RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: *Sandra* on Thursday 17 September 15 22:14 BST (UK)
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Hi Chatters,
Think this is probably a controversial subject but it might be interesting to hear what others think.
There have been a number of examples in recent months of members whose hobby is buying old albums etc then researching the history of the people in them via posts on RC and using the photo restore board as well.
They get all their census and other information free of charge by using volunteers time and subscriptions/spare credits to the various genealogy websites. They also get the photos restored or coloured FOC.
In some cases the information they gain from our efforts is put on their own web-sites or other forums under the guise of their own work, with no acknowledgement or credit to the people who actually provided the information.
I am fully aware that it's up to the members to decide whether to help or not depending on their point of view. However - many of these posters don't make their intentions clear in their posts whilst others deliberately mislead by phrasing their posts as though it's their own FH.
Is it fair that such people take advantage of a site like RootsChat? Should "hobby posters" be deterred from using our time and efforts in this way?
Interested in all points of view.
Sandra
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I see what you mean, and I recall about three years ago, a person on here asking such questions,
about chairs, IIRC?
I just feel that this thread title doesn't quite accurately describe what the problem is.
How about "Commercial entrepreneurs cashing in on other peoples expertise and knowledge"
A bit long winded maybe, but does that help?
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In some cases the information they gain from our efforts is put on their own web-sites or other forums under the guise of their own work, with no acknowledgement or credit to the people who actually provided the information.
Interested in all points of view.
Sandra
This would be where I would be annoyed. If I am/we are providing a commercial benefit then we/I should be paid in accordance.
I don't mind helping and I don't mind sharing, but I do hate being made a fool of. ( I do that enough myself ;D )
I quite like RC and I feel if I get anything from it I acknowledge it. Just as I would acknowledge other sources of information.
I do know of one poster on the Photo board who has been advised to watermark their pics to stop them from being used elsewhere.
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I don't mind doing look ups for anyone, as I enjoy it and have come to a bit of a standstill with my own tree at the moment. I have done several where people state at the beginning that they are looking into the families of people on the local war memorial, or their village etc and that is fine, as it is my choice whether to continue or not.
However, there have, as you say, been several cases where the question has been phrased as if it is their family and it has only come to light later on that there is no connection. That makes me cross, not that I've given my time, but feel I have been mislead.
It is also annoying when people, not always newcomers to the site, ask for information they could easily get themselves from the freesites. It's almost the case of "I want a Family Tree but I can't be bothered to do the work to find people."
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I don't mind doing look ups for anyone, as I enjoy it and have come to a bit of a standstill with my own tree at the moment. I have done several where people state at the beginning that they are looking into the families of people on the local war memorial, or their village etc and that is fine, as it is my choice whether to continue or not.
I think most of us don't mind and have helped with those sort of requests, particularly this year. To quote one new RootsChat member recently, a French gentleman who is member of the association "Poppies Commonwealth" - tending the graves of Canadian Service Men in France and trying to contact relatives of the families. To that gentleman - A Great Big Thank You for being apart of that organisation, looking after those graves and trying to let those families know about there relatives.
Sandra
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If I ever had anything worth contributing .... :)
I'd like to know if it were potentially a "for profit" venture. That way both parties are on a level playing field.
I'd not mind that somebody were being enterprising, but I'd feel 'taken for a mug' if I'd put myself out for somebody that was raking it in and not mentioning it.
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I don't think the majority of our "hobby posters" are of the commercial variety.
They are mainly people who research a particular person or subject purely as a hobby.
Others buy photo albums or postcards and such like from various sources and decide to research the lives of the people in those albums etc. Again - purely as a hobby.
I think the point being made by Sandra is that by using RC for that research - are they abusing the goodwill of the members and should they be discouraged from posting?
When a hobby poster is "upfront" about why they want help - the reader can make an informed decision on whether to use their time and resources to provide the info
Unfortunately - the majority of hobby posters are not "upfront" and phrase their post in ways that lead you to believe it's genuine FH. We have also experienced the ones who blatantly lie about their reasons for the request.
Some hobby posters are contributors to other forums connected to their hobby and some of us have seen at first hand how they claim credit for info they post on those forums - even though it's come from RC.
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I haven't noticed anyone passing rootschatter's work off as their own. :o
I do know that people buy albums and photos with a view to researching the families and possibly passing the photo/album/inscribed book/bible back to descendants of the original owners if they can be traced. :-\ I thought this was a kind gesture.
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I agree with Ruskie, I have not noticed RChatters efforts being used without acknowledgement. Several years ago many of us were able to help with the Fromelles Missing and then later with two young lads on their school project. The lads uploaded their presentation to You Tube. And from one of those lads giving me advice in private emails, I learnt about You Tube. I am ever so grateful to those two lads.
Here's their presentation ..... notice they acknowledge RChat in the credits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IALnBw95LWs
Cheers, JM
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maybe , rootschat allows a chatterer to post a photo to be restored, from when a quantity of 50 genealogy talk posts has been achieved to show the genuine historian........ as I have noticed there are a couple of chatterers that always seem to have pictures on the boards for restoration..... or each rc chatterer is only permitted say one every 6 months...... it really depends on the artistes doin the restoring i spose...
i have used the photo board three times in the four years that i have been priviliged to use the forum.....
i have some other photos need doing but i feel guilty about putting them up just in case i am asking tooooo much in restoring....
lookups are fine for anyone who asks, but, what i have noticed is there are an extremely large amount of chatterers who seem to be either doing a school assignment or a genealogy course and never come back in response to the research replies......... dunno maybe a survey question needs to be performed by trystan and sarah on the common board?????
just some thoughts.....
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I don't think the majority of our "hobby posters" are of the commercial variety.
They are mainly people who research a particular person or subject purely as a hobby.
Others buy photo albums or postcards and such like from various sources and decide to research the lives of the people in those albums etc. Again - purely as a hobby.
I think the point being made by Sandra is that by using RC for that research - are they abusing the goodwill of the members and should they be discouraged from posting?
When a hobby poster is "upfront" about why they want help - the reader can make an informed decision on whether to use their time and resources to provide the info
Unfortunately - the majority of hobby posters are not "upfront" and phrase their post in ways that lead you to believe it's genuine FH. We have also experienced the ones who blatantly lie about their reasons for the request.
Some hobby posters are contributors to other forums connected to their hobby and some of us have seen at first hand how they claim credit for info they post on those forums - even though it's come from RC.
You got it Carol. If it is a "hobby" buying photographs and letters and deciding to research the lives of the people in those albums etc. Then as you say that is purely a hobby and as hobbies go, they cost money. That's where the hobby needs to be financed from there own pockets.
If you were stamp collecting as a hobby - a philatelist - stamp collector wouldn't expect everyone to buy the stamps for them - would they ???
Is it fair that such people take advantage of a site like RootsChat?
Should "hobby posters" be deterred from using our time and efforts in this way?
Sandra
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This would be where I would be annoyed. If I am/we are providing a commercial benefit then we/I should be paid in accordance.
We already do have RootsChat Rules set up regarding posting for a commercial benefit, and that is commercial posts are only allowed on the for sale/wanted/events board.
The photograph restorations are monitored by myself, with the posts being monitored to make sure that each members photograph gets the attention deserved.
dunno maybe a survey question needs to be performed by trystan and sarah on the common board?
If anyone has any concerns on this subject they can contact Trystan or myself directly and we can answer any questions you may have. I only happened to stumble against this post before having to rush off, members can help get any attention quickly by clicking on the "report to moderator button"
Sarah
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I can't really see what enjoyment people who buy photos etc to track people as a hobby get out of it, if they then get others to do all the work. If I was doing that, half the fun of it would be to try and discover things for myself, not having it handed to me on a plate.
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Hmm, I'm feeling a bit uneasy as I realise that I would probably fit the label of "hobbyist" as used in this thread.
I've got as far as I can for the moment with my family tree and am now researching something that I've been promising myself for years -- the inhabitants of the local graveyard. It's only a small place but it turns out there are so many stories behind the basic facts on the gravestone!
I plan to write up all the info and gift it to the church who are interested in the idea of it being made into a booklet, for sale to help church funds. I won't be making a penny from it myself (but I have forked out where necessary for info).
I've done a LOT of work on this over the last 3 months and am really enjoying finding out more about the area -- and I have posted a few queries here on RC in the hope that someone could do a Derbyshire lookup for me (the church may be local, the records office isn't!) or help me untangle my thoughts with one particular confusing family. I think I have said in most, if not all, of my posts that it is local history, not family history. I'm also well aware that any info provided on the threads will be there to help other people in the future, should they join RC looking for the same families.
Now - am I doing wrong? Because if I am, I can only apologise and say that I was unaware.
ps I should also add that I try to help people with requests if it's in my sphere of knowledge or I have the relevant info, without questioning why they want the info!
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Hi Annie,
No your not doing anything wrong, what you are doing is for the benefit of your community, church and your own enjoyment and is to be commended. You are putting your hand in your pocket and financing your hobby and just need a little help from time to time, there is nothing at all wrong in that and doesn't fall into the category of offenders we speak of here.
We are talking about more persistent offenders in this instance.
Wish you well with your little project and would love to hear if you get to fruition with your little booklet.
Sandra
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:D
This is it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauchief_Abbey
The local landowners owned the abbey as well and enough has already been written about them n t'internet. The graveyard commemorates other local folk - farmers and the labourers who worked for them; the 18th century scythemakers who worked in the mills on the river 1/4 mile away; then more recently, the travelling oxo salesman, the breeder of fancy chickens; the man who died after being mugged, the woman whose brother was known as the "scourge of Eckington" (before becoming the scourge of the Antipodes when the local courts had had enough of him!).
Every stone commemorates someone who had a story to tell.
They may not be my family, but they feel like it now!
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I certainly wouldn't hesitate to help you , Annie, as you are up front about what you are doing and that it isn't your family. The people that Sandra is talking about are those who give the impression that it is personal research, and who make very little attempt to discover things for themselves.
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I have to agree with Groom, half the fun of doing family research is finding the info yourself. I don't see the point of starting out on it and then letting others do all the work, and then pass it off as their own.
I have had help over the years from chatters and it has really been appreciated as research from my neck of the woods is something of a challenge and have really appreciated the help that I have had, it is often that little push that opens a whole new avenue of discovery, and that is the fun of it.
I have always tried to help where I can and will continue to do so.
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RootsChat has some 222,865 members, the majority are genuine genealogy researchers doing there own family history or helping others. Like many others my own research is at a standstill (about 1700) but I get enjoyment through continuing to pay yearly subscriptions to genealogy sites so that I can help others who are not so fortunate and cannot afford the subscriptions themselves due to there own circumstances. There is a great pleasure in being able to do that and the majority are most
appreciative.
The main question was - What about those who buy postcards, letters etc and research the history of the people in them via numerous infinite posts on RC, using the photo restore board and without putting there hand in there pocket to finance there hobby ??? Some members are misusing the photo and restoration board by posting images of photographs where the photographs would still be covered by Copyright. (Copyright of a photograph lasts for 70 years from the end of the year in which the photographer dies)
Others are able to have the same types of hobby, researching through the genealogy sites and financing those themselves with the odd bits of help when they hit a brick wall.
Some members deliberately mislead by phrasing their posts as though it's their own FH.
I am particularly interested in members views on the main question.
We are all here as guests of the owners Trystan and Sarah, without them we would all be up the "swannie without a paddle" because I don't think there is another site that "holds a torch" to this one.
Is it fair that such people take advantage of a site like RootsChat?
Are these posters abusing the goodwill of members and should they be discouraged from posting so many threads ?
Perhaps members are to shy to come forward and give there views but it is only voicing your own opinion on this particular subject.
Sandra
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As ius becoming a bit of a habit with me .... I agree with groom. I've been abjectly grateful for the help and guidance I've been given by generous souls on here, and pathetically pleased when in turn I can help someone. As I too am a bit surrounded by brick walls at present, rather like a less-experienced *Sandra*, I browse around to see if I may be able to help someone else, most times, and maintain my "Ancestry" sub, and enjoy following research in any way I can.
I feel there is a great deal of difference between helping someone to find out something that's a bit obscure, or using your local knowledge to help out, and the posts that after a time irritate me, where someone obviously wants everything, family tree from parents back to Noah, without it costing them anything either in time or money, (expecting people to use FindMyPast or Ancestry extensively on their behalf), argues with people trying to help them, and ( usually ) vanishes when they've squeezed Rootschatters dry, without a thank you!
The joy of untangling your own research, of finding the actual record, seeing even a screen image as a result of your own efforts, with hints from kind others, is immense.
Thank goodness this is a mutual help group, in that lies its strength, but I suspect the best way to deal with anyone you suspect to be semi-professional freeloaders is simply not to respond to their posts, and leave them to their own devices. Having attempted to do some work on some of my own faded family photos I know how time-consuming that can be - I'd never dare to ask anyone else to take them on.
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As I too am a bit surrounded by brick walls at present, rather like a less-experienced *Sandra*, I browse around to see if I may be able to help someone else, most times, and maintain my "Ancestry" sub, and enjoy following research in any way I can.
But I'm not asking for your views on my experience TY - I just try my best for everyone and really don't need your assessment of my capabilities. Like a lot of people I to have my blacklist of those to avoid.
Thanks
Sandra ;)
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As Martha Stewart often says "it's a good thing." RC is a "good thing" because of those who
give freely of their time, their amazing expertise, and their generosity of spirit.
For the hobbyist who needs help now and again, it's a "good thing." People like Annie65115,
two thumbs up :), and I would help you anytime if I could.
For the hobbyist who is a serial poster and wants all the work done for them, why bother. ???
It isn't a "good thing" and two thumbs down. >:( Find another hobby.
Cheers,
DB
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Here are just 4 examples of "hobby posters"
A prolific poster who had an interest in participants of a well known sport and was a subscriber to it's website where he was thanked and applauded for the info he posted. No mention that the info came from RC.
A member who used a photo restore in one of his books and was a very prolific poster on the restore board
Same member bought a photo album on eBay and posted that it had been found in his late mothers belongings and he was researching the contents. Also used RC to research another photo album by saying he had been approached by a member of his local FHS for help. Some detective work by several other members exposed him.
A member who is researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place - for what reason is unclear but his posting counter is substantial
These are the type of posters Sandra is talking about. Not the people like Annie65115 or the people who research for war memorials and similar. We are all happy to help that kind of research as there is a real purpose and point to it.
Many of us know who these hobby posters are and we all have our personal "blacklists" so ignore their posts. However - that doesn't mean we agree that they should be allowed to mislead other members into thinking they are helping with genuine FH research
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On another forum which I am a member, there is an "Ignore" facility.
You can choose to ignore a particular members posts.
We cannot do that on here, can we?
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It all depends on the reason behind the request from Rootschatters for help...as many of you will be aware...I have restored thousands of photographs including some for the unnamed "Historian" as mentioned by Carole.
I also buy old named photos and postcards and often post them for help in dating with the view to tracing descendants on Ancestry using my own subscription....I then contact relatives and either send a copy or post the original as I feel a sense of satisfaction in being able to pass on images that they wouldn't normally have. Although the feedback can sometimes be disappointing, the positives outweigh the negatives.
I think there are very few people who are dishonest in their intentions and those who are should be named and shamed to deter others. Thankfully these are few and far between.
Carol
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On another forum which I am a member, there is an "Ignore" facility.
You can choose to ignore a particular members posts.
We cannot do that on here, can we?
Of course you can - just don't read and respond to them.
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As I too am a bit surrounded by brick walls at present, rather like a less-experienced *Sandra*, I browse around to see if I may be able to help someone else, most times, and maintain my "Ancestry" sub, and enjoy following research in any way I can.
But I'm not asking for your views on my experience TY - I just try my best for everyone and really don't need your assessment of my capabilities. Like a lot of people I to have my blacklist of those to avoid.
Thanks
Sandra ;)
I thought TY was paying you a compliment. :-\
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Aren't we all hobbyists? While I agree that it is wrong to publish or to make commercial use of information obtained on RC without acknowledging the source, I don't see any problem with investigating "anybody who has ever lived in a particular place," for example. I don't see why everyone has to have exactly the same hobby or the same interests. Why should people be restricted to investigating relatives? I don't think I've ever posted a query about a totally unconnected individual but I do sometimes undertake mini-investigations of totally unrelated people because they are interesting or because they might shed some light on my own people.
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I don't see any problem with investigating "anybody who has ever lived in a particular place," for example.
I don't see any problem with it either - as long as it's financed with their own subscription(s) and they use their own time and efforts to look up all the various census entries.
This particular member just selects the names from a free census entry then posts for lookups on earlier/later censuses so the info can be recorded on a database. Many of the people researched were not even born in the particular village - just visitors or short term residents so are often found in other areas on other census entries. This poster has a counter of over 3,000
The odd couple of hobby lookups etc to help somebody advance in some way is really neither here nor there. I think this post is about the "much wants more" poster
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Aren't we all hobbyists? While I agree that it is wrong to publish or to make commercial use of information obtained on RC without acknowledging the source, I don't see any problem with investigating "anybody who has ever lived in a particular place," for example. I don't see why everyone has to have exactly the same hobby or the same interests. Why should people be restricted to investigating relatives? I don't think I've ever posted a query about a totally unconnected individual but I do sometimes undertake mini-investigations of totally unrelated people because they are interesting or because they might shed some light on my own people.
I agree completely.
Not that this would ever happen, but I don't think it would be possible to restrict lookups or photo restores to only family of the OP, and it would encourage more deception as anyone who wanted help for others may be inclined to fib about relationships.
I will see if I can find examples of 'misuse' via details provided by Carole though none of them sound familiar. I must be unobservant. ;)
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Hi Ruskie
Will be happy to provide details via pm
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I don't see any problem with investigating "anybody who has ever lived in a particular place," for example.
I don't see any problem with it either - as long as it's financed with their own subscription(s) and they use their own time and efforts to look up all the various census entries.
This particular member just selects the names from a free census entry then posts for lookups on earlier/later censuses so the info can be recorded on a database. Many of the people researched were not even born in the particular village - just visitors or short term residents so are often found in other areas on other census entries.
I suppose it depends what they are using the database for. If they sell it, then this is not really the thing to do, however if it is given away, then I think it is acceptable. Would acknowledging the help of rootschat make this more palatable? Has anyone suggested they do so? Without being familiar with Carole's examples, I am wondering if could it just be an innocent omission rather than deceit. :-\
Added: Carole, yes, please send me a PM with an example. ;)
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As I see it, the problem certainly isn't people who are doing a family tree for a friend, who are trying to put together details for a war memorial or who are trying to reunite photos etc with their correct owners. It is those who ask for multiple look ups of completely unrelated people, as in the example quoted by Carole. They are also usually the ones who when given information from perhaps the 1861 census, then say, "What about the 1851 and the 1871?" with no please or thank you. When it is suggested they need to buy a certificate, the answer is usually, "I wanted to find the information without having to do that." That's when alarm bells start to ring for me!
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I suppose it depends what they are using the database for. If they sell it, then this is not really the thing to do, however if it is given away, then I think it is acceptable.
Neither applies here - just a hobby
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I'm not sure that requesting help with lookups bothers me if it is just for someone's own enjoyment and interest. If the information found is used for commercial purposes, then that is a different matter.
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They are also usually the ones who when given information from perhaps the 1861 census, then say, "What about the 1851 and the 1871?" with no please or thank you. When it is suggested they need to buy a certificate, the answer is usually, "I wanted to find the information without having to do that." That's when alarm bells start to ring for me!
I have tried not to get on my high horse here but this sentiment also bothers me. I see many threads that seem to be continuations of previously answered threads. i.e ''Looking for Joe Bloggs'' followed by ''Now looking for Mary Bloggs mother of Joe''. Its as if the person , either is too lazy to look for themselves, or doesn't understand the concept of the thrill of discovering something themselves. Or they could be taking the P.
If I am stuck I will ask a question then set off in search , now along the right track courtesy of RC , and find my own information. I figure if there is anything more it will be generously posted.
Takes a deep breath.
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I must admit the things groom has mentioned in posts is what annoys me and makes me suspicious. The fact that the person comes straight back and asks for more census and does n't say say please and thank you makes me think they they are so ungrateful and should get a subscription . I understand some people can't afford subscriptions and certificates but sometimes you need to. The fact they don't check the free sites is another indicator. Any serious researcher checks them. Okay we can all forget a site occasionally but frequently is it laziness or don't they fully know what they are doing?
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I know someone ( I am pretty sure he doesn't post on here, writing a post would be too much of an effort for him. )
He has a wonderful family tree all printed out etc. and what research has he done himself? Exactly zero nothing.
He puts himself about in his local community and always seems to find someone who will do his research for him.
The downside is people who don't realize he has never done any research himself ask him for help.
What does he do? He asks someone else.
The last time I saw him he had a copy of an early 17th century document someone had asked him to decipher, what was he doing? asking everyone he could if they could decipher it.
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I will (in a minute) check I have the correct 'hold' on this Post...
If so,
I think what it is saying is that - 'some' people are using this wonderful 'free' site to help their pocket!!!
Now earlier this year, I almost lost A great contact on here, by jumping to the conclusion that he was in touch with me for freebie research. I was (very naughtily) off hand, with him and for the first time EVER didn't want to help him.
The reason I felt he was not a genuine researcher, was that his list of names and his own name, had nothing to do with the areas he was searching... and he actually was searching for a.n. other person.
SO for a second or two, I wondered, and then wrote to him saying that I was concerned....
HOW VERY WRONG I was..
Yes the research was for a friend - but that friend - was actually MY Relation, and for me that made it all ok.
Besides the research he was doing at the time he shared with me also.
Why I am writing this is to show how easy it is to 'judge' before we actually know the facts.. Sometimes the wrong conclusion can easily be made and then the loss of a GOOD contact happens.
xin
ps I will always feel guilty for my reaction to his message to me. Must have been having a really bad day.. cos I aint that kind of a lady really :-\ honest... it must be my age.. quick to jump these days, SORRY world :) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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uhhm -- I read the previous posts.
and now I am wondering if --- I have been considered --- to be a hobbyist/ serial poster.
Because, yes I have been and am both :)
(apart from when I worked on the restoration board)
BUT it is all - genuine 'Xins' family help that is needed. With my lot I just sometimes cannot find the link or the necessary bit that is missing. So after my own hours of searching, I then ask for help. I thought that is what this board is about. There are so many people on here who are great and quick with help - Which is so very much appreciated.
I will help if and when I can, but I wouldn't have to post on here so much - if I was clever enough to help others. But sure would if I could for 'nada'
:-X :-\ :'(
xin
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No, Xin, that isn't at all what Sandra meant, I'm sure. The very fact that you look yourself, use various resources and then ask for help when stuck doesn't make you a serial poster. Surely that is what the majority of people who use the site do, and why the site was set up? If that makes you a hobby/ serial poster, it makes me one as well!
As I understand it, we are talking about the minority who make multiple requests for look ups and identification of people who have no connection at all to them or their friends. They have done no previous research on them, they just want all the information given to them on a plate and then pass it off as their own research.
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Ohh thanks ~Groom :) bless you, I was concerned that my Patricks were getting me into trouble.. aargh. The worst bunch to search EVER... I imagine :) :)
So I won't hide- away today ;D :o ::) ;)
xin
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"Sandra", As Ruskie said, I did intend that comment as a compliment - I've read and admired the way you are so helpful, for ages. Sorry if it came over any other way - I've nothing like the experience you have at this work, and am in awe of how you so often manage to find information, but would love to be able to be as helpful to others as you are.
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Yes I think that's a good summation groom. It also happens to volunteer researchers in family history society. Xin you do worry ! I think it's more than obvious that you try yourself first!
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Bless you too Weste -- Yep I am a worrier.. or p.i.t.a. as my oh says sometimes ::) :)
I am at this moment 3 sites open and papers all around searching for a missing Ann ... I will find her :) :)
xin
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No prob TY ;D - glad we haven't got off on the wrong foot - I did read and re-read and thought that's a strange comment. Just shows how the written word can sometimes be interpreted.
Its nice to see everyone's points of view - CaroleW has posted a few examples - so I'll bring those forward so that people are clear of the type of things talked about.
Here are just 4 examples of "hobby posters"
A prolific poster who had an interest in participants of a well known sport and was a subscriber to it's website where he was thanked and applauded for the info he posted. No mention that the info came from RC.
A member who used a photo restore in one of his books and was a very prolific poster on the restore board
Same member bought a photo album on eBay and posted that it had been found in his late mothers belongings and he was researching the contents. Also used RC to research another photo album by saying he had been approached by a member of his local FHS for help. Some detective work by several other members exposed him.
A member who is researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place - for what reason is unclear but his posting counter is substantial
These are the type of posters Sandra is talking about. Not the people like Annie65115 or the people who research for war memorials and similar. We are all happy to help that kind of research as there is a real purpose and point to it.
Many of us know who these hobby posters are and we all have our personal "blacklists" so ignore their posts. However - that doesn't mean we agree that they should be allowed to mislead other members into thinking they are helping with genuine FH research
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Sure ly. We could. Come up w ith a "code". Word if you encounter a suspect query/ poster?
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Sure ly. We could. Come up w ith a "code". Word if you encounter a suspect query/ poster?
To a certain extent that does happen, ScouseBoy. I know that I've often had PMs to warn me if I've added information to such a thread without realising what the poster was up to.
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"researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place"
For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with that. Why can't someone focus on a place rather than a family? People have different interests, for goodness sake.
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Some of those examples of hobby posters are worrying. I wonder how much was made on the book. If it was for example helping a family history society to make money it's not so bad but should be acknowledged in any case but if it was for an individual's profit that's bad. Yes I agree we tend to keep our own blacklist. I've noticed sometimes people give a warning re helping certain people when you give someone info who is miss using the site. I can understand an interest in a particularly person but no whole book full.nGiving info on a forum getting the kudos for someone else's work is bad. In respect to restoring photos that's a lot of hard work for the people who do it and it should be acknowledged.
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"researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place"
For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with that. Why can't someone focus on a place rather than a family? People have different interests, for goodness sake.
We are not saying there is anything wrong with there hobby - so are you saying that they should get all their census and other information free of charge by using volunteers time and subscriptions/spare credits to the various genealogy websites. ? Also getting a volume of photos restored or coloured FOC ?
Sandra
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I still don't understand what a "hobby poster" is.
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I have never seen any evidence that RC is plagued by people with a geographical hobby who exploit the good will of others. Certainly, there are no more geographical exploiters than genealogical exploiters.
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I still don't understand what a "hobby poster" is.
Not sure if you have read the thread or just glanced thru it - carolew summed up a few examples in reply 22. Hope this helps ;)
Here are just 4 examples of "hobby posters"
A prolific poster who had an interest in participants of a well known sport and was a subscriber to it's website where he was thanked and applauded for the info he posted. No mention that the info came from RC.
A member who used a photo restore in one of his books and was a very prolific poster on the restore board
Same member bought a photo album on eBay and posted that it had been found in his late mothers belongings and he was researching the contents. Also used RC to research another photo album by saying he had been approached by a member of his local FHS for help. Some detective work by several other members exposed him.
A member who is researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place - for what reason is unclear but his posting counter is substantial
These are the type of posters Sandra is talking about. Not the people like Annie65115 or the people who research for war memorials and similar. We are all happy to help that kind of research as there is a real purpose and point to it.
Many of us know who these hobby posters are and we all have our personal "blacklists" so ignore their posts. However - that doesn't mean we agree that they should be allowed to mislead other members into thinking they are helping with genuine FH research
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I think "Commercial Exploitation Profiteers" would be a better name for it, actually.
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But they are not all of the commercial variety. Some hobby posters are contributors to other forums connected to their hobby and some of us have seen at first hand how they claim credit for info they post on those forums - even though it's come from RC.
Sandra
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Pity someone can't then post on that forum a link back to RC to where they were given the information. ;D ;D Perhaps if that was done a few times it might stop them.
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I'll be honest, this thread worries me.
I am a relatively new poster here, I used to be on another site.
I have asked for help with a look up for Westmorland and in Lancashire, my particular family moved from one to the other. And I have been immensly grateful to the contributors in helping me finally break down a brick wall that I had wrestled with for over 1 year now. The simple fact that a member suggested that the transcript was wrong, which had resulted in me previously trying to find a gr gr grandfather who had been mis-transcribed, gave me the breakthrough I needed. I didn't have enough experience to realise that transcripts could and very often are wrongly transcribed.
But anyway back to the thread, it worries me greatly that I may have been thought of as one of those hobbyist posters.
I thought long and hard before I posted for help, I had tried and tried to search for my gr gr grandfather, on free sites as well as FindMyPast pay as you go without any luck. It was not until I asked here that I got that breakthrough, for which I really appreciate the time and effort that members put in.
Thankyou again for those members who helped me.
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The same applies to you, MadaboutRoses as I said to Xin earlier today. If you've tried for yourself and come up against a brickwall, then asked for help that doesn't make you a hobby/serial poster. If you look at the examples given, you don't fit any of those categories, you are an ordinary poster as are most people on this site. So keep posting and asking for help and don't worry about it.
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The same applies to you, MadaboutRoses as I said to Xin earlier today. If you've tried for yourself and come up against a brickwall, then asked for help that doesn't make you a hobby/serial poster. If you look at the examples given, you don't fit any of those categories, you are an ordinary poster as are most people on this site. So keep posting and asking for help and don't worry about it.
Thankyou groom, for your reassurances.
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I have watched this thread since the start and feel I now have to add my opinion.
Most Rootschatters are not hobby/serial posters, if they have searched all of the free sites for the information they need and then come to Rootschat for help with a brick wall then I see no problem with that, no matter how many posts they make.
The problem as I see is it the deceitful people who claim their research is their own family/friends when in reality it is not, they are using Rootschat to do the work for them and then using the information for their own gain. A certain member of this forum (who now seems to have disappeared) who's posts have been mentioned earlier by CaroleW was a typical offender. I helped him in one particular thread until I was advised by CaroleW of his motives. We later discovered that he had bought a photo album from ebay and claimed it to be from his late mother's belongings (as mentioned earlier by CaroleW). I was disgusted that he claimed it to be his late mother's album when clearly it was not. He was just trying to gather information (much of which he could have found for himself from the free sites) from Rootschat for yet another book.
I have no problem whatsoever with people who post lots of threads when they have tried to find what they can from the free sites, I am more than happy to help if I can.
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Call me naive but I didn't know these people existed and neither would it have occurred to me before reading this thread. That's abusing RC and it's members and shouldn't be allowed, it's plain wrong!
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Have read thread from start to finish, wrestled with the concerns raised and resonated with some of the responses. Considered responding, discarded thought due paranoia about my relative inexperience and then reconsidered.
"RootsChat has some 222,865 members" (early post on this thread). From my observation I would think that the genuine "offender" % is minuscule. The enormous majority are either extremely generous with their time, resources and knowledge and/or are interested in history (family, community, geographical) and/or cluelessly thrashing about trying to work out how to economically and practically research OR are somewhere in between and are very grateful for any assistance and direction.
If one "gives" then give without expectations of receiving (be it a "thank you", or an acknowledgement or reward). To "give" with any expectation can often lead to disappointment. It's a personal decision to give - we all have this choice.
If a person is concerned that a rchatterer is "up to no good" then we all also have choices:
1. Note, ignore and move on (like turning off the television)
2. Confront (having weighed up your evidence and assessed the likely consequences)
3. Alert (either hit the "notify" button on this site or email site of concern elsewhere)
Am now off in paranoid fashion to re read all my posts to see if I could be misconstrued as the minuscule % offender.
Cocksie
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Cocksie, I think you have summed it all up quite well ;)
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I agree, Cocksie has summed it up well.
May I mention one concern. I think if after we have contributed to a thread, we later become concerned about a particular RChatter's intentions perhaps being less than honorable, then I think we should simply let the moderator know of these concerns.
Of course, it would be very easy for any person who has been 'named and shamed' so to write, to simply obtain a new email address and come back in disguise.
Cocksie, you can rely on me to strive to help your Aussie quests :) particularly your NSW ones.
So, while the efforts of our photo restorers is often of greater hours and hours of commitment to one poster's quest, I know of quite a number of RChatters who spend hours and hours on the other boards looking through their own resources or contacting other non RChatters all to help with quests. I think just the once last year we noticed a professional genie around the Aussie Board. Within the week the person had ceased posting. It was all handled discreetly.
Cheers, JM
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Call me naive but I didn't know these people existed and neither would it have occurred to me before reading this thread.
Same here a-l, I've thought they no doubt are around but never seen anything which pointed to that problem, so I'm grateful to the people who have posted on this topic for bringing it into the open. I've possibly seen the post/s regarding the photo albums that have been mentioned, there's a niggle in my mind saying I have but I obviously didn't put two and two together.
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Cocksie, I think you have summed it all up quite well ;)
;D I agree, assuming good intentions of all.
Is it too late to add...
I have recently bought the registers for a parish that is only partially available on FindMyPast and was wondering if I am the flip side of this question ...
To paraphrase Little Brittain ... I am the only one with the village ;) :-[ ... I've posted answers to a few PR lookups and was feeling slightly paranoid about this. And just like davyd, haha, I will not be proved to not be unique at all ;D
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The irony of course is I don't know of these other forums as I only use RC ;D
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I still don't understand what a "hobby poster" is.
Nor do I. Analysis to paralysis springs to mind. Step carefully chaps or we'll start to move towards the infighting that characterises certain sites. In my experience most of those who participate on here on a regular basis are bright enough to know when to pull the plug. There are sites where some bossy members take it upon themselves to police things. Let's not go anywhere near that. Just let the mods do their stuff.
Imber
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"researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place"
For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with that. Why can't someone focus on a place rather than a family? People have different interests, for goodness sake.
We are not saying there is anything wrong with there hobby - so are you saying that they should get all their census and other information free of charge by using volunteers time and subscriptions/spare credits to the various genealogy websites. ? Also getting a volume of photos restored or coloured FOC ?
Sandra
I agree with Erato's comments. In this example, I see no harm whatsoever.
Sandra, your concerns should also apply to anyone who requests any lookups, where the information is obtained from pay sites. I don't see the difference between being given information from pay sites for someone researching their own family history, and someone being given information about people within a village from the same sources.
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I agree with Ruskie and Erato regarding look up requests.
I recall those absolutely interesting threads to do with The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson and the efforts so many RChatters put in.... or the search for the owners of the Teddy Bear at Bristol Airport .... or as I have mentioned earlier, the Fromelles Missing searches .... (Add, or on the Aussie Board, the Clarke Family Bible being restored to descendants)
I think the proverbial line in the sand revolves around just a few RChatters who ask for multiple photos/albums etc to be improved or identified and then once this has been sorted, the benefiting RChatter has been caught out with uploads on other websites ie the RChatter or someone else is e-publishing the work without expressly acknowledging in that new work that there's RChatters who actually did the restorations .....
Cheers, JM
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My pet hate is those serial posters who ask over and over again very similar requests, and either don't appear to want to learn, or just want somebody else to do their work for them?
E.G. There is an RC user who has posted over 120 times for translations from a particular European language to English. Has he not learned anything after 120+ translations?! ::)
Another example: A user who only seems to request census look-ups? And of seemingly unrelated families? He has something like 275 separate topics now! :o
This kind of thing bugs me, but that is only my personal view.
I deal with this by not replying to the posts (or even reading the posts!).
If I detect (in my opinion) users who might be professional or semi-professional researchers, wanting free research, then I ignore them, too.
Occasionally other, like-minded, RCers and myself exchange PM's about such people.
So I know it's not just me! ;D
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"researching anybody who has ever lived in a particular place"
For the life of me, I can't see what's wrong with that. Why can't someone focus on a place rather than a family? People have different interests, for goodness sake.
We are not saying there is anything wrong with there hobby - so are you saying that they should get all their census and other information free of charge by using volunteers time and subscriptions/spare credits to the various genealogy websites. ? Also getting a volume of photos restored or coloured FOC ?
Sandra
I agree with Erato's comments. In this example, I see no harm whatsoever.
Sandra, your concerns should also apply to anyone who requests any lookups, where the information is obtained from pay sites. I don't see the difference between being given information from pay sites for someone researching their own family history, and someone being given information about people within a village from the same sources.
I, too, don't understand the difference between asking for information about a place or a family.
If you subscribe to a pay-site (I subscribe to both FindMyPast and Ancestry), and somebody asks for a look-up, you have a free choice whether to subsidise their hobby or not. If I have the time, and the question seems interesting, I do so. If someone makes multiple requests and I think "buy a subscription", then I don't. We all make individual choices.
Of the other examples of "hobbyists" listed, there seem to be easy answers.
1. Those of you who use other forums, and spot people passing RC research off as their own - call them out, both here and there.
2. If someone wants a whole album of photos restoring, and they don't say thank you - don't do it. There are people (now gone) who I stopped doing restores for, for this reason.
3. If you suspect someone is a professional researcher, saving time and money - report to moderator.
Mike