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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Dragoman on Friday 04 September 15 13:33 BST (UK)
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On a recent visit to St. Oswald's church, Ashbourne I came across the grave of William Etches, wine merchant, who died on the 9th June 1795, aged 73, and I am wondering whether he was the father of Richard Cadman Etches, the fur trader and later government agent. Can anyone help me please?
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When and where was Richard Cadman Etches born.
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I am not exactly sure about his birthplace but he may well have been born around 1765 possibly in Shipston-on-Stour, Warwickshire, although as far as I know his father, William, was a wine trader whose cellars were in the market place in Ashbourne and he had lived there for many years. I believe William's first wife and Richard's mother was Elizabeth Cadman, born around 1720.
There is another grave in St. Oswald's in memory of Ellen Etches, "wife of William Etches", who died on the 24th January 1850, aged 79 years. I winder whether she was William's second wife.
I do know that Richard died on the 2nd June 1817 in Fleet Prison. His age is given as 52 and he was buried at St. Bride's church.
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Just to put the cat among the pigeons...RICHARD CADMAN ETCHES baptised 26.06.1796 at St Andrew Hol;born London..son of William and Mary................would be very strange id there were two Richard Cadman Etches............and the fact that william "might" have died 1795.does not rule out the possibility entirely...and yet the history of Richard Cadman Etches is so well documented along the lines you state..born in Shipston on Soar etc......that it is probably a massive co-incidence..
Derek
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Just putting the link to your post on Richard to save duplication on him
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=613754.0
I have not read it through (though I note I did reply on it but it was in 2012 ;D )
Where do you get Richards parents as William & Mary from or are you just assuming that the Etches/Cadman marriage has got to be them
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The Richard Cadman baptism is a Parish records entry. a confirmed entry on Family Search..giving parents as William and Mary..and has nothing to do with the marriage of William Etches to Elizabeth Cadman..would be interesting to chase up the origins of these two parents of Richard Cadman Etches 1796.....which I think I'll do just for the crack!!
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The Richard Cadman baptism is a Parish records entry. a confirmed entry on Family Search..giving parents as William and Mary..and has nothing to do wit
Is an image available online
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If you have access to Family Search you will find the Baptism at St Andrew Holborn..Just enter Richard Cadman Etches..............then, as a back up....look for the marriage of William and Mary..which I can't find, but if you enter William Etches and a spouse Mary..you will find under William Etches (father)..a repea tof the same baptism.....
I am beginning to be intrigued, because Richard Cadman Etches appears in a London tax record as Richard Cadman Etches late COLSON!!..now what does that mean??
The alleged baptism of RCE at Shipston on Stour in 1744 does not stand up to the age of Death from the Fleet prison in 1817..and a WILLIAM ETCHES married ELIZABETH CADMAN at Tutbury 01.09.1752................curiouser and curiouser.......
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I have already found the entry on familysearch but just wondered if there was an image you were viewing as transcripts do not always have all the information. The image may show it was an adult baptism. :)
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I have already found the entry on familysearch but just wondered if there was an image you were viewing as transcripts do not always have all the information. The image may show it was an adult baptism. :)
The image is on Ancestry and simply reads:
Page Heading: "Christenings in June 1796"
then the relevant entry is ....
"Richard Cadman son of William and Mary Etches Holborn Hill 26"
... and that's all :(
STG
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There's a marriage on 4 Jul 1789 at St Mary the Virgin at Aldermanbury, London between a William Etches and a Mary Haigh.
And a marriage "allegation" for the pair dated 3 Jul 1789 showing them both 21 or older, William is a batchelor from Northampton and Mary a spinster from Aldermanbury.
STG
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I have already found the entry on familysearch but just wondered if there was an image you were viewing as transcripts do not always have all the information. The image may show it was an adult baptism. :)
The image is on Ancestry and simply reads:
Page Heading: "Christenings in June 1796"
then the relevant entry is ....
"Richard Cadman son of William and Mary Etches Holborn Hill 26"
... and that's all :(
STG
Thank you STG :)
Rosie
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If we accept that there can only be one Richard Cadman Etches, then an adult baptism is the obvious answer, and since his father had only just died, it may be a measure to regularise his position in case of charges of illegitimacy.
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Hi,
On Familysearch:-
2.11.1753
Richard Cadman Etches Father William Etches Mother Elizabeth.
Christening Place - St. Michael's Stafford
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aetches~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AI03789-1
However if you check the film number 291628 it states "bishops transcripts diocese of Worcester"
Confused, - can anyone explain?
Spendlove
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Hi,
On Familysearch:-
2.11.1753
Richard Cadman Etches Father William Etches Mother Elizabeth.
Christening Place - St. Michael's Stafford
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Aetches~%20%2Bbatch_number%3AI03789-1
However if you check the film number 291628 it states "bishops transcripts diocese of Worcester"
Confused, - can anyone explain?
Spendlove
Three things:
1. I can't find a church called St Michael's in Stafford, so maybe it's Staffordshire (somewhere). The William and Eliz marriage in 1752 was in Tutbury, which is in Staffs, but there's no St Michael's there either :(
2. The diocese of bishops don't follow county boundaries. However, having said that, Worcester to Stafford seems to be stretching it :)
3. If this is the Richard Cadman Etches we're after, then his age at death - 52 - in 1817 is out by 12 years. I know given ages at death can be unreliable, so maybe 12 years is within an acceptable margin of error.
STG
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Many thanks for all of your submissions and you will no doubt appreciate the confusion I have encountered over a couple of years now about William Etches and his son Richard. It seems strange to me that nothing is at all clear about Richard's early life, especially when he was considered important enough to have a whole chapter devoted to him in a book called "The History and Topography of Ashbourn", published in 1839. I have a copy and Richard was regarded as quite an heroic figure. It states "Mr. Richard Cadman Etches, son of Mr. William Etches, formerly a wine merchant, in the Market Place, Ashbourn, and whose family have resided in the town for several generations. He left Ashbourn whilst a youth, and entered a large mercantile firm in London." I'm very surprised therefore that the early lives of this branch of the Etches family haven't been better documented.
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There's a marriage on 4 Jul 1789 at St Mary the Virgin at Aldermanbury, London between a William Etches and a Mary Haigh.
And a marriage "allegation" for the pair dated 3 Jul 1789 showing them both 21 or older, William is a batchelor from Northampton and Mary a spinster from Aldermanbury.
STG
I know of a William Haigh Etches whose family I have been researching as my aunt married one of his grandsons if that would be of interest to you.
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Hi,
William Etches of Ashbourne died 1795 wine merchant, in his will he does not mention a son “Richard Cadman Etches”.
Estate was divided between wife Elizabeth, children - John, Elizabeth and Sarah.
Feel sure RCE would have been mentioned if he was his son, even if it was the usual one shilling.
Have no knowledge of the book you mention, but the author could have been making assumptions.
Spendlove
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Hi,
William Etches of Ashbourne died 1795 wine merchant, in his will he does not mention a son “Richard Cadman Etches”.
Estate was divided between wife Elizabeth, children - John, Elizabeth and Sarah.
Feel sure RCE would have been mentioned if he was his son, even if it was the usual one shilling.
Have no knowledge of the book you mention, but the author could have been making assumptions.
Spendlove
Thanks for the information Spendlove. I have discovered a lot more information about Richard Cadman Etches since I first posted on here a few years ago and have even visited the Ashbourne Heritage Society. So I'm pretty convinced that he was the son of William Etches, the wine merchant, who died in Ashbourne on the 4th July 1795 mainly because when Richard set up the King George's Sound Company in 1785 one of the nine partners listed was "William Etches - Merchant of Ashbourne - Father". Perhaps father and son later fell out over business or perhaps William felt that Richard had become wealthy enough not to require any money from him and/or that the other children were more deserving. Would you be able to tell me how to obtain a copy of William's will? I'd be interested in reading it as Richard had a brother called William, probably born c. 1760 and he doesn't appear to be included in the will either. Many thanks.
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Hi,
The will is on Find my past under
Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield and Coventry Wills and Probate 1521-1860
In total there are 61 Etches wills, most of which are in Derbyshire.
You will see that for some Wills eg. William there are two entries, one is an index and the other contains the actual will.
I just searched Etches with no other information.
Spendlove
Spendlove
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Hi,
The will is on Find my past under
Staffordshire, Dioceses Of Lichfield and Coventry Wills and Probate 1521-1860
In total there are 61 Etches wills, most of which are in Derbyshire.
You will see that for some Wills eg. William there are two entries, one is an index and the other contains the actual will.
I just searched Etches with no other information.
Spendlove
Spendlove
Many thanks for this information Spendlove. I will investigate.