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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dunbartonshire => Topic started by: bfr89x on Monday 14 September 15 02:25 BST (UK)
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Is there a source for building plans or approvals. I am trying to determine when a house in Croftamie was built. I am almost sure it was before the 1841 census. It has been known as Dalhougal for many years but I have seen it written as Dalhogle.
Where should I go to trace its history?
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Early maps may be useful and also the local aithority archives section. Here's a few links:
http://www.valeofleven.org.uk/eastlochlomond.html
https://www.west-dunbarton.gov.uk/libraries/archives-family-history/archives-collections/
http://www.drymen-history.org.uk/Resources/archive2.pdf
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/STI/Drymen
There are links in Genuki to the National Library of Scotland historical online maps from which you may be able to identify the building.
Imber
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Thank you very much Imber, I will give the Dumbarton ones a go first as Croftamie was in Dunbartonshire until a few years ago.
I will post any success I have, hanks again.
Ron
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No luck I'm afraid. I found the building on a map of 1860 but no name attached ???
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Finding the history of a house is not easy as most 19th C and earlier are not recorded. You might find it easier to date it based on occupancy through Birth/Marriage.
Croftamie (sp) doesn't appear on any map until the early 1800's beginning with this one http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400143 Croftamy Farm and Toll seem to appear first and I suspect it is part of Fennich
There is an actual plan for Croftamie with the NRS, established in 1814 by Col. John Hamilton who held these lands and Spittal so you can assume it was built after this unless it was originally a Toll house or farm cottage.
Where about is this house?
Don Muirhead
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There are many knowledgeable people here on RC with a wide range of expertise. Would registers of sasines helps with this search? www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=26232.0
Monica :)
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Don thank you. Where is this house? If you know the village it is opposite The Red House (now a commercial operation) and The Wayfarers pub.
On the map you referred me to (John Thomson's Atlas of Scotland 1832) there is something on the location. If you are travelling north into Craftamy immediately after you cross Catterburn there is a road off to the left and then three houses. I am assuming the first to be the Toll House and the second to be Craftamy Farm. It looks to me that the third one is on the site of the house I am after.
It is difficult for me as a relative novice to track it through BMD as even on all census returns available on line every house is defined simply as Croftamie.
You may be interested to know that my great grandmother who I believe lived in the house was a Muirhead (Helen Muirhead 1836 -1927).
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I have relatives above Carbeth and have been through Croftamie many times but don't recall the pub so I checked the map and assume you are referring to the blue house with the large addition.
If Robert Muirhead was Helen's father or grandfather, you might want to check the price and acquire a copy from the NRAS nras@nrsscotland.gov.uk
If it is like the others I have, it will show existing and proposed new builds along with drainage. Some have names on buildings some don't.
Repository code 234
Repository National Records of Scotland
Reference RHP41000
Title Plan of lands at Croftamie set in tack by Col. John Hamilton to Robert Muirheid, with table of contents.
Dates 1814
Access status Open
Location On site (Sighthill)
Description Surveyor: Robert McGowne
I don't have the birth of your GGrandmother in fact there are no baptisms of a Helen in Dunbartonshire during this period but I would be interested in who her parents were.
Don
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Don, Found it again. I am not sure if you received an earlier reply re the house. Let me know and I will resend.
I have several BMD certs on Helen Muirhead and ancestors and am happy to send them to you. Do we do this via this site or private emails. Let me know and I will email them through.
Ron
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Ron,
I have sent you PM with my email.
Don
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Further to Monica's reply re-Register of Sasines, here is their address index pre 1959 for Dalhougal. The number on the right denotes the property search sheet number for each property, which I could obtain. PM me if you need any further help.
Josey
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Josey,
Thank you very much for your kind offer I am sure the search sheet would increase my knowledge even further.
My PM is ron8ken@gmail.com
Ron
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Have you seen the 1860 OS map at http://maps.nls.uk/view/74941084?
Josey
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Again many thanks Josey. The house is marked on there, do you know where I would go to find the Key that explains the colours and the numbers on the maps.
Ron
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If it wasn't for the Saw Mill being red, I would say residential property in red & industrial [edit: non-residential] in grey. The numbers are enclosure [field] numbers. They were changed later to another series of enclosure numbers & the areas included [imperial acres] on the 25 inch to the mile series OS maps. You can see this in 1896 at http://maps.nls.uk/view/82875546. You could email maps at [replace with @] nls.uk they are extremely helpful & knowledgeable people there.
The lease of 1814 was 4 acres 2 roods 30 falls 7 ells. These would most likely have been Scots acres, about 1¼ Imperial acres; there were 4 roods to an acre, 40 falls to a rood, 36 ells to a fall. I suspect, seeing the lease was bound partly west by the road to Drymen & partly south by the burn, that the lease was enclosures 783, 784 & 785.
Josey
ADDED: having looked at the 1896, enclosure 785 is now 657 area 4.742 acres & 783 now 656 area 0.498 acres, so the lease would not have included the 1860 enclosure 783.
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You are so helpful Josey thank you.
The actual house(s) I am interested in are across the road from the area described and are within enclosure numbers 779 and 780. I think that the red one (780) may have been the original and 779 a very large later extension.
The address index you sent is also interesting as I am not aware of any Muirhead being involved in either the sawmill business or the land and the person who owned the mill business was an Edmond and that name is hand written on to the index under Proprieters' Names.
Frustrating and fascinating.
Ron
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Ah, I see. All in new enclosure 651. The grey 'extension' has disappeared by 1896. It may have been a barn. I'll see what I can find.
Josey
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How good are you! Well done.
I am pretty sure that the large grey one within 782 was a timber drying shed which was made of wood and all the red ones are stone built.
Where did you find enclosure 651?
Ron
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On the 1896 OS map, link in reply #14.
ADDED; it seems there were 2 leases by Hamilton to Muirhead at Croftamie recorded on 3 Aug 1894 [1] the one above of 4 ac 2 ro 30 fa 7 el recorded book 321 folio 139 [2] one of 5½ acres recorded book 321 folio 144. The house you are interested in is within the 2nd lease & now occupies 0.12 acres.
However your initial question can only be answered so far to the extent of saying it was built pre-1860!! As far as I know there was no centralised system of building plan approval then, it would have been the estate owner's factor would have had that task, if at all.
EDITTED TO ADD: The document DonM pointed out in reply #7 probably both leases on the plan. The properties appear still to be held under lease.
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It looks like the estate of Easter Catter belongs to this John Hamilton [again as pointed out by DonM] & is part of several holdings.
Josey
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Josey,
Please excuse me, I am easily confused!! The attachment you sent has the names John-John Buchanan and no mention of our old friend John Hamilton. Are you able to link them via some of those numbers scattered all over the document or could it be a different parcel of land.
Regards,
Ron
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Hi sorry, I am so familiar with these pages that I failed to explain!! I daren't post the whole page as the image is probably copyright.
The page was one of the 'Hamilton' section - here is another snippet. So it is the entry John Buchanan Hamilton [apparently an heir to the John Hamilton who granted the leases see http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g5x/ ]. The index shows he owned 5 pieces of land all on the same property search sheet 1430. The first is "Spital of Easter Catter, Temple lands of..." of which the lease was part [see the description in pic on reply #10]. He also owned [reading L - R across then down & L - R again] "Easter Catter 1/3 of 4 Merkland = 17/9 1/3d land [17 shillings 9 and 1/3 pence land = 17s 91/3d]", "Bog or Meadow 2 ac[res] 21 fa[lls] 14 ells", "Shandon 2 ac[res] 1 ro[od] 1 fa[ll] 5 ells", "Templaries teinds etc of".
The money bit refers to how the land was measured - a Merkland was the area of land which could be rented for 1 Merk [old Scottish currency]; Easter Catter would have been able to be rented at 17 shillings 9 1/3 pence - both defined at some unknown [to me] date in history. "Teinds" were the contribution to the maintenance of the clergy.
I will explain later why it was a 999 year lease!! Off out now. Please DO ask anything you don't understand ;)
Josey.
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Hi Josey,
What an incredible depth of knowledge you have. All this has gone over my head at this stage so I'll go to bed and see if a sleep will make it any clearer.
It became more muddied and fascinating when you pointed me to the MacFarlane site as it cross referenced a lot of my Buchanan ancestors - I think! I use the site below for Buchanans and although it is no longer maintained it is quite handy.
Regards and thanks,
Ron
http://buchananstewart.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=buchananstewart&view=9&ver=719
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As promised a bit about why long leases were granted in the 19th century & what happens to them now.
This is my understanding......
From wikipaedia:
Entail is a form of trust established by deed or settlement which restricts the sale or inheritance of an estate in real property and prevents the property from being sold, devised by will, or otherwise alienated by the tenant-in-possession, and instead causes it to pass automatically by operation of law to an heir pre-determined by the settlement deed.
In Scotland it was also called Tailzie [pronounced tail-ey] & the sequence of heirs as proscribed owners were the Heirs of Tailzie. The deeds were registered in the Register of Entails [similar to the Register of Saines]. The deed was called an Instrument of Entail.
If estates had been entailed by an estate owner he/she had to go through the court processes of disentailing it if he wanted to sell or feu off a property or piece of land, then re-entailing afterwards. One way to bypass this was to grant long leases which were not theoretically a sale or feu as the property reverted to the owner/landlord at the expiry of the lease – typically 990 or 999 years. In effect it was just like a feu – perpetual right to the property; but at that time legally different.
From the Scottish Parliament website
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/law/17975/LongLeases
The 2012 Act converts ultra-long leases into ownership on the “appointed day” – this will be 28 November 2015. “Ultra-long leases” are leases that were let for over 175 years and, for residential leases, have over 100 years left to run from the appointed day and, for non-residential leases, have over 175 years left to run from the appointed day.
Under the 2012 Act, compensatory payments for a former landlord are based on the annual rent payable under the ultra-long lease in question. In some circumstances, additional payments may be payable by tenants to landlords.
Some leasehold conditions are preserved and become real burdens in the title deeds.
Josey
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So much detail and background you are providing here, Josey. I am learning a lot from this. Thank you :)
Monica
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Wow Josey, how good are you.
Does all this mean that if it was leased in 1814 for 999 years and is still leased that in November this year it revert to ownership?
Regards and again many, many thanks.
Ron
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So much detail and background you are providing here, Josey. I am learning a lot from this. Thank you
Thanks, knew it would come in handy one day!! :D
Does all this mean that if it was leased in 1814 for 999 years and is still leased that in November this year it revert to ownership?
As I understand it, definitely. The Land Certificate will have to be consulted to see if there are any burdens. I know little about [ADDED: MODERN] conveyancing, just the history of land tenure and its transfer. I will pm you.
Josey