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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Huntingdonshire => Topic started by: Finley 1 on Saturday 03 October 15 10:48 BST (UK)
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I have searched and searched, but maybe not looking properly :-X
for the death of : George Alfred Patrick -- born 1872 Huntingdonshire.
he marries in 1898 a Mary Jane Blanchard Chester, they have one daughter Gladys Lizzie.
So I know I have the correct 'probate snip' as per attchd but just cannot find a death.
His wife I have found, she died in 1955 with a registration district of Huntingdonshire.
Her probate snip shows her as living at 8 Church Green Ramsey, Huntingdonshire. A beautiful place by the looks of a 'google' search, just not sure which one is actually Number 8. :) but lovely.. whoops - wandering off..
So really just need to know where he died and possibly buried.. for future grave hunting days :)
Thanks
Xin
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Where are you looking? On Freebmd, every single Patrick death for Mar Q 1951 is missing - there should be about 20, judging by the previous and following quarters. I haven't tried on any pay sites.
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On Freebmd, every single Patrick death for Mar Q 1951 is missing -
You can look at the GRO index for where Patrick names should be in this quarter on freebmd by searching the surname Paton which brings up the right sheet. However there are no Patrick deaths listed in March qtr 1951 it goes Paton - Patrickson - Partridge
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That is strange I wonder if it has been indexed as Paton ::) I just searched for a George A in March qtr 1951 in Huntingdonshire and there were only two results
Death Mar qtr 1951
George A Paton
age 78
Huntingdon reg district 4b 451
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What about contacting the local Municipal Cemetery to ask them to check their burial/cremation records - they may charge a small fee though - but you would know if he was buried or cremated there.
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There are about 7 public trees on Ancestry, none of which has a death recorded for him, so looks as if you are not the only one having a problem with his date of death. However a 1911 census shows him still alive at that time, in West Bridgford, Nottingham!
Hope this might help.
Jeanne
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Hi Xin
Mary Janes probate shows her usual address and where she died (hospital). George Alfreds only gives usual address and date of death. I would think that he died at home. :-\
There are about 7 public trees on Ancestry, none of which has a death recorded for him, so looks as if you are not the only one having a problem with his date of death.
The date of death is known as it shows on the probate index, we just can't find the death registration on the GRO index ;D
Rosie
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That is strange I wonder if it has been indexed as Paton ::) I just searched for a George A in March qtr 1951 in Huntingdonshire and there were only two results
Death Mar qtr 1951
George A Paton
age 78
Huntingdon reg district 4b 451
I think that's the answer. If you cross-check the probate index with the death index, there are other PATRICKs with probate in that year whose deaths appear to be indexed as PATON in Mar Qtr 1951 (e.g. Dorothea Anna PATRICK, and Charles Thomas PATRICK).
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Thanks Bookbox ;D
Xin,
I think I know what has happened. If you look at the surname Paton on the GRO index for March qtr 1951 that is available to view on freebmd it starts with Alexander and goes alphabetically to Susanna, then it starts again with Alice G and goes to the end of the alphabet. It would appear that they have left the surname off the index when it restarted as Alice G - I have checked most of the first qtr 1951 Patrick probates and they all match with Paton names and areas in the Paton list after Alice G. Hope that makes sense
Rosie
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Wow
Again brilliant responses, and here was me traipsing around the local supermarket, not concentrating on the food shop -- just wondering where old George was -- :) its no wonder, the locals look at me skew whiff - crazy lady in the aisle. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anyhow, I really appreciate all your work and I am going to risk a quick £9.25 on the one that seems to be correct --- George Paton 4b - 451 but will ask for it to be checked.... first :)
thank you xxx
xin
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Let us know how you get on Xin ;D
Rosie
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Yes will do, I am sure that will be the correct one... so fingers crossed
here's a pic of the house I am hoping they lived in - in Ramsey - its lovely - but it could well have been the one next door, :) :) not sure which is no 8..
xin
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That is a lovely house Xin. I think it is number 9 though :'(
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g8y/
I think number 8 is the one to the left
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g8z/
Rosie
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No 8 is a listed building though ;D
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-54431-8-church-green-ramsey-cambridgeshire/comments#.Vg_zgPlVhBc
I think most of them along there probably are. No 7 which is a single storey building is also listed and is described as an estate office
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If you order it exactly online as it appears in the GRO index, as Paton, the GRO should send you the 'correct' cert with the surname as Patrick.
If however someone there reads the cert before despatch and thinks you have ordered incorrectly, you'll get your £9.25 back.
In this case it might be worth your while phoning the GRO (0300 123 1837 not a premium rate number) and order over the phone explaining that you think there is an error with the compilation of the index.
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Might be worthwhile adding a postem to the freebmd transcriptions for the Patrick entries listed as Paton along the lines
GRO index is incorrect. Entry should be recorded with the surname Patrick.
Freebmd (et al) won't do anything as their transcriptions correctly show what is in the index. So these Patrick deaths won't ever be found unless someone does a first name, surname PAT*, (where * is a wildcard) and year search or a first name and reg district search
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I had thought about doing that Dawn and mentioning the probate index entry.
I will (in a bored moment ;D ) add notes to the rest of them that are after the entry for Alice G. It is a shame that freebmd don't have a facility for listing these errors.
Rosie
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Thanks for lovely info re the house :)
and thanks Dawn for helpful info re ordering cert. Maybe I will ring first :)
I hardly dare - tell BMD they have it wrong, I did read the notes on reporting an error, and thought uuhmm... needs reading again and thinking about :)
Rosie you are braver than me :)
But YES it does need sorting cos as has been noted - there are a lot of Patricks down as Paton and a lot of confused re-searchers out there.
:D
xin
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Xin, I have started to do postems on freebmd. I will finish them tomorrow as I'll have to stop to eat soon.
Rosie
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Brilliant :) Well done you - all that work, excellent.
the future Patrick researchers will bless you :)
xin
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It shouldn't take long Xin. Hopefully those I have done will show up tomorrow
Rosie
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:D :D :D :D :D
xin
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Xin
I did not do your George Alfred until this morning. I have done the rest of them now so hopefully they will all show with postems tomorrow.
Rosie :)
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Brilliant Rosie, that's what 'sharing' is about..
You have helped so many Patricks now :) :)
xin
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Brilliant Rosie, that's what 'sharing' is about..
You have helped so many Patricks now :) :)
xin
But only if they search Pat* :(
Sadly there is no other way of approaching it and it won't show on the indexes under Patrick. I wonder if it is worth getting the Mods to alter this post title to include 'Surname Patrick death 1st qtr 1951 Missing' then anyone googling may pick it up.
Rosie
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Dawnsh
Thank you for the suggested wording for the freebmd postem :)
Rosie
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I'll change the topic title of the opening post.
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Thank you dawnsh :)
Rosie
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The name could be changed on Ancestry to Patrick
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Thats a good idea, presumably to do that you need a subscription. :-\
Rosie
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I'll do it Rosie (when I've worked out what needs doing!)
Later: Done!
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Thank you Bedfordshire boy :)
Rosie
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I emailed the GRO and told them about the error.
Here's their reply
""Thank you for your enquiry.
If we find an error in our Indexes we have a rolling programme to update an electronic index which captures index errors held here at The General Register Office (GRO) in Southport.
You may wish to send us the relevant details including a photocopy of the birth death or marriage certificate.
General Register Office
PO Box 2
Southport
PR8 2JD
Unfortunately, due to the logistics of such an exercise, it would be impossible to update all the copies of our indexes, of which there are over 400+ in circulation around the world. Index holders are aware of the existence of errors and GRO does not in any way warrant the accuracy or completeness of the data supplied.
Regards
Shirley Hallmark
Email Team, First Point of Contact
Civil Registration"
if you do get around to ordering the cert might be an idea to take them up on this as they appear not to act on undocumented discrepancies.
If you do order you should get a cover sheet with the cert which should show the surname PATON if this is how it is ordered. You should send this also.
If not a copy of the index page might be useful.
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Thank you Dawn
whats the word I am looking for --- uhm -- cant think --- never mind..
Ok so will read it again and decide what to do... Really appreciate your help
xin
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Only contact the GRO after you have the cert and if you think it will be worthwhile.
It would appear that the GRO will not 'take my word for it' by email that there is something wrong with the 1951 index.
They need proof but you will have to go out of your way to send them it.
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At one time, if you went to the FRC with all this type of information, they would look at it and amend the big ledgers as well as do whatever they do behind the scenes.
That's how there are handwritten entries on the scans.
The FRC has gone, so have the ledgers and with so many copies of the index out there, they can't change everything.
We have amended freebmd which is, I would suggest, the most popular source, but results will only turn up if people search on PAT*.
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I wonder whether they would accept the fact that we can link over 10 of the entries after Alice G on the list with the probate index under the surname of Patrick.
Rosie
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So ... IF I order the cert as per a normal order -- and ask for it to be checked first??
I order it as Paton and add a note that the actual name should be Patrick and if so then
Carry on with the order...
will that work ........
xin
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if you order online you can't asked for it to be checked as you have to enter the gro reference numbers.
if you order the certificate without the reference you do get extra fields to fill in but there isn't a text box 'advising' the gro to look under Paton. I know the gro staff use the index and may still not find the correct entry. And it will take 15 days at the end of which you may get a refund.
I've added a screen shot for ordering without the reference
Which is why I suggested ordering by phone so you can explain to whoever answers the phone that there is a potential problem with the index.
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Dawnsh
Do you think it would be worthwhile posting them the copies of the probate lists along with a letter of explanation. They could at least spot check those that appear on that list. :-\
Rosie
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As long as someone doesn't mind the cost of a stamp and copies of the probate calendar.
The GRO don't have a freepost address.
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OK I'll do it ;D It is worth a try.
Rosie
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Oh I am getting confused, but it doesn't take a lot these days.
Rosie it should be me paying for that...
AND I will ring them tomorrow, and order the specific cert... I will wake up refreshed and re - think it all tomorrow :) go through this nice and slowly..
Sorry to seem so dumb, ..... :-\
xin
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Dear Xin, Please don't get confused :)
I have sent you a PM
Rosie :-*
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thank you :)
xin
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well - brain in gear, but phone line engaged aaaargh...
However, I am going to put off buying the cert just now... As the only definite - it will give me, apart from what I already have is the informant.
I know I haven't got his actual 'PLACE' of death... but will worry about that if I ever need to take a trip down to check for graves for this particular branch of the family. :)
Hows that... !!! phew... I hope that I haven't put anyone out by ending up NOT sending for the cert, but on reflection - I do have a few rellies, with more questions - that the certs will answer, that I feel I need to send for... First ... if that is understandable...
Dark corner time coming up..
The Patricks have really been and interesting and wide branch, every day I am hoping I am near completion, and every day a new problem or interesting turn.. bless em all...
Xin
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Death certificates are one of those that I tend to leave unless I am desperate for some sort of clue ;D You certainly have not put anyone out by not sending for it. I will now write to the GRO and see if we can get all of those wrong Paton entries changed to Patrick. Will let you know if they reply to me ;D
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie, yes please do :) :)
xin
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I have had a reply from the GRO this morning after telling them that all the Paton names listed after Alice G should be Patrick and providing them with copies of the probate index to back it up.
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Thank you for providing evidence of the error in our indexes, we will now update the paper indexes held at The General Register Office (GRO) in Southport.
Unfortunately due to the logistics of such an exercise, it would be impossible to update all the copies of our indexes, of which there are over 400+ in circulation around the world.
Index holders are aware of the existence of errors and GRO does not in any way warrant the accuracy or completeness of the indexes.
At least they are recording them at their end and did not need you to buy a certificate to back it up. We did not expect them to circulate the amendments.
Rosie
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That was the same wording as I had in an email.
At least the source has been amended, that the main thing but I haven't seen any postems on the relevant Paton entries yet.
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That was the same wording as I had in an email.
It also came from
Email Team
First Point of Contact, General Register Office
Civil Registration
obviously a standard letter even though it was sent snail mail. :)
There were postems on all of those entries on freebmd when I first did them. I have just looked and they have all gone . I have just gone back into freebmd and they are there ::) Maybe they just took a while to load
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Thank you both -- future Patrick re-searchers may not go quite as crazy - as I have...
:) :)
eee wot a crew they 'really' were, bless em
xin
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-- future Patrick re-searchers may not go quite as crazy - as I have...
I wouldn't bank on it xin, the information is still not that clear but at least GRO are altering their records so we must have got it right ;D ;D
Rosie