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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: josey on Sunday 30 August 15 16:18 BST (UK)
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I would like some help, please, as I am having a last ditch search for the baptism of Philip Murray 1813. The family were Roman Catholic.
I have posted 2 earlier threads & had some good help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=394242.msg2654754#msg2654754
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659298.msg5049313#msg5049313
However, having previously come to believe the place was 'Senzy' I have had another look at the army record and now believe it was 'Penzy'. I attach both times that Philip's name was entered in the same hand on the pension record. In the second occurrence the 'P' of Philip looks identical to the 'P' of the beginning of the parish of birth but different to the first occurrence of Philip.
I have since had this thought: although previously discussed that Philip was a clerk and would have noticed an error on his form, it COULD be that on return to Ireland as a baby/child, his parents died and Philip's knowledge of where he was born was just hearsay...and got corrupted meanwhile.
I found a marvellous resource
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search/series/survey-kent
which details all the parishes in Kent and has maps for each volume.
Fresh eyes much appreciated before I give up .... ;). Thank you.
Josey
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Just a random thought - and bearing in mind that my Irish accent is admittedly dire - it couldn't be a mis-hearing of 'upon the sea' or 'open sea' could it?
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Could it be Pemsey? Kent Archaeological Society list Pemsey in their place names as in the parish of Brabourne, near Ashford.
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Pevensey isn't even in Kent, let alone Chatham; but regiments were stationed at the barracks there during the Napoleonic War. Perhaps his father's regiment was at Chatham shortly afterwards/before, so he was just a bit muddled over places.
Richard
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Jomot, Jebber & Richard, thank you all very much for the new ideas - inspired. I will follow them all up & let you know.
Josey
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Bringing this to the top again as I have found a baptism on ancestry [no image of the register sadly]. Westham is the next parish to Pevensey :-\
Name: Philip Murray
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 10 Jun 1811
Baptism Date: 23 Jun 1811
Baptism Place: Westham,Sussex,England
Father: Js. Murray
Mother: M.
FHL Film Number: 504419
I have tried to contact the Westham OPC via but the emails won't send from the contact page of the website
http://www.sussex-opc.org/index.php?k=497&t=parish
Perhaps his father's regiment was at Chatham shortly afterwards/before, so he was just a bit muddled over places.
This may easily be the case....
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Doesn't help with baptism but I feel pretty sure I have found Philip Murray in the 1841 census aged 25 [so 25 - 29], in army barracks in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. HO107 District Newcastle Upon Tyne Cavalry Artillery and Infantry Barracks Piece: 847 Book: 8 Folio: 4 Page Number: 2.
He is a corporal [I know from his army record he was a corporal from 27 Feb 1840 to 19 Nov 1843 & a member of the britregiments group told me in that 2/7/1841 depot of the 87th marched south from Newcastle, so I feel I am safe assuming it was the 87th at the barracks at the time of the census although it is not specified].
However, next to his name is another corporal, Daniel Murray also 25 [so 25 - 29] and am wondering whether this could be a brother. I have tried without success but can anyone find a baptism or army record for a Daniel Murray 1812 - 1816 - his parents could also be Philip's......I know the census states both born Ireland but it was an Irish regiment & I think that would have been assumed, rather than each individual soldier asked.
Many thanks, Josey
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Its either Penge if in Kent or Pevensey if its Sussex .Take your Pick.
Merry Christmas :D
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I'm not sure where this gets you but for info: Penge, in Surrey in 1813, is a long way from Chatham, but so is Pevensey. Penge was largely commonland with very few houses, but there were encampments of gypsies, who could have been Irish, as could itinerant navvies working on the Croydon Canal through Penge, though this was completed by 1811. I've no idea where anyone would have gone for a Roman Catholic baptism. The nearest Anglican Church was St George, Beckenham, but I can't see a Philip Murray in what is readable of the registers for 1810-1815.
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Thank you, Chris Doran, for your contribution & for looking up the church registers. Interesting information about Croydon canal. I had Irish ancestors working on the Shubenacadie Canal in Nova Scotia - also lived in Croydon in my early years :).
My feeling is that perhaps the place of birth was muddled, if Philip's father was in the army too then rjknott's suggestion that the birth was in Pevensey then the family moved shortly afterwards to Chatham.....perhaps the parents died early in Philip's life so the place of birth was hearsay from relatives....one day the brick wall will fall but every contribution & piece of information is useful. Philip was a clerk when he attested in 1837, so he would have been able to read his form & correct any mistakes.
Thank you, Josey
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The only RC chapel in the Chatham area at that time was at Brompton.
http://chathamhistoricalsoc.btck.co.uk/HistorySection/StMichaelsRCChurch
If he was born in or near Chatham then he should have been baptised there. I'm afraid I don't know where the records can be found. It might be worth emailing Medway Archives.
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The Catholic Records you need for St Michael's Chapel twixt 1802 and 1862 can be checked on here.
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/rclist.htm
I think there is a help facility for search,s if you E mail the Society. ;D
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/research-service.htm
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The only RC chapel in the Chatham area at that time was at Brompton.
http://chathamhistoricalsoc.btck.co.uk/HistorySection/StMichaelsRCChurch
If he was born in or near Chatham then he should have been baptised there.
The Catholic Records you need for St Michael's Chapel twixt 1802 and 1862 can be checked on here.
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/rclist.htm
I think there is a help facility for search,s if you E mail the Society. ;D
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/research-service.htm
Thank you both for that. In 2010 I wrote to the parish priest at St Michael's [with a donation to church funds] and Father Baker phoned me to say that 'no Philip Murray found in their baptism register which is complete - plenty of Murrays though. He told me some of the history of the church.
Josey
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Resurrecting this brick wall ;D having found this reference which is the history of the 87th in 1814.
https://archive.org/stream/recordofeightyse00canniala#page/68/mode/2up
so if Philip's father was also 87th, could Penzy/Senzy be a French town??
Josey