RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Westmorland => Topic started by: Emma Hughes on Friday 28 August 15 10:37 BST (UK)
-
This is the most confusing problem I have ever come across, if anyone has any ideas I'd be very grateful.
I have been researching my ggd grandfather John Hodgson b. 1870. He was born in Westmorland along with many others of the same name, On his marriage certificate it states that his father was also called John Hodgson and he was a blacksmith.
With this information I soon found the household census records of John Hodgson b. 1838(ish) married to Mary with a son called John. He was the blacksmith in Hutton roof, Westmorland and he was born in Kirkby Lonsdale.
I then set about finding census records for his entire life and planned to find his parents in this manner.
1891. John Hodgson - blacksmith in Hutton roof. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary, kids including John Hodgson born 1838
1881. John Hodgson - blacksmith in Hutton roof. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary, kids including John Hodgson born 1838
1871. John Hodgson - agricultural labourer!? In lupton. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary and the same kids with the same dates of birth as in the later census
1861. Can't find joy. Hodgson the blacksmith or blacksmith apprentice. Found 2 farm labourers, could be either but I imagined he must have to have been an apprentice or son of a blacksmith
THIS IS WHERE IT GETS CONFUSING
Option 1
1851- John Hodgson - son of blacksmith aged 12 in Lupton. B Kirkby Lonsdale
Option 2
1851- John Hodgson - apprentice blacksmith aged 14 in Lupton. B Holme (very near Kirkby Lonsdale
Both of these two options are on the same census record from the same house. The head of the family was George Hodgson the blacksmith who has a son aged 12 called John and an apprentice aged 14. I can find a previous census from 1841 with George as the blacksmith and his young son John.
I'm stumped, any ideas?
-
Option 1 would seem to be the right one as it ties in with a birth in 1838.
It may be that the forge could not sustain two families during the agricultural depression so young John may have had to take work where he could find it. However, Hutton Roof is right on the border with Lancashire and not that far from Yorkshire, so it may be worthwhile looking in these counties.
-
How do you know this is the right family as there is another John Hodgson born same year same place with a wife Elizabeth
1881 1891 census Hutton Roof John Hodgson b 1838 Kirby occupation blacksmith
Who did the son John b 1870 Marry ?
-
That is a good idea about checking the records of Yorkshire and Lancashire for blacksmiths called John Hodgson
Apart from the birth place of the son (rather than the blacksmith) being the same as the later records I have I'm starting to think it's more likely he was the apprentice. The son would have had to do an apprenticeship as a blacksmith I would have thought, unless it took place between the census years.
I would have expected to find 2 John hodgsons of the same age working as blacksmiths in 1861 and 1871
The younger John went on the marry Elizabeth Sewart. I'm waiting for their marriage certificate. He worked as the blacksmith in Hutton roof while George was the blacksmith in Kirkby Lonsdale
-
The Father of the John who married Elizabeth Sewart was called George.
Hodgsons
1841 John b 1838 father George b1811 /-5 at Smithy, Kirkby Lonsdale.
1851 John b 1839 father George b 1806 at Stocks, Kendal.
1861 George b 1806 at Lupton Smythey. John not identifiable.
1871 John b 1839 with wife Elizabeth and family at Lupton Smithy.
Other years as previously posted except wife is always Elizabeth.
-
Thanks John, that's what I thought. I'm confused because there was another John Hodgson in the smithy at Kirkby Lonsdale with George. This boy was the blacksmith apprentice. After this census I can only find one blacksmith called John Hodgson and that was the son, the one who married Elizabeth. And he appears to be an agricultural labourer before becoming the blacksmith in Lupton.
I can't find the apprentice or the son working as a blacksmith in Westmorland, Lancashire or Yorkshire in 1861 and 1871. Maybe the apprentice died, maybe he never completed the apprenticeship. And John Hodgson the son must have completed an apprenticeship between the census times. Im waiting for the certificate :-X
-
Good news! Certificate has arrived. It was John Hodgson the son of George. The apprentice with the same name, profession and age was a stunning coincidence
-
This is the most confusing problem I have ever come across, if anyone has any ideas I'd be very grateful.
I have been researching my ggd grandfather John Hodgson b. 1870. He was born in Westmorland along with many others of the same name, On his marriage certificate it states that his father was also called John Hodgson and he was a blacksmith.
With this information I soon found the household census records of John Hodgson b. 1838(ish) married to Mary with a son called John. He was the blacksmith in Hutton roof, Westmorland and he was born in Kirkby Lonsdale.
I then set about finding census records for his entire life and planned to find his parents in this manner.
1891. John Hodgson - blacksmith in Hutton roof. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary, kids including John Hodgson born 1838
1881. John Hodgson - blacksmith in Hutton roof. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary, kids including John Hodgson born 1838
1871. John Hodgson - agricultural labourer!? In lupton. B. Kirkby Lonsdale. Wife Mary and the same kids with the same dates of birth as in the later census
1861. Can't find joy. Hodgson the blacksmith or blacksmith apprentice. Found 2 farm labourers, could be either but I imagined he must have to have been an apprentice or son of a blacksmith
THIS IS WHERE IT GETS CONFUSING
Option 1
1851- John Hodgson - son of blacksmith aged 12 in Lupton. B Kirkby Lonsdale
Option 2
1851- John Hodgson - apprentice blacksmith aged 14 in Lupton. B Holme (very near Kirkby Lonsdale
Both of these two options are on the same census record from the same house. The head of the family was George Hodgson the blacksmith who has a son aged 12 called John and an apprentice aged 14. I can find a previous census from 1841 with George as the blacksmith and his young son John.
I'm stumped, any ideas?
Hi my great great grandad was one of the John Hodgsons you are talking about, He is the John Hodgson who was married to Elizabeth living at Lea Bank Hutton Roof on the 1891 census with John listed as blacksmith as is his son George on the same census. John by then being 54 years old and George 18. my great grandfather was George's brother Edward Hodgson aged 23 on that same census, they had other brothers and sisters ....Sarah, John, Alice, William and James, I have been trying to find when my great grandad Edward died it seems to be around 1900, he was married to Frances Stewardson in 1897 the same year my grandad John James Hodgson was born and his sister Elizabeth Jane Hodgson was born in 1899, But as his wife remarried a John Henry Fraser in Lancaster in 1903, I presume he had died, does anyone have any information?
-
I'm thrilled to read your reply but I have to go and get a pen and paper to work out the John Hodgson connection...
-
I have found a record of marriage between John Henry Fraser and France's Hodgson in 1900 in Lancaster where he is listed as a bachelor and she is listed as a widow!
If you pm your email I will send you an image.
Also do you have any information about Edward Hodgson's brothers either my relative John hodgson or James Hodgson? Or any information from further back or. George Hodgson?
-
Have just been checking records I have found (which isn't that much on my great great grandad John Hodgson) Have located the first 3 chidren on the 1871 census, Sarah aged 5, Edward (my great grandad) aged 3, and John aged 1. all at Lupton all noted as children of agricultural labourer . They had all been born at Lupton.
By 1881 they where living in Hutton Roof John Hodgson blacksmith is down as being born in Kirkby Lonsdale, aged 43, his wife Elizabeth 44 born in Whittington Lancs. Sarah 15, Edward 13, John 10 and George 8, are all down as being born in Lupton, and Alice 6, born in Whittington, then William 3, James 3 months and a grand daughter 1, all born at Hutton Roof.
They are living at Lea Bank Hutton Roof on the 1891 census with John as Blacksmith, Elizabeth his wife, My great grandad Edward a general labourer, George a blacksmith, William and James.
Maybe there were more blacksmiths there as during the 1870s and 1880s there was a massive work going on in the area of Hutton Roof building reservoirs and pipelines to take the water to Manchester, seems there was a lot of trouble in the area with drunkenness and brawling! Google Navvies and the local community, the experience of the Thirlmere Aqueduct in Westmorland and North Lancashire 1888-1893 .
-
I have the things mapped out as I see it but it's very difficult to post all on here for copyright reasons. I have a couple of marriage certificates
I have
George Hodgson (b 1806) m Mary Robinson (George was blacksmith, born in Carnforth, lancs)
They lived in lupton smithy Kirkby Lonsdale
Children were Alice (1836) , John (1838), Edward (1841), Mary Ann (1844), James Robinson (1845), Sarah (1848), William (1851), Michael (1853)
Then the next generation, John 1838 married Elizabeth sewart, lived first in lupton (agricultural labourer) next door to George and Mary (parents) moving on to Hutton roof, worked as blacksmith and had the following children francis (1864), Sarah (1866), Mary (1866), Edward (1867), John (1870), George (1873), Alice (1875), William (1878), James (1881). Strangely when they moved to Hutton roof they are listed as having a granddaughter, aged 1, called Ann living with them, I assume she was an illegitimate daughter of their oldest daughter Mary or Sarah who was only 15 at the time. My grandmothers remembers both of these aunts.
Then my great grandpa John (1870) married Annie kingwell and worked as a navy around the country on the reservoirs ending up in Wales.
The other brother James (1881) married Annie kingwells sister Emily, two brothers marrying two sisters. He also worked as a navvy/labourer on reservoirs.
Your ancestor Edward (1867) I have as getting married to Frances stewardson when he was 30, having the two children you mentioned and being dead three years later as his wife is listed as being a widow at the time of her marriage to John Henry Fraser. I notice her son changed his surname to that of her second husband so perhaps that ties in with Edward having died.
Does that make sense? All corrections gratefully received
-
so that makes us cousins if your great grandad and mine were brothers, not sure what you should put on here but I live on the Wirral, England, My story gets even more complicated, Frances Stewardson went to Lancaster with John Henry Fraser, don't know if she moved there with Edward and then he died, or whether she went with john Henry, If you know of the death record for Edward, I would be grateful, I can see an Edward dies in Lancaster in quarter J/A/S/ 1901, or an Edward dies November 1902 with a burial at Morland Eden District, Frances is on the census 1901 as John's wife! which she wasn't until 1903, and they had changed my grandads name to James H. Fraser and not his own John James Hodgson, In 1901 she had a child to John called Thomas Harold, a Boris in 1904, who seems to have died, then Alice in 1907, She had already left her's and Edward's daughter Elizabeth in Whittington Lancs with her mother Elizabeth Stewardson and never went back for her. Then she left my grandad alone in Lancaster aged about 14, and she went to Australia with John, Harold and Alice ! When she got there she then left everyone and completely disappeared and no-one could find her again. I am in touch with the descendants of Harold in Australia, So I had no family knowledge passed down to go on, only what I have been able to find out myself, So if you know about Edward I would be grateful.
-
I have sent you a personal message with my email so I can show you what I have found
-
Meant to say thanks for all that information about George and Mary, their children etc etc, I now see that you put Frances' wedding in Lancaster in 1900 and she as a widow, the entry I found was 1903 wonder which it is? meant to say also that Edward and Frances' daughter Elizabeth Jane Hodgson emigrated to Canada in 1914 aged 15, with her Stewardson cousin. great to have made contact with you as you are answering all the questions I have been searching for! Wish I could give you some info that you need.