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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Mark Abbott on Thursday 17 September 15 16:15 BST (UK)
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I am looking for some help with this.
Charles Edward Brownie was born in Dunning in 1871, the son of John Watts Brownie and Margaret Brownie (nee Buchanan). He enlisted in the Seaforth Highlanders on the 23rd March 1889. During his time in the army, he served in West Africa earning the East and West Africa medal with the bar "1898". Charles also received and Army Long Service and Good Conduct medal in 1907.
In February 1902, Charles was posted to the Royal Jersey Light Infantry and continued to serve with them until his discharge on 16th August 1910; sadly, his papers are marked "Insane". His intended place of residence is shown as The County Borough Asylum, Haywards Heath, Sussex.
I know that he married a Mary Grant McBain on 5th July 1902 and subsequently had a son Charles Buchanan Watts Brownie who was born 17th June 1904 in Jersey.
I can find the son on the 1911 Census, but there is no sign of Charles; does anyone have any ideas?
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Inmates of Asylums were sometimes listed by just their initials
Kay
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Thank you Kay,
I think I have now found the family in Jersey in 1911; minus Charles who had I assume by then left the island following his discharge from the army on the grounds on "Insanity". I still have had no luck tracing him on the 1911 Census despite knowing where he was going to live after his discharge.
Interestingly, the census records a daughter, Millicent, who was born in St Helier. This particular census now throws up a further problem, it records the place of birth of the father as Brighton whilst his army enlistment papers show his place of birth as Dunning, Perthshire!
I believe that Charles Snr., lived in the Brighton area and indeed, he had served prior to the Seaforth's with the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Royal Sussex Regiment.
More research!
Regards
Mark
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Hi ,
FreeBMD has a Charles Edward Brownie birth 1st quarter 1873 Brighton.
Also a death for a Charles E Brownie 1950 Cuckfield Sussex , age 77.
Can't see a birth in Scotland 1865 - 1875 for a Charles Brownie.
ev
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ev
Many thanks for all your help.
It looks increasingly like Charles' birth was registered in Brighton.
His service papers however show him as being born in Dunning, Perthshire and a photo of him appears in the book Military History of Perthshire, wearing his East and West Africa medal with bar "1898" in the uniform of the Royal Jersey Light Infantry Militia. This publication identifies individuals born in Perthshire who served in the British Army and Navy.
His mother was also from Dunning and I wonder if he was in fact born there and the birth registered sometime later (for what ever reason) in Brighton?
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His mother was also from Dunning and I wonder if he was in fact born there and the birth registered sometime later (for what ever reason) in Brighton?
Could be , not sure of the rules for registering children at that time.
I see from his records he died 9th/10th September 1950 St Francis Hospital , Haywards Heath Sussex
signed by Ellen H Galloway of Stirling.
Wonder if that was his daughter ?
ev
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ev,
Thank you.
His daughter was Millicent.
Mark
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To add to all of Ev's info above, the Brownie family in 1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQ9F-XFL
Monica
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Monica
Thank you.
On the 1901 Scottish Census, Charles is recorded as being at Fort George and his place of birth is given as Dunning.
I wonder why in all the other returns, he is shown as having been born in Brighton?
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Hi Mark
Just adding link to other post for additional background http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=730994.0
Not sure if you will to the bottom of this :-\ He could have made himself older by a couple of years (c. 1871 instead of 1873) and edited his birth place for whatever reason he thought relevant to do with his enlistment. Hard to say what could be behind this all.
His father was a draper's assistant, from what shows for him. Charles' siblings look to have been born in Brighton too, so, relatively stable family background for him so far from what we can easily see now (without more thorough research).
One question, have you found Margaret Buchanan in 1871? She doesn't look to be in the household in 1871. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFDW-BMM
Monica
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John Watts Downie & Margaret Buchanan's marriage is showing as December 1871. In the 1871 census she was recorded as a parlour maid, born 1845 Perthshire, for John Rotto and family in Brighton. Margaret traces back to Pitcairn Cottage, Dunning, parents were William Buchanan, a Coachman and his wife, Jessie
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Thanks, Br1gau. Just got there!
If Charles Edward was born in Brighton, likely he was first born from this second marriage?
Monica
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I do see that, but could it be that he was born in Dunning in 1871, the son of Margaret Buchanan and ?, the birth for what ever reason was not registered until 1873 in Brighton where the then family were living.
I suspect we may never discover the true date of birth?
Many thanks
Mark
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Mmm...I think it is more likely that Charles was born as you have on his birth registration in Brighton in 1873. His 1881 census, age at death match for 1873. 1891 he had already enlisted from what you have.
1901 he showed as born c.1872 - love the description of the address then: North West Corner Of Parish Of Ardersier - Washed On Three Of Its Sides By The Moray Firth...sounds picturesque ;)
Mark, don't think you will closer to this, inspite of having so much info on Charles...can't think of other searches for this for now.
Monica
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One of the main stumbling blocks to the birth in Brighton is, in addition to the place of birth recorded on his service papers, is his inclusion in the book "A Military History of Perthshire". Only individuals born in Perthshire were included and in his entry in the book, his place of birth is given as Dunning.
I am ordering his marriage and death certificates to see if they shed any more light on the matter.
Sadly, Charles spent the period from his discharge from the army to his death in 1950 in an asylum, having been noted as "Insane" on his papers. Does anyone know if inmates of asylums were buried at local cemetery's?
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When you look at historical references, such as the "A Military History of Perthshire", without knowing how the person/people went about putting together their references to people to include and whether any specific checks were made on statutory records, it's hard to be 100% certain that everything published in this way is correct. It is undertandable why he would have been included in this referece material, given the confusion that still surrounds his records for the army and connected to his birth place.
Have you been able to get anywhere with trying to check his admission records to the Asylum? A very complicated path this for sure.
Regarding burial for him in 1950. My understanding on this is that if family were available and in contact, they could arrange for the burial and the arrangements. If they were not, then asylums would arrange a local burial in common ground of the nearby cemetery they used.
Monica
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Thank you for that Monica.
https://archive.org/stream/militaryhistoryo00athouoft#page/n14/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/militaryhistoryo00athouoft#page/192/mode/1up
The 1901 Scottish Census, records his place of birth as Dunning (the town his mother came from). The 1911 Census has someone "CB" recorded as a patient at Brighton County Borough Asylum, a former married soldier age 39 with the place of birth given as Brighton!
These details fit and his service papers confirm his intended place of residence as "County Borough Asylum, Haywards Heath, Sussex".
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That is great that you have found his 1911 census entry now. I know you were still looking for it a little while ago.
See how you go on the admission and patient records for him. These may include more detail that adds to his life (although not necessarily to the Dunning refs.)...if you are able to get permissions to access them (and they survive).
Sad story for him regardless. He joined the army very young and then by his 30s got obviously so mentally ill. Poor man.
Monica
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Did he receive an army pension? He certainly had a long service. Pension papers for the army often include additional and more 'current' info on the soldier and his dependants.
Monica
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There is a page on his papers that shows he received £27.5s per quarter which appears to have ceased on his death; it would appear that his wife didn't receive the pension.
The person signing the form , "being a medical Attendant or any householder" is given as Ellen H Galloway of 52 Barnton Street Stirling. the words "any householder" are underlined so I suspect Ellen fell into that category. The form is dated 5.10.1950
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I don't have experience on this so can't explain what the fine detail may be.
Just questions really...
Wonder why his wife and children didn't benefit from his pension?
Ellen H Galloway of 52 Barnton Street Stirling, is this on his death details? I saw this reference earlier on one of the posts?
Monica
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Ellen's name appears on an army form cancelling the pension; I wonder if she was in someway related?
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Ah, OK. Understand better. She may well just be Army Admin. If Army were advised that Charles had died, next step would be to cancel his pension payments. Army have/had offices for their numerous activities and functions all over the UK. Maybe this Ellen worked in a Scottish Office connected to pensions and this type of work? Unconnected in any way to Charles?
Why are you certain that Charles' family were not in receipt of his pension following his admission to the asylum?
Monica
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Looking at Google Maps, 52 Barnton Street, Stirling appears to be flats or offices above a Boots shop.
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Walked that way too earlier... The properties look original, certainly likely to have been there around 1950s you would think. Thinking this might have been Ellen H Galloway's home address on record?
Monica
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Ok...so Ellen H(amilton) Galloway does not look to have anything to do with the Army, I think :-\
Her death reg at the age of 62 from cancer, a couple of years after Charles, confirming previous address, below. Her maiden name Johnston and her mother's Robertson.
Two marriages for Ellen. First to Andrew Mitchell, Minister for the Church of Scotland and then Alexander Galloway, a tailor journeyman.
How does she connect to our Charles ???
Monica
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Can't make out connections so far :-\ Except, John Watts Brownie and George Johnstone were both Draper's Assistants by trade.
I think these are the Johnstones in 1901:
George Johnstone 39 draper's assistant b. Duno, Berwickshire (likely this entry https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYB5-L91
Jane Johnstone 35 b. Gorgie (?), Midlothian
Annie B R Johnstone 16
John Johnstone 14
Ellen Johnstone 12 b. Gorgie (?), Midlothian
Wm W R Johnstone 9
George Johnstone 7
James R Johnstone 2
Address: 57 Lower Bridge St. Stirling
Monica
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As additonal info, the Johnston*s in 1891:
George Johnston 29 Drapers Assistant b. Crumstane Duns, Berwickshire
Jane Johnston 26 b. Georgia (?), Edinburghshire
Anne B R Johnston 6 b. Edinburgh
John Johnston 4 b. Edinburgh
Ellen H Johnston 3 b. Penicuik, Edinburghshire
Address:22 Dean Park St, Edinburgh
Still unclear as to what the connections to Charles Edward may be...
Monica
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Hello Monica,
I am waiting for Charles' death certificate to arrive, but I have some doubt if that will take us any further as I would think the person registering the event would be connected with the hospital rather than a family member.
I wonder if Millicent Brownie married a Galloway?
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Not Galloway, but there is a possible death on SP, outside of when you can view and would need to be ordered:
2000 Millicent Brownie other name KNEBLOCH. Died in Stirling, aged 93.
Does this fit with Millicent's birth year?
Some connection then for the family with Stirling in later years. What happened to Millicent's mother, Mary Grant McBain?
Monica
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Millicent looks to have married in 1949 in Stirling. First name of groom not clear from Index: CHES SIMON, KNEBLOCH.
Again, a cert that would need to be ordered for further info.
Monica
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The London Gazzette 1949
Knebloch, Czesla (know as Ches Simon Knebloch). Poland, Mining and Drilling engineer. 52 Barnton Street Stirling
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38718/page/4501/data.pdf
Maybe the connection is simply friends/neighbours sharing an accomodation address?
Monica
Added: That 1949 date looks to be date of the issue of the naturalisation certificate for Ches Simon Knebloch, see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/9?_q=CHES%208&_ps=30&_hb=tna
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Monica that is excellent! At least we know that there is a connection between the family and 52 Barnton Street, Stirling.
I have discovered an individual on Ancestry (private tree) who appears to be the grandson of Charles Snr., I have sent him a message and hope that he replies. I will keep you posted.
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Mark, just seen reference to the private tree you mention. How exciting if you are able to make direct contact. Think this tree contains photographs etc. :)
Monica
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Fingers crossed! :)
Unfortunately the owner hasn't logged on for 4 months! :(
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Mark, just because we get curious ::) You are full of energy and enthusiam on this search. Is this a direct line for you? You have obviously a lot of material gathered already. Just wondered on your connection just out of interest.
Monica :)
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Charles' wife Mary Grant McBain died in Stirling in 1971 at the age of 92. No further surnames showing so likely she did not remarry after 1950 and husband Charles' death at the Asylum.
So, wife/mother Mary and at least Millicent look to have all been living in Stirling area from the late 1940s given we Millicent's marriage there in 1949.
Also, just found a likely death for Charles Jnr, birth year c. 1905, in 1987 in Stirling....
Monica
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Monica,
I am simpy researching the individual soldier!
It is his service in West Africa that started me off.
I have another chap i am working on at the moment who as well as serving in West Africa in the late 1890s, also served during the Boer War (wounded at Spion Kop) and WW1!
I have found a relative of his who thinks she may have a photo!
I will keep you posted! :)
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Thanks for that, Mark. We all get that passion here on RC ;)
Monica