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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Jomot on Monday 31 August 15 21:44 BST (UK)
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Looking for the children of Thomas Black Underwood and Eliza Ann West, I found the following entries:
Joseph U Underwood, Father: Thomas B, Mother: Ellen A, District: Maitland. Reg No: 8657/1858
Joseph W Underwood, Father: Thomas, Mother: Eliza. Reg No: 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150
The child was probably called Joseph West Underwood so the first entry seems to have the correct father but the incorrect mother & middle initial, whereas the second entry corrects those details but omits both parents middle initial & also the district.
Can anyone advise why an entry would be registered under two different numbers? I can find no trace of the child after this so wondered if the 2205/1858 should have been indexed as a death rather than a birth, but that reference relates to someone else entirely.
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This is a Church record of a Baptism/Christening
Joseph W UNDERWOOD
Father: Thomas,
Mother: Eliza.
Reg No: 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150
The system of Civil Registration was in place in the Colony in 1856. This is the complying birth registration. There are apparently errors in the transcribing. The old documents were hard to read sometimes. ;D
Joseph U UNDERWOOD
Father: Thomas B,
Mother: Ellen A,
At District: Maitland.
Reg No: 8657/1858
Another chatter will be able to offer a good deal more detail than I about the systems and how you may conduct further research into the listings.
However, a transcription of the death of the father will probably show the names and ages of all his children. The informant may have been his wife or one of his children.
8935/1889 UNDERWOOD Thomas B
Aged 60 Years
Died at GLADESVILLE
Registered at RYDE
Sue
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Many thanks for your reply.
So if I understand you correctly 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150 is the church baptism and 8657/1858
is the civil registration, hence the 'double' registration. How interesting!
The 1889 death is a different Thomas B Underwood though as my Thomas B was the informant for his fathers death in 1892 and died himself in 1915. Both are buried at Sandgate Cemetery, Newcastle.
His father, Joseph, lived to be 83 - not bad for a transported convict - although sadly his death certificate revealed that Thomas B had six deceased siblings I wasn't aware of, all of whom presumably died as infants as no names or dates were given for them and I cant find any registration for them either.
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Hi there,
One of those registrations is the civil birth registration and the other is the baptism record.
Many of the Early Church Records were acquired by NSW BDM over a number of years, and finally bound into Volumes in the years before many of the clerical staff enlisted during WWI (so, bound from around 1912-1915).
Early Church Records include baptisms and burials from 1787 (first fleet en route to NSW) and marriages (from Feb 1788) until at least 1856 (and in some instances, as late as Federation in 1901) You can recognise them as they have the letter "V" as part of their reference no.
Civil registration commenced in March 1856.
The NSW BDM online index has their holdings of ECRs and the civil regos indexed together. Not all parish registers have been included in the ECRs. In fact, Parish registers are not public records, but are Church records. Many Denominations do permit access to their historic registers.
NSW Registrar General's Office (including NSW BDM) obtained its first type-writer in around 1918 or a little after that.
It was not until about 1930 that teams of volunteers who were familiar with the long hand style of writing used on NSW BDM records undertook the huge task of transcribing the (by then) well worn pages in those volumes. Many of those volunteers worked tirelessly using natural daylight only. Pages on original records recorded back as early as 1787 to as then recently as 1918 were often thumb marked, ink blotted, ink bled through to the reverse side, torn, and of course ....
in many different scribbles from the individual clerks at NSW BDM who in turn were NOT the original clerks recording the events as they happened.
So there are recognised transcription mistakes in the records.
It is often best, if you can, to strive to get to the original primary document, to see if you can transcribe it better than earlier attempts.
I have seen some strange transcriptions, completely different surnames .... occupations .... given names that simply don't make sense when you look at other connected documents. However, the role of the transcriber is of course to transcribe what they see on the document in front of them and to expose that transcription to the team in which they are working, so that their efforts are checked and checked.
If you were to consider spending pennies, I would expect the cheaper versions available from NSW BDM's Official transcribers would offer you the same info as on the real deal certificates. Certainly there's no point at all in spending shillings when pennies gets you the same info, and in the instance of the 1858 ECR (Volume 150, line 2205) you will get a 'typed' puter generated document from NSW BDM ..... well there's no reason to waste shillings....
The civil registration (8657/1858) will contain information about when and where the parents married, their ages at the time of registering the birth, where they were each born, where the baby was born (often at their then home address) if the baby was present when the informant attended the deputy registrar's office to register the birth, the name of the midwife who assisted and sometimes other witnesses present at the birth, (mothers/mother's in law/cousins, etc) ....
Hope I have not bored you with this depth of detail.
Cheers, JM
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Hope I have not bored you with this depth of detail.
Absolutely not, it's really interesting and I will definitely bookmark & re-read it. Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply. Incredible to think there are people still alive who were born when the Registrar General's Office got their first typewriter - and now here we are with the wonders of the internet!
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Hello all I am still trying to find the burial of Matthew and Sarah McElroy he was a convict and pardoned in N.S.W. he was a cooper of the Hope Inn Liverpool till 1839 then a A J Tebbut took over as the Licensee after him anyone familiar with this person or persons, :'( having such a hard time in finding them and their burial. :'( :'(
Janet :-[
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Hi there,
Various spellings for your chap's first name, surname, and his wife and child, so perhaps searching for his burial/death may need to include these variations.
July 1817 Michael McELROY or Mathew McELROY aged 23 years, born Dundalk, Ireland, arrived per ship Chapman, a labourer and Ploughman.
Nov 1821 Matthew McILROY, applied for mitigation of sentence
Sept 1825 Mathew McALROY Conditional Pardon
Sept 1825 Sarah McELROY, born in the colony, resident Parramatta, wife of Michael McILREY
Sept 1825 Mary Ann McELROY, born in the colony, resident Parramatta, child of Michael McILREY
Nov 1828 (NSW Census) McELROY and McILROY, households Kent St and also York St Sydney:
Mattw McELROY, York St as the householder, with John McKENZIE aged 31 a stonemason.
Mary McELROY, York St, aged 7, born in the colony in the household of Matthew McELROY
Sarah McELROY, York St, aged 23, born in the colony, in the household of Matthew McELROY
Matthew McELROY aged 33, per Chapman, York St, a Publican
Michael CASSIDY, 62, per Daphne 1819, a servant to Matthew McILROY, householder of Kent St
John KERNS, 48, per Guildford 1818, a carpenter, lodger at Mrs McELROY, York St
So you are probably looking for a Roman Catholic burial .... have you found the burial for their daughter Mary?
JM
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Afternoon JM thanks so much for your input I didn't know this information. MaryAnn McElroy married a John Tindall on the 15/5/1839 Liverpool N.S.W. Australia, her death date is 29/12/1879 address Alma Street Darlington N.S.W. Burial date 30/12/1879 Necropolis Rookwood Cemetery N.S.W. son Edward Tindall was the Informant Campbell Street Newtown N.S.W. Its always been confusing this Death Transcription as a John McElroy is listed for her father not Matthew McElroy. :-[
Janet :'(
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Hi there,
Don't let the info on the death registration confuse you. It is only as reliable as the informant's own knowledge, and as it was provided by her son, he would have given it to the funeral director at a time of dealing with his own grief. The NSW BDM did not cross reference their own records. Edward would have provided information to the best of his knowledge. Perhaps his maternal grandfather had been long gone, or perhaps the question was posed as "What is the father's name?" and Edward heard it as "What is thy father's name?"
JM
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Thanks again JM for your help its most appreciated. :-[
Janet :'(
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MaryAnn McElroy married a John Tindall on the 15/5/1839 Liverpool N.S.W. Australia
I cannot see this marriage indexed, have you seen the church register? Who were the witnesses? Mary Ann was underage, is there any indictation of who gave her permission to marry?
Sarah was seving a two year sentence in gaol in Sydney from 18 Feb 1830 to 25 January 1832 so she was still alive then.
Debra :)
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Hello Dundee, thanks for your help and to answer all your questions, I am still searching this entry which is proving hard to find I only follow the past and future ancestor's records of the Tindall families. :-[
Janet :'(
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Hi,
May I please ask some very direct questions which follows on from your reply to Dundee's question .....
.... I am still searching this entry which is proving hard to find I only follow the past and future ancestor's records of the Tindall families.
:) :) Q1 As you do not have the marriage cert, how have you determined the date and place for the marriage as 15 May 1839, Liverpool NSW?
:) :) Q2 What was the denomination for the clergyman who married that couple on that day at that place? (may help to find where his register is held)
Have you tried to find the marriage indexed at familysearch's Australia Indexed Historical Records https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927080?region=Australia
I see a number of marriages for 15 May 1839 at the NSW BDM online index, with groom as John, but none for the surname TINDALL or variations.
Here is the NSW BDM Codes for those Early Church Records.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
St Lukes C of E, Liverpool is coded CF
Primitive Methodist including Liverpool is coded KE
Roman Catholic, Liverpool is coded LI
Of course it is quite possible that the NSW BDM index has not included the 15 May 1839 marriage, and perhaps it has missed either the page or some pages from that particular parish register. If so, may I suggest that you notify the NSW BDM of the current location of the register, so that they may make arrangements to update their holdings. I am quite sure that they will welcome the update, I have done this on several occasions and while they take their time checking and re-checking and making further checks, the online index does eventually show the 'new' addition (I think it takes about six months at the moment)
JM
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Of course it is quite possible that the NSW BDM index has not included the 15 May 1839 marriage, and perhaps it has missed either the page or some pages from that particular parish register. If so, may I suggest that you notify the NSW BDM of the current location of the register, so that they may make arrangements to update their holdings. I am quite sure that they will welcome the update, I have done this on several occasions and while they take their time checking and re-checking and making further checks, the online index does eventually show the 'new' addition (I think it takes about six months at the moment)
JM
Family trees on Ancestry have the marriage at All Saints Roman Catholic, Liverpool.
The SAG have the registers on microfilm:
All Saints, Liverpool:
Baptisms: 3 Feb 1839 to 25 Sep 1876
Marriages: 14 Apr 1839 to 12 Sep 1855 AND 13 Apr 1858 to 7 Sep 1886
Burials: 30 Mar 1839 to 9 Jun 1924
http://catalogue.sag.org.au/fullRecord.jsp?recnoListAttr=recnoList&recno=43034
The church code for Liverpool R/C is LI and using that, the earliest marriage indexed at NSW BDM is in 1841 (volume 91).
Logically the register should be included in Volume 90:
Vol. 90
Reel 5034
+ 1-end (645)
Marriages 1834-1840
Roman Catholic
Perhaps it is a more recent aquisiton by the SAG?
Debra :)
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Yes, I think there’s problems though with some of the entries at Volume 90. My old notebook has it as St Marys Cathedral, with some transmitted entries from outlying Parishes.
These are notes I made back in the pre internet days. I do not have very much practical knowledge of Roman Catholic marriage certs, but from my old notes after checking with the current online index I find (I could be wrong, just my armchair checking this afternoon)
Volume 90 includes many entries for LD district.
The year 1839, marriages
:) the entries seems to commence at line 373 and stop around line 502 with the remainder of the volume being for 1840 marriages.
:) But line 380 is missing from the online index, and lines 446-478 inclusive are missing, and line 484 is also missing. There may be others, but those are ones I have noticed.
::) :P (I Used the option search by number only YES and entered the line number and the year and when the result comes up, checked out which volume and district is also included in the displayed results).
:) I notice that line 502 of volume 90 for1839 is for the district of VU which was for Norfolk Island
:) Then when I tried to search for a marriage in 1839 for a groom with given name John, and in the district of L* I found marriages for various John and Mary couples, BUT none seemed to be mismashed variations on TINDALL or McELROY.
So if someone has actually found the marriage recorded in the parish register, it would be very helpful to share that info with NSW BDM, and to suggest they recheck other entries in that original register to confirm they have them all. (and to sort out at lines 487 and 489 if the clergy actually did record Margaret Hogan as the groom and Luke Robinson as the bride.) :)
JM
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Thanks majm, and Dundee I have only searched on various message boards and the Tindall Book which I have and they state the marriage date, I am connected through a Rebecca Tindall who married William Mason, thanks for your help I will keep on searching for the proper records. :-[
Janet :'(
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There is a submitted tree at Ancestry which has uploaded a scan of an official transcription of an Early Church Record Baptisms held at NSW BDM.
1842
Line 2242, Volume 26A
Born 4 July, 1842,
Rebecca, daughter of John, a Wheelwright and Mary Ann TINDALE, of Liverpool, baptised 31 July 1842, Church of England, parish of Liverpool in the county of Cumberland. Noted as also indexed under Tindall.
Likely this is the indexed transcription for that baptism. St Luke’s definitely C of E, not RC
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCN-V6K Rebecca TINDALL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTX9-9MQ Rebecca TINDALL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-Z7D 2 Nov 1840, Mary Jane baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHN-RLN 6 May 1844 Emily baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6D-892 22 Feb 1846, Elizabeth Ann baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCR-VHR 5 Nov 1847 Charles baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCG-8RL 27 Feb 1853, George Frederic, baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDY-3VZ 27 July 1854, Emma baptised St Lukes
http://www.stlukesliverpool.org.au/history/
I am sure that both SAG and the Mitchell Library have reels covering St Lukes, C of E Liverpool from its earliest registers.
So basically, I am wondering as to IF the marriage of John and Rebecca was celebrated according to Roman Catholic rites …. I am doubting it. I would expect details about John and Rebecca to be noted on St Lukes family sheets. I do not know if those are extant for St Lukes, but the C of E did provide family sheets to its clergy. Here’s the live link to the ones used by the C of E in the Hexham district (Newcastle) NSW.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ (it is a live link, found at the NSW Resources sub-board here at RChat )
JM
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Afternoon majm thanks for your message and information, I have sent a email to SAG no reply as yet, and to the Mitchell Library about the McElroy's no help here, they like you to visit them and I live too far away to travel to the City. :'( I am also waiting on the Liverpool Library no reply as yet. :-[
Janet :'(
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Morning majm came across the marriage of John Tindall and Mary Ann McElroy on the 15/5/1839 RC Church Liverpool N.S.W. very black to read, no witnesses stated, only their names in running writing, found the Minister a Richard Marum found his web page, trying to find the name in the Witness column it could be the Minister? :-[
Janet :-[
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Morning majm came across the marriage of John Tindall and Mary Ann McElroy on the 15/5/1839 RC Church Liverpool N.S.W. very black to read, no witnesses stated, only their names in running writing, found the Minister a Richard Marum found his web page, trying to find the name in the Witness column it could be the Minister? :-[
Janet :-[
Hi there,
I have some questions :) :)
:) Where did you come across that entry? What are the names in the entry immediately before it, and what are the names in the entry immediately after it?
:) What spelling for the surnames for John and for Mary Ann in that marriage record?
:) You say it is a very black image, have you tried reversing the 'colour' ? So that the 'black' becomes 'white' etc. Sometimes this brings the handwriting to prominence and makes it easier to read.
:) Would you please transcribe the actual image you are looking at, word for word, including any numbers particularly at the beginning of the image (as in perhaps the entry number in that actual parish register)
:) Where the bride and the groom 'sign', are there any numbers written there? Did they 'sign' or did they make their mark 'x' ?
:) Where is the actual register currently located?
:) What are the names of the couple at the very top of the page, and what date for their marriage?
:) Having a look at all the entries on the page, is 'your' couple the only couple who do not have witnesses named on the record?
Re : Rev Richard MARUM.
A quick look through Trove confirms that he was a young clergyman in the Liverpool District in that era. His death 10 March 1842 : http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31735282 12 March 1842 Aust Chronicle.
ADD
can you please include the webpage live link for Richard Marum.
JM
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Morning majm, the certificate said. I do hereby declare that Iam member of, or hold Communion with the Roman Catholic Church. I Richard Marum Minister of The Catholic Church Liverpool do hereby certify that John Tindal of Liverpool and Mary McElroy of same place were joined together in Wedlock by me on the fifteenth day of May 1839 at Liverpool. I told you no Witnesses below and it looks like Richard Marum signed his name. This copy was sent to me by post not email its all black around the page a little bit of white showing in the middle, this was the 2nd marriage on the page. Can't read it the writing is shocking. :-X
Janet :-[
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There is an online tree that cites the marriage as 15 May 1839 and uses the following references.
Historical Index of BDM records, NSW Pioneers Index 1788-1888
Reg No: 7520/1839
To me, reading that 'Reg No:' it is missing some vital details. It is in the format of a civil registration. Civil registration did not commence until 1856. NSW BDM reference numbers, including those on the Pioneers Index for marriage prior to 1856 have far more digits in them and include "V" and also other identifying information. So I am concerned about the integrity of that reference number.
It is a bit like someone informing the tow truck company that a car with number plate "XY 10" was the car that was parked across the driveway stopping you from getting your own car out, and you want the tow truck company to move the offending car and send the owner the bill. Simply put, 'XY 10' does not have sufficient information ... there's significant bits of data missing .....
I would expect the document you were sent in the mail to include all the details that are on the original parish register, including the clergyman's entry number. Those details will help the NSW BDM and the Diocese itself to locate the original register and thus to be able to check that all the marriages in that register are indexed at NSW BDM. I would expect the document you received in the mail to include the identifying reference numbers to find it in the NSW BDM CDs and/or Online Index, so that you can validate the authenticity of the document. :)
Basically, I am asking a very direct question about that document sent to you in the mail .... was it from a private individual or was it a document that you ordered directly from an official source (the Church/Diocese or the NSW BDM/Official Transcription Agent?
JM
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Morning majm the copy was sent to me by a person who works in the Liverpool Library she has been helping me with this family until now due to health problems I don't pressure her anymore. :'(
Janet :-[
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So it may be a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, from a family history folder in the library?
JM
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Even if a photocopy, it may be worthwhile scanning it at full colour (yes, I know it would be b/w) , and reversing the 'colour' so that the black becomes white. It can be an effective way to read the writing on the document.
JM
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Morning majm managed to scan 4 copies didn't make much difference, just a bit lighter. :-[
Janet :-\
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:'( :'(
No sign of any numbers before the clergy's statement at all?
Any clues with the entry above or below? Do they have witnesses named, or space for witnesses but not completed .... looking for any 'pattern' to help archivists look for the original entry.... eg date for the entry above or below ....
JM
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Morning majm again no numbers only No. 2 entry and below No. 3 entry, no WITNESSE'S for John Tindal and Mary Ann McElroy space with a yellow line through, No. 3 entry had two witnesse's it looks like a J homes Cahill and Olive Hogan this is for the below entry, for a Kowly marriage. If you like a will try and purchase the marriage, not having much luck still waiting on replies to my emails. :'( :'(
Janet :-X
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Please don't even consider placing an order for any 1839 marriage cert until we have figured out the correct reference number and determined some of the actual details.
I am not sure that there's any NSW BDM entry to match up to the document you are describing...
Re the KOWLY marriage, can you see any given names for the groom, or given names and a a surname for the bride? What date for that marriage.
JM
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Afternoon majm I am going to purchase the original copy, the other entry below Tindal is the 27/6/1839, a Mary Ann Murphy I think and a Henry Kowly, I have bad cataracts and reading this kind of writing isn't doing me any good. :-[
Janet :-\
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Afternoon majm I am going to purchase the original copy, the other entry below Tindal is the 27/6/1839, a Mary Ann Murphy I think and a Henry Kowly, I have bad cataracts and reading this kind of writing isn't doing me any good. :-[
Janet :-\
Hi,
What original copy are you going to purchase, as not only is there no TINDAL marriage indexed at NSW BDM there's also no KOWLY marriage indexed at NSW BDM in the years 1788 to 1965 (I used just the surname KOWLY firstly just in the groom family name and then just in the bride family name searches? )
Something is simply not matching up.
JM
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Afternoon majm I have just purchased the original microfiche copy of the marriage I can't inform you of the details. :-[
Janet :-[
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:)
But perhaps once you have sorted it all out, you can inform the NSW BDM of the details of the marriages that are not displaying on their online index so that they can eventually get around to locating the microfiche copy of that parish register and check that all the marriages recorded in that register also become marriages found at their online index.
While NSW BDM do take while some time to update their online index, I can assure you that when an archivist and I located a C of E parish register from the 1840s, and we realised that NONE of the baptisms, burials, marriages recorded in that register were available at NSW BDM that once we had informed NSW BDM and they were satisfied we were 'right' they then allocated quality time and expertise and the entire register's ceremonies are all definitely in their holdings now.
JM
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Evening majm I would like to know where her parents were in 1839 when she married John Tindall. :'(
Janet :-[
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Evening majm I would like to know where her parents were in 1839 when she married John Tindall. :'(
Janet :-[
:-[ My resources don't have the details for where the McElroy household were in 1839. But Mary Ann McElroy likely needed the consent of a responsible adult for any marriage as she was not yet 21 years of age in May 1839.
JM
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Evening majm Other family members that I have been in contact with know the records also, that Mary Ann registered her birth in 1836 or 1839 with her husband John in Richmond where she was born, I am still checking on this, as she was born around 1821 and her parents didn't marry till 1824, I am off to bed. :-[
Janet :-\
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Hello all, still trying to find what happened to Mathew or Michael McIlroy or McElroy have received a record of his wife Sarah who spent time in Sydney Gaol in 1830 to 1832 living in York Street Sydney, Mathew was also in gaol at the same time as he was in debt, Sarah was looking after infant children at the same time. This family is somehow connected to a John McKensie Stonemason aged 31 a Michael Cassidy aged 62 servant, and a John Kerns aged 48 carpenter lodger to Sarah McElroy York Street Sydney N.S.W, This comes under the 1828 Census of N.S.W. :-[ I am still searching for more information on this family. :-\
Janet :-\
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Hello all, still trying to find what happened to Mathew or Michael McIlroy or McElroy have received a record of his wife Sarah who spent time in Sydney Gaol in 1830 to 1832 living in York Street Sydney, Mathew was also in gaol at the same time as he was in debt, Sarah was looking after infant children at the same time. This family is somehow connected to a John McKensie Stonemason aged 31 a Michael Cassidy aged 62 servant, and a John Kerns aged 48 carpenter lodger to Sarah McElroy York Street Sydney N.S.W, This comes under the 1828 Census of N.S.W. :-[ I am still searching for more information on this family. :-\
Janet :-\
Back at reply #6 in June 2016 I typed up details from my resources including 1828 NSW census :)
I have now re-read the thread and I wonder if you could please go back over and summarise remaining queries please. I am currently concentrating on 1820-1849 NSW but west of the Blue Mountains.. so I hope other RChatters are able to help more quickly than me.
JM
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Is this his death?
3168/1878 MCELROY Matthew AGE 78 YEARS DIED PADDINGTON PADDINGTON
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Thank you Jamjar and Majm for your input I haven't searched for awhile due to cataracts, Someone has found his death in Paddington to be the wrong one. I will look at 6th June 2016, I get lost some times on this board. :-[
Janet :'(
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What are the names of their children, other than Mary?
Jamjar
Added: Was Alicia Alice their youngest daughter? She married a stonemason.
She died 1910 as Alicia White - her second marriage - aged 77. Unfortunately parents names weren't mentioned.
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I was looking at the Rookwood inscriptions and as an aside the Tindall information is:
Old Church of England Section C Row 9 Grave: 372,373
TINDALL, Mary Ann 29 Dec 1878 57 (think the year should be 1879)
TINDALL, John 09 Nov 1891 72 - Husb of above
MASON, Alfred Berne 26 Mar 1897 21
Jamjar
Added: Alfred is their Grandson to their daughter Rebecca.