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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: mothball on Wednesday 16 September 15 10:31 BST (UK)
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Hello my local museum is trying to find out what regiment this man might have been in and about what year it is. We are in Brighton and want to find out who he may be. Many thanks.
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smaller size
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Stating the obvious he is a corporal. Has medals so possibly served in India. The lady with the lethal weapon would be his wife. She seems more dressed (with gloves) for a photograph taken in England.
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Thanks Barryd, I can't find out about those distinctive decorations on his lower sleeve. any ideas.
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Have to wait for the experts to see your Post. The wife's clothes will be a great help in dating. This may go back to the 1880's. He's got trefoil pattern cuffs which only go half way round the sleeve. That was what you will see in the film 'Zulu' 1879. I think they were replaced later with 'jampot' cuffs.
Google search is not great, but I made the mistake of making Norton my search engine and that is useless.
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Yes, I have a match for Zulu War Veteran c1879
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Canadian%20military/Canadianmilitia_P1876tunics_sepia_sm_zpsb3432471.jpg)
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Hi Mothball,
Once the Military experts have had a look at your chap, I could then move your post over to the dating and restoration board if you like for them to have a look at this fantastic lady - what what stunning outfit.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Thanks Sarah, yes, apparently the museum has loads of old photos they know nothing about. From doing my own family tree I have learned a little about dating photos. I have asked for an image of the back to help dating but no reply as yet. Many thanks again Steve,
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I notice our subject does not have shoulder straps. May be twisted cord ones. Also his jacket is 9 button whereas the photograph Mothball provides are 7 button. The latter is a superb photograph illustrating Britain at the height of it's power. The body language shouts 'don't mess with us'. Beautiful examples of the helmet intoduced in 1878. The British version of the German pickelhaube. Shortly to be adopted by the police also.
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I would take a guess at Royal Engineers?
They had a 7 button tunic, and the cuffs look to be a different colour to the sleeves?
A blue cuff indicates a "Royal" Regiment, I think.
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Thanks KGarrad and Rgorian, I've done some looking and he may be a Canadian, also as mentioned have fought against the Zulu's, why this ended up in Brighton I don't know.
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/GrantRCanada/media/Canadian%20military/43rd%20Battalion/P1863tunics_zps19147565.jpg.html
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I also think Royal Engineers. The larger medal looks like the Queens South Africa Medal, I can't make out the smaller one.
My photo was taken on return from Boer War c1902.
Jebber
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It is interesting that he has presumably a rank chevron on his cap.
Over the years up to recent times, the badges of rank have had their position changed.
One reason being to not distinguish Officers and NCOs for the "benefit" of snipers.
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I also think Royal Engineers. The larger medal looks like the Queens South Africa Medal, I can't make out the smaller one.
My photo was taken on return from Boer War c1902.
Jebber
I think there are "bars" on the ribbon.
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I think there are "bars" on the ribbon.
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Unfortunately it is impossible to tell, what they are, if there was a name for him, then they would show up on the Medal Rolls. My grandfather's records do not survive, but I was able to work out from the Rolls where he had been, it also helped me find other details which I would otherwise never have known.
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One of the medals looks like a Khedives Star. Which makes the other the Egypt medal 1882 to 1889 or thereabouts
The Militia had this braiding while Regular infantry had jam-pot cuffs. So could be discharged Regular now in the RE (Militia). Do not recall seeing infantry with chevrons on the pill-box.
Ken
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Ah, so you think after Sudan 1885. How about the wife's dress and hat?
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Sorry I have edited the post. From his age I would go for very late 1890s.
Ken
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Thanks for all comments, I do have a photo that I forgot about with similar arm pattern, and someone said it was most likely Kings Regiment, as I know they often merged and changed names, this might be a later version of the one posted. My great great uncle is 5th from the left, they were signalers and photographed in Pembroke Dock where my Great great aunt lived. c1904, some of the men have Boer War medals.
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oops wrong photo
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The man in your original photo is wearing a pill-box cap.
Army Lists website has this to say about these hats:
Soon after the Crimean War a new pattern forage cap was authorized for all ranks in Cavalry Regiments. This was a small blocked "pill-box" cap of crimson cloth for the 11th Hussars, scarlet for the 15th, and blue for all the other Regiments, with a band of regimental lace at the bottom and a gold button and figured ornament in the centre of the crown. The cap was worn tilted over the right ear and had a black leather chin strap. Gold lace was only worn by officers and certain N.C.O's.
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Great, thanks so much KGarrad, that is really helpful, much obliged. Steven
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Good evening,
I would go with Ken in saying militia because of the style of cuff braid. Dating for militia is a little harder because they kept older styles of uniform later than the regulars. Hence 9 buttons, regulars had 7.
Regular army had the style shown in the 3rd pic, pointed cuff with simple trefoil design. This pic is post 1878 because they have the 1878 pattern home service helmet.
The pill box hat was a cavalry hat in the first instance but was also used by the RA with rank chevrons. I have never seen it used by REs but happy to be proved wrong.
The sergeant with his wife is light infantry post 1878 again because of the helmet. He has collar badges showing the bugle horn and bugle horn centre to helmet plate.
John915
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They had Militia artillery as well.
The seated Colour Sergeant has a helmet with the Kings crown. So 1901 or later. Also I remember reading on the photographic section that trouser creases came in late Edwardian period.
Ken
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Good evening,
The pill box hat was a cavalry hat in the first instance but was also used by the RA with rank chevrons. I have never seen it used by REs but happy to be proved wrong.
John915
There is absolutely no doubt that the man in the image I posted was a L/Cpl in the RE, he had just returned from the Boer War where records show he was in the 12th Field Coy. He was still in the RE when serving in Ireland in 1904, through five years spent at the War Office, and until his death as a Q.M.S. in South Africa in 1916.
Jebber
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I should have looked at the flags above his Sergeant's stripes more closely. I think he a Sergeant of signallers.
Ken
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Thanks once more, what a coincidence that the photo in the museum and my own are from the Signalers! Interesting too the minute details of 7 versus 9 buttons can dictate a date for uniform. Very enlightening. Steven
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Hi Steven
Regarding buttons, at times an infantryman would have two tunics, - one with seven buttons and one with five buttons. Best and second best; but not necessarily in that order. At the same time other corps might have nine buttons. So not always a good guide as things changed often
Thanks for all comments, I do have a photo that I forgot about with similar arm pattern, and someone said it was most likely Kings Regiment, as I know they often merged and changed names, this might be a later version of the one posted. My great great uncle is 5th from the left, they were signalers and photographed in Pembroke Dock where my Great great aunt lived. c1904, some of the men have Boer War medals.
Not the Kings Liverpool Regiment. They were not light infantry. Anyway, Findmypast have the service record of Colour Sergeant Thomas Lillis on file. It confirms the marriage to Ellen in Pembroke Dock. At the time of the marriage he was a Sergeant of Signallers.
He was discharged in November 1913. Another six weeks and his record would have been stored in the Arnside warehouse that was bombed in 1914.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo97%2f5344%2f160%2f001&parentid=gbm%2fwo97%2f5344%2f934934 - subscription needed.
He was in the King's (Shropshire Light Infantry). So a royal regiment with blue facings - collars and cuffs.
Ken
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Wow Ken thanks, I have stopped doing my tree some years ago, but any new news is great. More things are being uploaded all the time. I will fill in some info for reading as people have gone to so much trouble.
As far as I can tell when WWI started he was living in London, being Irish born, he was then stationed at Pembroke Dock in 1905 where he married Ellen Morris. I can just remember her as the Morris family were all long livers.
After WWI they divorced as I read somewhere there was so much family disruption and chaos the Government relaxed the divorced laws. They both re-married in 1920 straight after the war and on the 1911 census he is based in Shrewsbury Barracks (Copthorne) listed as a Colour Sergent. Years later in the 1930s once Ellen's new husband died, Thomas divorced his new wife and they re-married in Birmingham, his occupation was Petrol Depot Manager . They both then settled back in Pembroke Dock, on his death certificate he is noted as a retired Warrant Officer.
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Find MY Past is free this weekend, so have downloaded his record, many thanks again, what a coincidence. I am surprised that his job was postman, that was the occupation of Ellen, his wife's brother-in-law. He was in London too. I wondered if the two sisters married postmen by chance!