RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: ladyk on Monday 05 October 15 04:24 BST (UK)
-
Hello friends - My great-grandfather, John Reid, was born in Abbey poorhouse in Neilston, Renfrewshire in 1872. I'm embarking on a mission to find out who his father was! I'm going to use dna analysis and corresponding family trees to narrow the search down to the right time and place and age group, etc. I have some hope, because of the very good 1871 census that was done in Scotland, the year prior to John Reid's birth. My first problem is that I do not have a census report for John's mother, Caroline Reid, for 1871. I would like to have this to be sure that she was in the area where I think she was in the year prior to the birth of her son. I do have her in the 1861 census as boarding in Collier Street, Johnstone, Renfrewshire at age 13, presumably working in the mills. The next record I have for her is the birth of a first child, William, (at least I'm pretty sure it was her) in Neilston in 1870, then the birth of John in 1872 at the poorhouse. She died in 1881 at another boarding house in Neilston (which is about 3 miles down the road from her 1861 home in Johnstone). I'm wondering if perhaps she journeyed to visit her father during 1871, as he was dying at that time. If so, she may have been at Armadale, West Lothian at the time of the census. Unfortunately I don't know in which month her father passed away, only that it was 1871. Is there anyone out there who has the ability to search the 1871 census more in depth than I can on ancestry? Caroline Reid was born in 1848 in Dalmellington, Ayrshire. Her parents were John Reid and Caroline Matilda Fergusson. However, her mother died either at or shortly after Caroline's birth, and her father remarried to a woman named Hannah Geddes. They had several more children together. If anyone can find a census report or any other documentation of Caroline's whereabouts around 1871, you'll win the genealogist sleuth of the year award! Not to mention my eternal gratitude. ;) Thank-you in advance.
ladyk
-
Good luck just remember at the present time DNA cannot even prove that one known man is the father of another known man.
It can however prove that one man is not the father of another
Cheers
Guy
-
If I am reading your post correctly, you do not have a possible 'suspect' for the child's father just a rather vague area in which he might have lived? If that's the case it's rather like a needle in a haystack unless a relative of the father has actually participated.
-
Had you looked at Poor Law Applications?
http://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/ExploreRecords/Pages/Poor-Law.aspx
S_L
-
Good luck just remember at the present time DNA cannot even prove that one known man is the father of another known man.
It can however prove that one man is not the father of another
Cheers
Guy
Yes, I'm using the dna results as a guide to find family descendants and work from there through records to pinpoint the actual person.
-
If I am reading your post correctly, you do not have a possible 'suspect' for the child's father just a rather vague area in which he might have lived? If that's the case it's rather like a needle in a haystack unless a relative of the father has actually participated.
Well that's what I'm looking for. Descendants of this man's family. I have well over 4,000 dna matches to start with. It is a bit like a needle in a haystack, but not impossible if I'm lucky and the records come through. I have had many successes in proving ancestral lines back to individuals so far with dna data, it's just that I don't know this man's name! YET! ;D
-
Had you looked at Poor Law Applications?
http://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/ExploreRecords/Pages/Poor-Law.aspx
S_L
Thanks for the resource, I shall go and explore! :)
-
Well that's what I'm looking for. Descendants of this man's family. I have well over 4,000 dna matches to start with. It is a bit like a needle in a haystack, but not impossible if I'm lucky and the records come through. I have had many successes in proving ancestral lines back to individuals so far with dna data, it's just that I don't know this man's name! YET! ;D
As I said, that approach will only have a chance of working if there is matching dna in the same database to compare the results.
-
Well that's what I'm looking for. Descendants of this man's family. I have well over 4,000 dna matches to start with. It is a bit like a needle in a haystack, but not impossible if I'm lucky and the records come through. I have had many successes in proving ancestral lines back to individuals so far with dna data, it's just that I don't know this man's name! YET! ;D
As I said, that approach will only have a chance of working if there is matching dna in the same database to compare the results.
Exactly so. I'm counting on there being at least one out of 4,000 plus people who match my dna
-
ladyk, I love always the passion and energy - vital as we know for these searches :)
If you at this point, I would go next to checking whether Catherine Reid ever applied for poor relief. Given the circumstances, I would think it is likely :-\
You need to check who now maintains these records today. From here, www.myainfolk.com/Resources_files/Records_of_the_Scottish_Poor.pdf - two records show for Abbey on page 36:
Abbey Parochial Board: Registers of Poor 1858-1893 (Paisley Central Library refs. B57/8/1 & B57/8/3-8)
Abbey Parochial Board: Record of Applications 1859-1895 (Paisley Central Library refs. B57/12/1-40)
If you are lucky enough to find poor relief applications, it may take you closer to the actual names of reputed fathers for Catherine Reid's children.
Monica :)
-
Hi Ladyk,
First of all I wish you good luck with your quest :).
I thought I would try and help by using the records available to try and work out where Caroline was in 1871. You mention the death of her father John Reid in 1871 and the location of Armadale, West Lothian. I have searched on Scotlands People and can find no death for a John Reid in West Lothian between the years of 1870 - 1871 ??? What evidence do you have please that John Reid died there ?
You also mention Caroline having a son William Reid in 1870 at Neilston. Do you know what happened to this boy? Did he die? Or should he be on the 1871 Census too?
Looby :)
-
Looby, thank-you for your interest in my needle-in-a-haystack endeavor! Most of the information that I have on Caroline Reid and her family came from this forum. About 2 yrs ago, two lovely ladies in Scotland helped me to find her and unravel her sad story. I looked back in those messages to find out where I got the info about Caroline's father John Reid's death. Apparently they found the death of John's wife, Hannah Geddes Reid, in Armadale in 1870 and her husband was listed as living. Then they were unable to locate John Reid in the 1871 census living with any of his children, so they assumed that he probably died 1870 or 1871. Armadale was the best guess, simply because his wife had died there, but if he then lived with one of his children, they were, by then, spread out in different places, such as Ayrshire and Lanarkshire. In other words, I don't have a certain death date for John Reid, Caroline's father. As for her son William, there is only one record of him that I know of and that is the birth record. He probably was either adopted out or he died young. I have searched for him as an adult and there are 2 William Reids born in 1870 in Neilston, but no way to know if either of them is Caroline's child. If only I could place Caroline in the 1871 census, it would help me immensly in pinning down her child's (or children's) father. I only have her in the 1861 census in Johnstone, and then her death in 1881 in the boarding house in Neilston. I looked into searching via Poorhouse records as someone had suggested, but those records appear to exist in a library in Scotland and not, unfortunately, on the internet. She may well have been in the poorhouse that year, since her child was born there a year after that census. Then again, she could have been living with a sibling, her father, or even in the same location she was at in 1861. Let me know if any further info would be of help. There MUST be an 1871 census record for Caroline out there somewhere! ::)
-
If it is true that as you say, there were only 2 William Reids born in 1870 in Neilston, but no way to know if either of them is Caroline's child.
As there are only two, have you considered tracing both of these William's to see where they lead you? If you could find both of their births, marriages and/or deaths, and purchase certificates, it would be interesting to see if they give a father's name. Caroline should be named as the mother on one of them.
Not that it helps you in your quest to find John's father as he and William may have had different fathers. Presumably you have already purchased John's birth certificate and no father is named? Similar with his marriage and death certificates?
Added: I can't see an obvious Caroline Reid in the 1871 Scottish census - but some of the transcriptions leave a lot to be desired so she might be hiding. Have you checked the census on SP - I got only 7 results for Car* Reid with no dates or places specified. That's only one page to purchase.
-
Hi again LadyK,
Unfortunately Caroline may just not be found on 1871. She could have been missed.
Even today certain sections of society may choose to opt out of Census (although I think it's against the law) or have a lifestyle that excludes them (homeless).
Caroline could be on the Census under a different name. Although she never married she could have been using a man's surname :-\. Looking at the date of John's birth, she could have been in a relationship at the time of the Census.
I think trying to find John Reid's death (to see who informant was) especially if he died before Caroline and tracing young William may be useful.
Your earlier thread was an interesting read :D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644369.0
Looby :)
-
Thanks Ruskie, I will work on tracing the possible Williams back and I see what you mean about the one page of "Car" Reids in the 1871 census. I will check those out as well. John's bc says "illegitimate" with no father named. His marriage certif. names Caroline and "John Reid", who was his grandfather. His death certif I have never been able to find. I believe he died of tuberculosis, so he may have been in a facility of some kind at his death. (He lived in Paterson, NJ at that time)
Looby, Caroline could have been using someone's name, I suppose, but when John was born in January of 1872 (9 mos after the census of 1871), she was named as Caroline Reid on his birth record. I will continue to try to locate her father's death record and will follow up on the few clues that I have on William. Yes, the initial thread on this family was truly wonderful, and I am grateful forever to those ladies for the information that I do have! If I cannot place Caroline in 1871, I will start the search for her partner assuming that she was in the Johnstone/Neilston region of Renfrewshire at that time, which is the most likely case. I wonder if there are any records from the mills that employed so much of the regional population? Caroline is listed as mill worker in the 1861 census. On John's birth record she is listed as "Pauper" and "formerly washerwoman".
One more thing: in the margin next to Caroline's death record is written "Clerical error," and then two words that I cannot make out. I'm now wondering if it could be a name she was using that belonged to the boyfriend? I wish I could decipher it, but the closest I can tell, it reads "col-fine Narjle". I could email the document to you if you think you can read it!
Katharine
-
Katherine, if you could post a snip of the indecipherable words, we might be able to help you.
Something else I thought which I suppose may have happened in Scotland as well as England - inmates in workhouses and other institutions were sometimes enumerated under intitals alone. A long slog to find a "CR" but that may be a reason that she can't be found. :-\
-
Well, that's a thought. I can try looking for CR.... Here is the bit of the death record with the "clerical error":
(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrgddbqwfwfkgrwxsbttksgffktg,vi/frqrdgbqxgqtwkrffxrtkwwfdgs/6/518556/12715744/CarolineReidDC1881pc-vi.jpg)
-
Looks like a clerical error in column five to me - is there anything inserted or scored out in column five?
Jen
-
Yes, Jen - column five is the parents' names. Elizabeth is crossed out for her mother's name and Caroline written on top of that. Her mother's name was Caroline Fergusson.
-
I had a feeling that I recognised this :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644369.0
-
Apologies to you LadyK, more than 2yrs on...
I do remember sending the death cert for Caroline Reid but, it never occurred to me at the time that you would need clarification re the note in the margin.
We never did locate Caroline at 1871, nor did we locate her father's death cert.
-
Just a thought,
Have you tried looking for R(ie)d rather than Reid.
Some names with "i" & "e" seem to get turned round at times e.g. Neil/Niel
Annie
ADDED......
For some unknown reason which Monica will verify, there are many missing census records/people in 1871........a mystery ???
-
LadyK, can you confirm that Caroline was unable to write her name on John's birth cert of 1872?
I have obtained the birth cert for William Reid born 22 Jun 1870 in Neilston.( illegitimate)
Registered by Mother: Caroline Reid ( Bleacher).
Signed X her mark.
Child was born at Broadlea Banks, Neilston
I have searched 1871 census for Broadlea Banks and found all occupants.
There is no one resembling Caroline or her son at any property in this street.
-
When I looked back at the old thread re Caroline Reid, I recall that neither myself or Monica could find very much on her mother Caroline Matilda Ferguson.
Both of us assumed that she could be Irish.
I'm certain that her birth was not on Family Search at 2013 but it's there now!
Caroline Matilda Ferguson b 17 Oct 1820 Old Cumnock
Parents Alexander Ferguson and Agnes McKnight.
Her sister Jane Ferguson b 29 Dec 1824.
Married Thomas Ritchie before 1851
The only census I can find
1851:Daleagles, New Cumnock
Thomas Ritchie 26b Leadhills, Lanark. Coal Miner
Jane Ritchie 26 b wife B Old Cumnock
Agnes Fergurson 55 Mother in Law b Straiton,Ayrshire
-
I notice that you say John was born in the Abbey Poorhouse Neilston but his birth seems to be recorded in Abbey, Paisley reg district. The Abbey Poorhouse was located in Paisley ( in Craw Road) and there appear to be records extant for it (copies held at Paisley Library according to the Internet). There appear to be 1881 census lists for the poorhouse but can't see any for 1871. Perhaps Caroline and William were still in the poorhouse in 1871 and the records simply aren't available.
Isobel
-
I wondered if that was the case too Isobel, but the first son William was born in Neilston Jun 1870.
The census of 1871 was taken on 2 Apr 1871.
Caroline's 2nd son was born in Abbey Poorhouse in Jan 1872.
If Caroline was in the Poorhouse between Apr 1871 and Jan 1872, it suggests that she was in there when she became pregnant for the 2nd time?
Unless she entered, left and re entered over an 18 month period
-
Managed to find census records for the Abbey Poorhouse for 1871 and don't see any sign of Caroline, so another dead end I'm afraid.
Isobel
-
Apologies to you LadyK, more than 2yrs on...
I do remember sending the death cert for Caroline Reid but, it never occurred to me at the time that you would need clarification re the note in the margin.
We never did locate Caroline at 1871, nor did we locate her father's death cert.
Hello Anne! Sorry, been away from the computer for a few days. Actually, I didn't notice the note in the margin until recently. I think I had glanced at it and thought it referred to the entry above Caroline. No, still no Caroline in 1871, nor a death for her father John, sadly. I'm not giving up though! ;D
-
When I looked back at the old thread re Caroline Reid, I recall that neither myself or Monica could find very much on her mother Caroline Matilda Ferguson.
Both of us assumed that she could be Irish.
I'm certain that her birth was not on Family Search at 2013 but it's there now!
Caroline Matilda Ferguson b 17 Oct 1820 Old Cumnock
Parents Alexander Ferguson and Agnes McKnight.
Her sister Jane Ferguson b 29 Dec 1824.
Married Thomas Ritchie before 1851
The only census I can find
1851:Daleagles, New Cumnock
Thomas Ritchie 26b Leadhills, Lanark. Coal Miner
Jane Ritchie 26 b wife B Old Cumnock
Agnes Fergurson 55 Mother in Law b Straiton,Ayrshire
Anne, you must have found Caroline's mother's bd earlier, because I have it and her parents' names on my tree! But I did not have the info about Jane's marriage and husband. I have looked for more on Caroline Matilda's parents too, but haven't found anything. You could be right that her mother (McKnight) might be Irish.
-
Just a thought,
Have you tried looking for R(ie)d rather than Reid.
Some names with "i" & "e" seem to get turned round at times e.g. Neil/Niel
Annie
ADDED......
For some unknown reason which Monica will verify, there are many missing census records/people in 1871........a mystery ???
I have not, but that is a thought. I have tried Reed and Read.
-
I notice that you say John was born in the Abbey Poorhouse Neilston but his birth seems to be recorded in Abbey, Paisley reg district. The Abbey Poorhouse was located in Paisley ( in Craw Road) and there appear to be records extant for it (copies held at Paisley Library according to the Internet). There appear to be 1881 census lists for the poorhouse but can't see any for 1871. Perhaps Caroline and William were still in the poorhouse in 1871 and the records simply aren't available.
Isobel
Hmm, okay, I wonder why I thought Neilston? I did find that records are held at Paisley Library and are not available online. Oh, I have first son William as being born Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland on 22 June 1870. (that is from ancestry .com), so maybe that's why I thought John was born there. I do see now that John was born in Paisley in 1872. So where in Neilston would William have been born? Was there a poorhouse or such facility there, or perhaps she gave birth in someone's home.
-
LadyK, can you confirm that Caroline was unable to write her name on John's birth cert of 1872?
I have obtained the birth cert for William Reid born 22 Jun 1870 in Neilston.( illegitimate)
Registered by Mother: Caroline Reid ( Bleacher).
Signed X her mark.
Child was born at Broadlea Banks, Neilston
I have searched 1871 census for Broadlea Banks and found all occupants.
There is no one resembling Caroline or her son at any property in this street.
I just checked, and there was no column or place on the birth record for Caroline to sign or make her mark. What does ( Bleacher) mean on the birth cert? And would Broadlea Banks be the street in Neilston? Perhaps the father's family lived there?
-
Managed to find census records for the Abbey Poorhouse for 1871 and don't see any sign of Caroline, so another dead end I'm afraid.
Isobel
Oh, DARN! Well thank-you so much for looking! At least I can rule out that she was living at Abbey Poorhouse in 1871. Since her first child (1870) was not born there, I'm not surprised that she wasn't there. She probably ended up there somehow to give birth to the second son (1872). She was definitely at # 9 Collier Street in Johnstone, Paisley Abbey, Renf. in 1861. She turns up in Neilston to have her son in 1870. I believe they are only a few miles apart? Then she has John in 1872 in Paisley and dies in 1881 in Neilston.
One funny thing that turned up when I was just playing around with my dna matches. I don't think this is the "answer" I'm searching for, but for a few moments it sure seemed possible! I did a mirror tree with the one person who is a dna match to both me and to my cousin's daughter (who is on my Dad's side/Reid side of the family). The name Bird came up in common. Just for giggles, I plugged in a search for a Bird male born about Caroline's birth year in the Paisley area. One popped up, a man named Charles Micheal Bird, born 1848 (same as Caroline) in Paisley. What caught my eye was that his occupation was listed as "clerk at prison". For a moment I thought well maybe they were referring to the poorhouse, as sometimes the same building would house prisoners, etc. Then I saw that this Charles's father was Prison Governor at Paisley prison, and realized they actually did mean the prison, so I dropped that theory for the present. I suppose Caroline could have been in the Paisley prison, who knows. But that is the kind of info I'll be looking for to identify John Reid's father. A long shot, but fun to try!
-
I can't add anything at the moment to this post BUT it is very spooky reading it as Caroline Reid was my maiden name and I see in your last post that your Caroline was living in Colllier Street, Johnstone, which I also did when I was first married over 100 years later! I also have connections to Neilston as I had Dunlop family living there and my Reid Grandfather ended up being the Headteacher of the Primary there!
-
If there is a record of her poor law application then it may reflect which parishes were involved when it came to paying for her care. They usually refer to changes in chargeability. That may help.
S_L
-
LadyK,
The Poor Law Records are housed at The Heritage Centre at Paisley Central Library.
Library info states that these records are normally filed by surname ( last name)
I presume that the index to files will be digitised ?
It could be worth dropping them an email to check if there is an application existing for Caroline or her sons.
heritage@renfrewshire.gov.uk
If the file exists, I will arrange a trip to Paisley on your behalf and transcribe it.
EDIT:
Staff at library will let me know later today if any file exist
-
I have send a PM to LadyK,
The PR record does exist.
The index also clearly shows that her 1st son William was still living at her admission in 1872.
The index also shows that she was pregnant at the time and son John has been added to the index.
The words Neilston and Dalry are also included.
I knew that she would have been born in Ayrshire!
I will be going to Paisley before Monday of next week to look at
1872
Caroline Reid
Vol 12 sec 16
Record 16004
-
I can't add anything at the moment to this post BUT it is very spooky reading it as Caroline Reid was my maiden name and I see in your last post that your Caroline was living in Colllier Street, Johnstone, which I also did when I was first married over 100 years later! I also have connections to Neilston as I had Dunlop family living there and my Reid Grandfather ended up being the Headteacher of the Primary there!
Oh my goodness, Caroline, that IS strange! Tell me about Collier street... are there buildings there that could have been there in 1861? Caroline lived, I believe at #9, which looks on google earth to be an old building, but perhaps not that old. I wonder if your Reids are related to mine?
-
If there is a record of her poor law application then it may reflect which parishes were involved when it came to paying for her care. They usually refer to changes in chargeability. That may help.
S_L
Ah, good thought still_looking! I wasn't thinking about the payer aspect!
-
Anne, I got your note! OH, I'm so excited!! I can hardly wait to find out all that the record says. How thrilling to find that she was indeed living there at the poorhouse. Must not have been a very nice life for a young mother with babies to care for. I do hope all this will help me locate the scoundrel who fathered these little boys! (if indeed it was the same man!) For all I know, Caroline could have been making a living in the world's oldest profession, in which case it will be all the harder to find him, though I could still possibly find a likely family.... well, these records of Caroline and her children are a MARVELOUS development! I await your report with great eagerness! ;)
-
Also, I have here that Caroline was born in Dalmellington, Ayrshire in 1848, based on the 1851 census. Perhaps you can photograph the page in the records book with your phone?
-
Hi again,
It's hard to say about the building at No 9! The Lodge attached to it appears to have been built in 1912 so it does look like it is older than that. The building has just been refurbished recently (within the last couple of years) and turned into flats. The building on the other side was a Council owned building latterly and, I understand, may have been a Court a long time ago. It has now been refurbished and is now a Dentist's surgery. It all depends also on whether it is the same No 9 as I know streets are very often renumbered as Paisley's streets definitely were in about 1923.
Reid is a relatively common name :(. My Great Great Grandfather was also a John Reid but I'm getting into a muddle with his life before he married my Great Great Grandmother, Jessie McKay. I also think he may have been from Ireland which creates even more problems in trying to trace him :(
Carolineasb
-
LadyK,
Im not sure if I will be able to obtain any copies and doubt very much that I would be allowed to photograph them but, I will ask.
Caroline was admitted to the Poorhouse in 1872 and should therefore be somewhere with her 1st born son the 1871 census.
Today, I spotted something.
The informant to her death was a woman named Rebecca Blair who was the occupier of the house where Caroline died.
This woman had a lodging house in Smith's Land.
She is found at the same address in both 1861 & 1881.
She too appears to be missing at 1871
I don't think her home was enumerated??
-
Rebecca Blair - I think she's living Holehouse, Neilston, Renfrewshire in 71...along with 5 boarders.
Jen
-
Jenny,
I use Ancestry but I cannot locate that census of 1871 for Rebecca Blair
Can you post a list of the occupants please?
-
Hmm, I thought she died at Andrews Land boarding house? That is what I have recorded here. Is that wrong?
-
Caroline's death of Feb 1881 does not give an exact address. It simply says "Neilston"
The informant was Rebecca Blair,Occupier.
The 1881 census was taken just a few weeks later and Rebecca's lodging house shows as "Andrew's Land"
I fully expect that this is where Caroline died but there's always chance that she died elsewhere in Neilston
-
These are the boarders with Rebecca in 1871....
Marion Smith Female 7 1864 Neilston, Renfrewshire
John Keir Male 5 1866 Neilston, Renfrewshire
Catherine Duncan Female 13 1858 Cotton Mill Worker Lochgilphead, Argyllshire
Margaret Dermid Female 1 1870 Pollokshaws, Renfrewshire
Winnow Maillie Female 30 1841 Bleacher Ireland
Jen
-
The PR application does not provide much more info than we already have, and the Records for Abbey Poorhouse don't seem to exist anywhere ?
This is what was gleaned:
Son William was born in Neilston in 1870 and Caroline was in receipt of PR from this parish after his birth.
The PR applications prior to 1898 for Neilston have not survived!
Caroline and her son were living in Johnstone, Renfrewshire when they entered Abbey PH on 24 Oct 1871.
Annotated in Pencil at a later date: "AUNT- Mrs Gemmill"
Her 2nd son John was born in the PH on 29 Jan 1872
All 3 left on 18 May 1872 ( total of 7 months stay)
4 weeks later, 14 Jun 1872 when her PR payment of 2 shillings PW ran out, Caroline and both boys were re admitted to Abbey PH.
She was living in Rankine Street, Johnstone at this time
No further info is held on when she left for the 2nd time.
Caroline died in Neilston in 1881 and we have all the info on her 2nd son
Who was Mrs Gemmill/Gemmel in Johnstone and what happened to her first born son, William?
He was almost 2 yrs old when he entered the PH in Jun 1872.
-
1881. census Industrial School, Albion Street, Paisley, Middle Church, Renfrew.
Wm. Reid, Inmate, Scholar, aged 10 years, M. born Neilston, Renfrew.
Regards,
Jonn.
-
Thank you Jonn,
That looks about right.
NB: Ladyk has found the Gemmill/Gemmell family.
This woman was the sister of Caroline's father
-
Anne, I do have records indicating that Elisabeth Walker was John Reid's mother (and Elizabeth Reid-Gemmell's). William Reid, her husband, died early in 1851. In that year's census, Elisabeth Reid (age 50) is listed as living with children James, Mary and William and some boarders, one of whom is 5 year old Matthew Gemmell! In 1861 she is also living with 2 sons and 15 year old Matthew Gemmell, among some other boarders. I can't think what the connection is, but there must be one.....
So Aunt Elizabeth Reid Gemmell was perhaps living in Rankine Street, Johnstone and Caroline living with her just prior to her admittance to the poorhouse in 1872? Or maybe Auntie Liz was just the person who brought her there to have her child. Hard to tell unless 1871 records magically surface and I haven't been able to pin those down yet!
K
-
1881. census Industrial School, Albion Street, Paisley, Middle Church, Renfrew.
Wm. Reid, Inmate, Scholar, aged 10 years, M. born Neilston, Renfrew.
Regards,
Jonn.
Jonn, thank-you!! This looks as though it could well be William! Oh, I do hope that he made it to adulthood and perhaps had a family. I may still have "cousins" in Scotland after all!
K
-
Wonder if this is the same William Reid in 1914
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVB2-1LJZ
Lots of good info been found btw. :)
Looby :)
-
I can see the full record on Ancestry Looby
I have looked at his marriage to Elizabeth Alexander in Glasgow in Jun 1901.
They are both on the same census at 1901 in Johnstone
The marriage cert says he was the son of William Reid and Elizabeth McVey, both deceased
I can't see anything for this couple. No marriage or children.
Alarm bells! Did they exist?
-
Interesting, Looby! Could be him! And I found this, based on that find:
on ancestry, British Army WWI pension records/ William Reid b. abt 1871 in Milson (mis-transcription for Neilston?), Renfrewshire/ married 22 June 1901 in Glasgow to Elizabeth Alexander/ document year 1914/ Regiment name: Princess Louise's (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders)/ Army Reserve (special reservists) Attestation/ children: William, Kenneth, John, James & Elizabeth.
Is this the same William that says his parents were William Reid and Elizabeth McVey?
K.
-
I can see the full record on Ancestry Looby
I have looked at his marriage to Elizabeth Alexander in Glasgow in Jun 1901.
They are both on the same census at 1901 in Johnstone
The marriage cert says he was the son of William Reid and Elizabeth McVey, both deceased
I can't see anything for this couple. No marriage or children.
Alarm bells! Did they exist?
Interesting ::) Where would he have got Mother's name from?
Have seen many illegitimate children give a fictitious father's name or try and pass parents off as married but never seen one who invented mother's name.
Looby
-
Looby,
My husband's g grandmother invented a mother's name on her marriage to hide her illegitimacy.
Father's name provided equalled her grandfather's name but the mother's name was entirely made up.
Her mother was unmarried when she was born and had exactly the same name as herself!
-
1901: at Johnstone/Elderslie
Kennedy Leggat 27
Jessie Leggat 27
Nelly Leggat 9
Kennedy Leggat 6
Lizzie Alexander 29 b Glasgow
William Reid 29 Boarder b Neilston Occ Wood Turner's labourer
-
1901: at Johnstone/Elderslie
Kennedy Leggat 27
Jessie Leggat 27
Nelly Leggat 9
Kennedy Leggat 6
Lizzie Alexander 29 b Glasgow
William Reid 29 Boarder b Neilston Occ Wood Turner's labourer
Well that looks like the William who enlisted. Quite definite about Neilston as Place of birth. Wonder if there were 2 boys of same name born in Neilston at that period.
-
Yes that is the same man.
I took the marriage date from his service record and obtained the cert.
1891 there is a possible although the POB says Johnstone.
This man was a tinsmith.
At his 1901 marriage William Reid was a wood sawyer but, he was a furnaceman when he enlisted at 1914
Children
William 1902 Paisley
Kenneth 1904 Paisley
John b 1910 Paisley
James b 1912 Paisley
Elizabeth b 1914 Glasgow
-
The marriage cert says he was the son of William Reid and Elizabeth McVey, both deceased
I can't see anything for this couple. No marriage or children.
Alarm bells! Did they exist?
I have been dipping in and out of this thread and though I don't have anything constructive to add, I just wanted to suggest something (which is likely to already have been considered) ... McVey sounds like an Irish surname so I am wondering if events may have occurred in Ireland? :-\
Apologies if I have missed something or gone off on the wrong tangent.
-
Yes, Anne, it does look like it is William who was the boarder at the same house as his future wife! What is a furnace man anyway? Would that be in the iron works? So apparently William manufactured a set of parents and did marry and had children! Whilst his younger brother John emigrated to the U.S. at the age of 15. I wonder if they were able to keep in touch at all? I also wonder if there are living descendants of William in Scotland. Something that will be fun for me to research! At any rate, Caroline was in Johnstone in 1871, and that will be the census year that I use to search for a father using dna matching. By the way, Rankine street is parallel and 2 blocks away from Collier street, when Caroline was boarded in the 1861 census as mill worker. So she didn't go far, once in Johnstone. Why William was born in Neilston, I can't guess.
Also, I did get my Dad's (Reid) dna results back yesterday, and he has 109 pages of matches while mine only came back with 88 pages! A good thing, all the more matches that possibly hold the answer to the mystery man! Someone among all those dna matches MUST be from his grandfather's (John Reid's) branch! Perhaps one of them has the mystery man or his parents or siblings on their tree. That is my hope! ::)
K
-
Was just wondering if anyone has checked whether the records of the Industrial School in Albion Street still exist? Maybe more info in those if they do exist?
-
I'm pretty rubbish at Maths so can someone please confirm this calculation?
20 Oct 1914
States he is 43yrs and 120 days
1914- 43= 20 Oct 1871
deduct another 120 days
to start of Oct = 19 days
Sep = 30
Aug = 31
Jul = 31
Jun = 9
Total 120
Date 22 Jun 1871
The missing William was born 22 Jun 1870
The 1901 marriage for William Reid and Elizabeth Alexander took place 22 Jun 1901
Therefore it seems that whoever he was, he married on his birthday?
His age says 27yrs but the 1901 census just prior to this. says 29yrs
-
I note that in his distinguishing marks it appears to read "Tattoos WR right forearm odd marks left forearm and hand "JR"
-
It seems that years of birth were so often wrong, esp in census records. The fact that his age comes back to 22 June indicates to me that this is Caroline's William Reid. I found another woman on ancestry who has William and his wife and children on her tree, but so many of her associations are incorrect, that I'm pretty sure she is combining my William Reid's identity with another one. However, some of her William's children's names are the same, and she has photos of some of them. I have messaged her to clarify what she can prove and what is only supposition on her part to try to determine if these photos are Caroline's William Reid's children. Not holding my breath.
-
I note that in his distinguishing marks it appears to read "Tattoos WR right forearm odd marks left forearm and hand "JR"
"JR" were his grandfather's and brother's initials. Seems kind of odd to have those initials tattooed, but who knows.
-
I am going to the GRO tomorrow and will look for :
The death of Caroline's father John Reid
Will also search for the death of William Reid who married Elizabeth Alexander in 1901 to see if the parent details on this differ from those listed his marriage.
With any luck, William was Caroline' son and whoever registered his death would have known this
-
Wonderful, Anne! I did communicate with the woman on ancestry who has William Reid and Elizabeth Alexander as her ancestors. According to her figuring, this William's son John is her grandfather. I told her of my current theory that William who married Eliz Alexander might be the child of Caroline Reid. She replied that it would make sense, since she has searched for his parents, William Reid and Eliz McVay or McKay, and cannot find hide nor hair of them. IF this does turn out to be Caroline's William it will be extra fun because this woman has a photo of Elizabeth Alexander as an elderly woman, and of several of their children, including her grandfather. She too is awaiting any further news that might come to light about William, so I will report anything found on your expedition! Unfortunately, this woman has not had her dna done, so I can't tell if we are dna cousins or not, but if her William Reid is Caroline's son, that would make us first cousins 3x removed... I think, I have to look at that to confirm. ??? Fingers crossed that William turns out to be the son of Caroline Reid!!
-
I have located the death of Caroline's father.
He died in 1865 in Bathgate which means that his 2nd wife Hannah Geddes was a widow when she died in 1870.
( Her DC says "Married to John Reid rather than"Widow of John Reid")
I also located the 1938 death of the man named William Reid.
This is the man from the WW1 papers which show that his DOB worked out to 22 Jun 1871.
This William Reid married Elizabeth Alexander in 1901 stating parents as:
William Reid and Elizabeth McVey
His son William, was the informant to his 1938 death.
No father was named on the DC
Mother: CAROLINE REID ( Bleacher)
It would seem that the "parents" named William Reid and Elizabeth McVey on his marriage... were a fabrication after all
-
I have located the death of Caroline's father.
He died in 1865 in Bathgate which means that his 2nd wife Hannah Geddes was a widow when she died in 1870.
( Her DC says "Married to John Reid rather than"Widow of John Reid")
I also located the 1938 death of the man named William Reid.
This is the man from the WW1 papers which show that his DOB worked out to 22 Jun 1871.
This William Reid married Elizabeth Alexander in 1901 stating parents as:
William Reid and Elizabeth McVey
His son William, was the informant to his 1938 death.
No father was named on the DC
Mother: CAROLINE REID ( Bleacher)
It would seem that the "parents" named William Reid and Elizabeth McVey on his marriage... were a fabrication after all
-
Anne - WAHOO!! I had a good feeling, once it came to light that he married on his birthday, that this would be Caroline's William, but YOU have been so wonderfully kind to take the time and effort to PROVE it! Interesting to learn that John Reid (Caroline's father) died so early on. For some reason I had 1871, but I see that I didn't mark where that date came from, at least not on my family tree, it could be in notes somewhere. At any rate, now I know, again with many thanks to you, when he died and where. (I had Armadale, which I think is close by Bathgate.) Caroline was only a teenager at the time, and as Hannah Geddes was her stepmother, perhaps that meant she had few people to turn to in times of need. Apparently her aunt Elizabeth Gemmell, was who she turned to. Now her sad story is as complete as the passing of time will allow. Her whereabouts from the birth of her son to her death remains a mystery, but as there were no census in that period, I can just assume that she remained in the area where she had lived and died. Always so many more questions than we can answer, but I thank you again for all your dedication and help. Anne, if you'd like a free place to stay on Cape Cod (east coast USA) my home is always open for you! ;) I will let my new-found cousin (William's great-granddaughter) know of the latest developments. Now I am ready to begin my dna data analysis to see if I can find out the father of John! Wish me luck! ;D
-
I thought I would update anyone who's interested on my search for my gr-gr-grandfather's identity using dna analysis. I have made some progress!
I had my Dad's Y-dna done to 37 markers. Unfortunately, it wasn't as conclusive as I'd hoped. Apparently, at 37 markers you CAN get people who match to a significant level, but are NOT, in fact, related. So, I got a list of people who match my Dad's Y-dna and there was quite a range of surnames, though most seem to be of Irish/Scottish origin. However, I do now have a decent clue as to what my mystery man's surname may have been.
There were a total of 59 dna matches to my Dad at 37 markers. Out of that 59 there were 13 whose names were McLaughlin or a derivative thereof. The next most frequently occurring names were Donnelly and Dougherty, each with 4 matches. No other name had more than 2 occurrences among the matches on the list.
So, it is logical to presume that McLaughlin MAY be the surname of my gr-gr-grandfather. I also noted that most of the McLaughlins on this list indicated that their furthest back known ancestor was from Ireland, usually Tyrone or Donegal. So I may be more Irish than I thought I was!
I have contacted all of the McLaughlins on the matches list and some have responded. However, none could offer me a clue that would help me discover my mystery man's identity. None had ancestors in the time/place configuration that I am looking for.
So, I coughed up another $99 to have a further SNP panel done. This was the test recommended to me by the owner of the Dougherty family dna project (there are various surname projects associated with FTDNA which analyze dna data of folks with that surname). I am not yet well enough educated on the details of dna analysis to be specific about this test, but the gentleman told me that it will at least tell me if my Dad has the dna segment found in most Doughertys or McLaughlins. It will also show me which of the names on his match list are closest genetically and give me a better indication of how far back a common ancestor might be.
Now that I'm waiting for those results to come in, I think I will contact the Dougherty gentleman again and ask what specifically I should be on the lookout for when the results come in. If I do not end up with a more definitive possibility for a surname, I may have to think about extending the markers tested to the next level.... yes, another $99.
In the meantime, I have searched the census records for McLaughlin men who lived in the area where my gr-gr-grandmother Caroline was in 1871 who were of an age to have potentially produced a child. From this data, I have compiled a list of "suspects" - men who could be the culprit, based on a number of factors that would have potentially put them in contact with Caroline.
I have deduced that Caroline MAY have been "plying her trade" when she became pregnant with her sons. This is based on the fact that she had two children out of wedlock within 2 years, and one interesting fact gleaned from her death record. It lists Caroline's occupation as "pauper, formerly washerwoman". In all previous records of Caroline, she was listed as either mill worker or bleacher (thread bleacher). I have also been perusing the city directories of these years, and found that they had "female houses of refuge", which were apparently efforts to get "fallen women" off the streets and into honest work. To this end, most of them ran laundries out of these homes for women. I wonder if that is what she was doing prior to her death, thereby being listed as washerwoman. Just speculation, but interesting.
At any rate, I will update again when I get the newest dna results from FTDNA. Maybe I can find this Mr. McLaughlin, or whoever he was!
p.s. - Grandmother Caroline, sorry if I'm wrong about my theory. No offense intended.
-
I'm very impressed that you've had some success with this, as I thought DNA would be a long shot in this instance. Thank you for the update.
-
I have deduced that Caroline MAY have been "plying her trade" when she became pregnant with her sons. This is based on the fact that she had two children out of wedlock within 2 years, and one interesting fact gleaned from her death record. It lists Caroline's occupation as "pauper, formerly washerwoman". In all previous records of Caroline, she was listed as either mill worker or bleacher (thread bleacher).
p.s. - Grandmother Caroline, sorry if I'm wrong about my theory. No offense intended.
If Caroline was in this line of business, she may have been arrested for prostitution or other petty crimes, Have you looked for her in the local newspapers?
-
No, I have not looked in the newspapers. She was dirt poor, do you think they bothered to list the names of these poor folks who got arrested for things that were so common? Maybe so, I don't know. I have checked as far as I am able with prison records, since I cannot find her at all in the 1871 census. That census was taken the same month she would have become pregnant with her second son, so it would be so helpful to know her whereabouts at that time, but alas, many efforts have been made and she has not been found. I have wondered if she could have been incarcerated at the time of the 1871 census, but she had a one-year-old son then, so I don't know what would have happened to him. Thanks for the suggestion, I will see what I can find regarding newspapers in Paisley/Neilston!
K
-
Hi LadyK,
I remember this.
I am still of the opinion that wherever Caroline and her son were at 1871, the address was possibly not enumerated.
If my memory serves me right, the PR application from Paisley library showed that she entered the poorhouse after census night 1871.
Wishing you luck with your DNA tests.
Did you ever make contact with the family of Caroline's other son William?
-
Hi Anne, you're probably right. Yes, she was first admitted in October of 1871, six months after the census. The second time she was admitted, in May of 1872, they listed Rankin Street, Johnstone as her place of residence. There happens to be a concentration of McLaughlins living in Rankin street in the 1871 census! Speculation, but it might fit.
Oh yes, Lynn and I are in touch. She is my third cousin, gr-granddaughter of William Reid, Caroline's older son. She was happy to know the truth about William, since she had been looking for the couple he listed on his marriage record as his parents and coming up with nothing! Her family moved from Scotland to England before she was born, and she lives in Corby, Northamptonshire. We email back and forth whenever we have a question or a discovery, and I'm keeping her in the loop regarding the dna, though it is true that William may well have a different father than John.
I think it is telling that William named his son John, who was Lynn's grandfather, and John named my grandfather William! If they were still in touch, we may never know, but at least they were in one another's thoughts after they were separated by an ocean. :)
K