol @ Killin - surely not another puzzle - Garve, is outside of Urray isn't it? So who was John of Strathgarve - was he a self made man like Ken M'kenzie and did he and his wife have any children in the neighbouring parish? Wives usually had their first born child back home with their mother in those days, all further children being born in the place where the couple lived which was where hubby worked.
I need another cup of tea lol
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Have you read these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Mackenzie,_1st_Baron_Seaforth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahan_Seer
REgards
Malky
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Have you read these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Mackenzie,_1st_Baron_Seaforth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahan_Seer
REgards
Malky
Hello again Malky - you're definitely a male - you've chosen some bloodthirsty links I notice ;D
Thanks for the pointers, I'd seen one years ago but not seen the other. From reading the (so called) "Lady" Seaforth's punishment command I think the Spice Girls were a bit late with their "girl power" plea.
My problem is that I don't have any family stories, except four uncles suffered from shell shock WWI - unfortunately no names :-\. My father was the youngest of the tribe and his father died when he was 16, then when I was at my most curious I didn't see much of him due to WWII. This meant we didn't see his relatives up in Scotland until 1950s when hordes of them were there to greet the sassenach family and I was overwhelmed - although I did notice that my dad's ancient maternal widowed aunt in Leith slept in a hole in the living room wall :o
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"my dad's ancient maternal widowed aunt in Leith slept in a hole in the living room wall"
That's a tenament bedroom. ::) ::) ::)
Regards
Malky
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"my dad's ancient maternal widowed aunt in Leith slept in a hole in the living room wall"
That's a tenament bedroom. ::) ::) ::)
Regards
Malky
She was lucky to have a bedroom all to herself. All over Europe there'd be families living in one room - just think of parents having 10 bairns all sat around the wall trying to get a good night's sleep. Then there's the country folk who had the cattle at the other end of the room
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"Then there's the country folk who had the cattle at the other end of the room"
Free central heating. 8) 8) 8)
Regards
Malky
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"Then there's the country folk who had the cattle at the other end of the room"
Free central heating. 8) 8) 8)
Regards
Malky
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Garve might be Contin parish? but an easy walk from Brahan. I ended up in the Garve Hotel many years ago on the way back from fishing on the west coast. A birthday celebration was underway for the local grave-digger and there was a tame hen dancing on the bar accompanied a fiddler. The hen was on the sherry as I recall! ;D
Roderick was a popular Urray name and used by the Mackenzie's of Fairburn. The estate came into the hands of the Stirling family, a cousin of the Stirling's of SAS fame. The laird married the daughter of Mackenzie's of Gairloch who had Conon House. Fairburn is now a retirement home and the last I heard of The Tower was that it had been bought for restoration? The family get a mention in a book called "Isolation Shepherd", by Iain Thomson. Great read.
As for "Hole in the wa' beds", I was born very young in one myself! ;D
Skoosh.
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Very interesting Skoosh.
I once read somewhere that to weaken the loyalty of the Highland clans was that a law was introduced whereby the oldest son born to a high ranking clansman had to be sent away from home when he reached a certain age.
I've just found a stray Donald Mckenzie born in Clyde Iron Works, Lanarks but living in Kelso, Roxburghshire. I need to check on his death certificate for parents, but there's no sign of him or his wife after 1861 and I'm wondering where they went. As the American civil war started in 1861-1865, I doubt they went there. I've spent ages today looking through passenger lists to see if they sailed to South Africa or *Australia - *as they're not digitized yet it's a long haul looking through online film lol.
1861 Census
Name: Donald Mckenzie
Age: 50
Occupation: Coach Painter
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relationship: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Mckenzie Age 43 (b abt 1819) born Kelso.
Where born: Clyde Iron Works, Lanarkshire
Town: Kelso
County: Roxburghshire
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The Statutes of Iona I think Rena, eldest sons to be sent to the Lowlands to be educated. In effect hostages for the clans good behaviour.
Skoosh.
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The Statutes of Iona I think Rena, eldest sons to be sent to the Lowlands to be educated. In effect hostages for the clans good behaviour.
Skoosh.
Thanks for the confirmation Skoosh. Shocking wasn't it? Probably not so bad if they went to live with kith and kin or old neighbours who have moved down south.
I've come across quite a few young "visitors" in households. I got quite lucky once when I came across a widowed Mrs J Jackson who cared for two ten year old Donald Mckenzies, one being her son and the other a visitor. A bit more research showed she was the twice widowed daughter-in-law of Donald M'kenzie of Clyde Iron Works and the "Aunt Janet" who had reported the birth of Allan McKenzie Crum (named in favour of her late husband). Her "visitor" was her nephew, son of Kenneth M'kenzie of Clyde Iron Works and later of New Cumnock. Young 'visitor' Donald probably living near a "suitable" education establishment.