RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: abstraction on Tuesday 06 October 15 10:25 BST (UK)
-
George Cannon, b. circ 1810, moved to Dunedin from Tasmania sometime between 1863 and 1865. He was still in Dunedin in 1881.
My grandmother told me that he fought in the Maori wars - and that he nearly had his thumb cut off in the fighting. That's all I know.
Is there some way to look up his military records?
-
Could try this
http://archives.govt.nz/research/guides/war#nine
Also
http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/Heritage/WarsAndConflicts/NewZealandWars/NewZealandWars.pdf
-
Hello,
A George Cannon to be found on the Dunedin Electoral Rolls in 1893......
http://marvin.otago.ac.nz/oni/details.php?recid=372556.16
Minniehaha.
-
The same George Cannon???
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18930110.2.43&srpos=14&e=--1893-----10--11----2george+cannon--
[Letter to the editor concerning this man]
Minniehaha.
-
I'm no expert on the NZ Wars but as a born and bred Dunedinite I believe the only conflict in the South Island was that at Tuamarina in 1843 where the settlers came off decidedly second best. The wars of the 1860's and 1870's were a northern affair. At that time the NZ Govt formed militias at larger settlements and George might well have belonged to that at Dunedin. From 1863 the Otago area was the scene of a major gold rush and Dunedin became the most prominent and richest city in NZ. Their minds were on anything but fighting maori.
Alan
-
This site is amazing - very helpful replies, thank you all.
Suzy W = It appears I would have to be in NZ to check out the records. Thank you.
minniehaha = Yes, these are both him. The newspaper article actually confirms what I thought my grandmother told me in 1976 - that the missionary daughter Maud was the eldest. Her descendants have disputed this! Thanks. Every one of my grandmother's anecdotal stories has thus far been confirmed - except his battle in the maori wars.
alamar = He definitely came to Otago from Tasmania to search for gold, having already done so in Bendigo, Victoria twice. But narrowing down when and where he was pulled into militia is the tricky bit.
-
The point of my comments was that if he was wounded in the Maori Wars then he was a long way north of Dunedin. If he never left the South then he never fought in the Maori Wars and grandmother's story cannot true.
Alan
-
Thanks Alan - I didn't miss your point. I know he hadn't arrived in Dunedin prior to 1863 and had definitely arrived by 1865, so I deduced from your post he must have been involved in the fighting in the north. However, it's likely his family maintained their address in Dunedin.
So these records of war service are not online, apart from decorated and those from Christchurch that Suzy shared?
-
Hi Abstraction,
A search of Archives New Zealand's search portal, Archway, does not bring up any obvious reference for your man. If he had fought in the Maori Wars and applied for the New Zealand Medal his claim would appear on Archway as I have seen quite a number of these.
It is possible that he fought but perhaps under another name, but in any case he didn't apply for a medal under his own name.
Spades
-
Another one to try
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/NZ_Wars_1860s-1870s_Guide.pdf
-
The museum in Auckland is officially The Auckland War Memorial Museum. They have a large number of war exhibits and information though I suspect it probably starts with WW1. I don't live in Auckland and haven't been there for many years. The people to contact seem to be the Armoury Info Centre at
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/collections-research/library-info-centres/information-centres/armoury-information-centre
There might well be a historical group they are aware of who deal with The NZ Wars. Give them a try, you never know.
Alan
-
Here is a comprehensive list of applicants for the New Zealand War Medal.
No mention of him that I can see.
PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE ISSUE OF THE NEW ZEALAND WAR MEDAL.
Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1871 Session I, G-01
http://atojs.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/atojs?a=d&d=AJHR1871-I.2.2.4.1
Spades
-
Thank you spades for going to the trouble of finding this excellent document. That is so kind of you!
It's clear this medal is intended to cover "all cases where the claimants have been actually under fire..." So it is possible, but very unlikely that he really fought and was wounded if he is not in this list. And there is no George Cannon there.
But...
There is a Charles Cannon. In the 3rd Waikato regiment, 1861-1866.
The thing is, I've recently discovered that George was born as Charles Cannon, and changed his name after a first spell in prison, prior to being transported for a second crime. My grandmother - who knew George's wife, her grandmother - told me his name was Charles. I thought she had made a mistake! (There is no birth record for a George Cannon in Great Berkhamstead, but there is a birth of Charles Cannon, correct birth year and same father's and exact siblings names as on George's convict records. Not 100% clear, but very convincing.)
Of course this Charles Cannon in the militia is not necessarily Charles/George Cannon. Why would he change his name back to Charles just for his military service? There is a military record for this Charles Cannon on ancestry.com but I'm not a member. Is there another way to access it?
-
I found in an excerpt from 'Australians in the Waikato War, 1863-1864' (Leonard L Barton 1979) - 1094 Charles Cannon 3 Sep 1863 Sandhurst.
George was married in Launceston, Tas Jul 1863. My grandmother said he went to Bendigo (Sandhurst) twice looking for gold.
Potential motive for joining? They were offering land for those who served. It was potentially an opportunity to get passage to NZ to eventually reach Otago as well.
Possible motive for changing his name back for military service? George Cannon had been a convict - so he may have changed his name to avoid any problems associated with his criminal record.
-
Hi Abstraction,
Given the coincidence of dates and the fact that he was born as Charles CANNON, I think it's very likely to be your man.
Though again, I can't see a medal application file for that name on Archway.
Spades
-
Though again, I can't see a medal application file for that name on Archway.
Oh well, thank you for checking.
I noticed there is a cd-rom here in an Australian library:
"Entries in the CD-ROM Nominal and descriptive rolls of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Waikato regiments, 1863-1867 show name, number, date and place of enlistment, place of birth, occupation, age, height and ship to New Zealand and some entries show marital status and discharge date."
I'll see if i can get hold of that.
I saw through your excellent resources that many of this regiment were granted land that turned out to be unfit for farming. At any rate the Cannons had moved to Dunedin by 1865 - at least his wife and first daughter (whose birth record appears nowhere in aust or nz). They ran a boarding house for medical students in Dunedin according to my grandmother. Again, I only suspect but have no evidence that the gold in Otago was part of what drew him down there.
-
I noticed there is a cd-rom here in an Australian library:
"Nominal and descriptive rolls of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Waikato regiments, 1863-1867
Hello...
These are the only CANNON entries on said CD...
1st Waikato Militia
CANNON, Charles, No 1094, enlisted 3 Sep 1863, Sandhurst, born Burgah, Suffolk, England,
labourer, 41 years, 5ft 8in tall, Caduceus, married, discharged by sub 20 May 1865.
CANNON, William, No 130, enlisted 27 Aug 1863, Melbourne, born Fulham, Middlesex,
England, labourer, 38 years, 5ft 8in tall, Star of India, single.
----
Searching also brings up the following entry for Abraham ABRAHAMS...
ABRAHAMS, Abraham, No 1335, enlisted 20 May 1865, Tauranga, born Stafford, England,
apothecary, 33 years, 5ft 9in tall, sub for 1094 C Cannonn. ?from 2 WR
I'm not sure if the mention of "1094 C.Cannonn" is related to your man or if it's just a reproduction error.
Regards
Beg
-
1st Waikato Militia
CANNON, Charles, No 1094, enlisted 3 Sep 1863, Sandhurst, born Burgah, Suffolk, England,
labourer, 41 years, 5ft 8in tall, Caduceus, married, discharged by sub 20 May 1865.
Searching also brings up the following entry for Abraham ABRAHAMS...
ABRAHAMS, Abraham, No 1335, enlisted 20 May 1865, Tauranga, born Stafford, England,
apothecary, 33 years, 5ft 9in tall, sub for 1094 C Cannonn. ?from 2 WR
I'm not sure if the mention of "1094 C.Cannonn" is related to your man or if it's just a reproduction error.
Thank you for saving me a lot of running around. It sounds as though Abrahams was enlisted to replace Cannon. Just one discrepancy - the Charles Cannon records I've seen have him in the 3rd Waikato regiment.
Is the ship's name the ship they travelled to Australia on or to NZ? I know the Caduceus sailed to melbourne and on to NZ.
Overall... this doesn't look like him. Age - he was always lying about his age, so no surprise there.
But he wasn't born in Suffolk. It's not something you would bother lying about. And the height is different from his convict record. I think this is a no.
Oddly - the discharge day is the precise day my Charles/George Cannon's daughter was born. Just coincidence. You can't organise a discharge in a day - even then I imagine.
Well that's a bit of a dead end. If he was really injured in the maori wars as my grandmother told me, he should have been awarded the NZ war medal. It leaves me with a puzzle - why the story if it didn't happen?
-
He may well have been injured but how he was injured might be the question,
Cheers Janette
-
Except that I can find no record of:
* Any Cannons born or married in Burgh, Suffolk between 1810 and 1840.
* No record of Charles Cannon born anywhere in Suffolk between 1810 and 1840
I have only used the family search index, and it is prior to birth registration - but I'd like to eliminate this guy. My grandther's info - from George's wife - has usually proven accurate. I still expect this is a different man.
-
In 'Papers Relative to the Issue of the New Zealand War Medal,' Wellington 1871, a Charles Cannon is listed as a private within the 3rd Waikato Militia.
The Charles Cannon we potentially eliminated was part of the 1st Waikato Militia.
Is there any way to find more details or records about the Charles Cannon in the 3rd Waikato Militia? Perhaps they transferred the same person. Perhaps it's a different person. It's been a few years and more records seem to go online all the time.
1865 seems a long time ago. But... My grandmother knew Charles/George Cannon's wife, who was her own grandmother and was alive until my grandmother was in her mid-twenties. Charles's daughter, who grew up with him, was her own mother, alive until my grandmother was in her mid-forties.
So my grandmother told me he was in the Maori wars, had his thumb nearly hacked off, and so far she's proven accurate on almost everything she told me in the 1970s.
-
Welcome back, Abstraction ;)
He is listed in this database, and his record confirms that he served in both the 1st and 3rd Waikato Regiment:
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/armedconstab/armedconstabulary.html
Spades
-
One more snippet of data.
I have just found Charles CANNON's name in a non-public transcribed passenger list of the Caduceus which was chartered by the New Zealand Government to bring new recruits who attested in Melbourne for the militia across to New Zealand.
He placed an 'x' against in his name in the list, indicating that he was illiterate.
Spades
-
To provide background and context to Charles CANNON's life, the book Blood Brothers: The ANZAC Genesis provides a detailed and very readable account of the New Zealand Government's efforts to recruit men as Military Settlers in the 1860's. Excellent read, available in libraries, and also appears to be available for download here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317101526_Blood_Brothers_The_Anzac_Genesis
You might also find this thesis helpful, as it discusses the experiences of military veterans-turned-settlers in New Zealand during this period.
Soldiers & Colonists. Imperial Soldiers as Settlers in Nineteenth-Century New Zealand.
http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/6740/thesis_access.pdf
This website has some good current research into the same topic.
Soldiers of Empire. Garrison & Empire in the 19th Century.
http://www.soldiersofempire.nz/
Spades
-
You're really wonderful - so much help so quickly. Great historical resources too.
There is much to commend this as the correct Charles, and some to make it almost unlikely.
He leaves the Militia on 20 May 1865. That's the precise day his daughter was born in Dunedin. There was no other family around, he had another daughter at home to look after. He reverted to his married name George if it was him, or it was just a coincidence.
Yes, he was or both were illiterate. I think I have his mark elsewhere - I'll have to dig it out.
I would like to find Charles and George around at the same time, that will close this. Are there searchable census records for New Zealand?
-
No, unfortunately.
Did you note the correct place of birth on the militia database?
Spades
-
No, it's neither the correct place or date of birth. Normally that's sufficient to sink the enquiry, and would be for any of my other searches - and why I left it for the last few years. But I am unable to find any Charles Cannon born in that town close to that time. We do have a good case he changed his name from his birth name to George to avoid trouble at Old Bailey because of previous charges, and he used to frequently change his age on different documents. He had all the right motives to join the militia - he went to Sandhurst for gold twice from Tasmania (grandmother told me, shipping matches) - and Otago was also known for gold. Plus land grants were offered. He was newly married just before he signed up (if it's him.) My theory is he may have changed identity to avoid questions about his convict background.
I just can't piece together his involvement in Maori wars - and this is the only Cannon I can find and other details matching so closely and no other explanation.
"1st Waikato Militia
CANNON, Charles, No 1094, enlisted 3 Sep 1863, Sandhurst, born Burgah, Suffolk, England,
labourer, 41 years, 5ft 8in tall, Caduceus, married, discharged by sub 20 May 1865.
ABRAHAMS, Abraham, No 1335, enlisted 20 May 1865, Tauranga, born Stafford, England,
apothecary, 33 years, 5ft 9in tall, sub for 1094 C Cannonn. ?from 2 WR "
I just figured this out: Charles Cannon left on 20 May 1865, and Abrahams was a substitute because he left abruptly. Why would he want to leave abruptly?
Gertrude Lily Cannon, born 20 May 1865, Dunedin.
He may have been a ruffian but his two daughters were brought up like ladies - educated, played piano, spoke Latin - one became a missionary and author.
-
Here we go, thanks to the document you shared - a potential motive for lying about his age and changing his name:
"The New Zealand Gazette published the conditions of recruitment in August 1863.
Recruits were required to be younger than forty years of age, and be able to prove they
were of good character, health, and general fitness. For three years ‘good’ service a man
would be eligible for a town allotment in a new settlement as well as a farm section, sized
according to rank. Field officers would receive 400 acres, captains 300 acres, surgeons 250
acres, subalterns 200 acres, sergeants 80 acres, corporals 60 acres, and privates 50 acres.
Each recruit would receive wages, rations, and allowances for up to twelve months after
taking possession of his land, after which they would only be received during training or
‘actual service’. Those unable or unwilling to fulfill the conditions were able to replace
themselves under approval from the government." (p36. 2017 McLellan, John M, SOLDIERS & COLONISTS - Imperial Soldiers as Settlers in Nineteenth-Century New Zealand)
He was too old, and had been a convict - he needed a different identity.
The 'substitution' in my previous post meant he replaced himself to get out - post war injury and specifically linked to impending birth of his daughter.
It was clear by the time he left that the land settlements were a disaster. He may have sent pregnant wife ahead to Dunedin and searched for a replacement so he could support them.
I'm not at all convinced - just exploring the idea.
Are there shipping records to find the timing of his wife's arrival in Dunedin - or wherever she first arrived in NZ? Post office directories? It would also solve a puzzle about whether she had a daughter already - there is no birth record found for older daughter Maud anywhere.
-
Hi Abstraction,
I'm going to move your topic back to the main NZ Board where you are more likely to receive information.
To help those reading this, could you post again what information you know about his wife, likely date of arrival in New Zealand, etc.
Spades
-
I can start a new post on that topic perhaps. People don't have to wade through so much.
-
Maud travelled from NZ to Victoria on the Tekapo
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18920621.2.8
Her arrival into Victoria in June 1892 gives her age as 31.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSXD-KQJD
Debra :)
-
Oh goodness Debra. Every genealogy of her in the world except mine has her listed as born in about 1867! I hypothesised 1863. That's filled in a gap and opened a few potential doors.
-
No, don't start a new topic, it's always best to keep the subject together in one place.
And congratulations, Dundee has found her for you! 8) :)
Spades
-
I need some help with shipping - the arrival in NZ for the following people between July 1863 and May 1865:
George Cannon, b.c.1811 Great Berkhamstead, Hertfordshire, England.
Catherine Cannon, nee Jordan, b. 1837 White Hills Tasmania.
married 5 Jul 1863. Launceston Tasmania.
Maud Marie Cannon, b.c.1861-1863 Tasmania no birth record.
In Dunedin by 1865 - birth of Gertrude Lillie Cannon 20 May 1865, Dunedin.
The complicating factor (see posts above) is that George's wife and daughter said he was in the Maori wars. He appears to have been born Charles, changed his name when arrested because of previous trouble. I can't find a George Cannon in militia, but there is a Charles Cannon. He may have reverted to Charles and lied about his age to be able to join the Waikato Militia. I assume they arrived on north island. If it is him, Charles Cannon signed up 3 Sep 1863 from Sandhurst, Vic (George occasionally travelled to Sandhurst), his unit was in NZ by 1863 and got himself discharged by exchange on 20 May 1865 the day his daughter was born. Yes, complicated. If this was him I assume his wife may have been shipped over with him or on a different ship.
1. If it was Charles Cannon, he sailed on the Caduceus, departing 10th and arriving on 25th Sep 1863. A ship carrying 40th Regiment had wives and children, but no suggestion they were aboard Caduceus. One of the volunteers was hauled before courts for attempting to leave without providing for his wife. Colonel Pitt organised for volunteers to remit funds.
2. If not aboard, it is highly likely Catherine Cannon sailed from Launceston - although potentially via Melbourne. I know she had at least one brother, Robert Jordan, in Dunedin. I don't know when he arrived.
Delightful piece of colour on the sailing. "we were uncommon spry for grub."
THE VICTORIAN CONTINGENT ON
BOARD THE CADUCEUS.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE ARGUS.
Sir,-Feeling that many of my comrades'
friends will be anxious to hear how we get
on " down the bay," I beg to offer you a little
narrative of our doings since our departure
from Queen's Wharf, on Friday morning. I
pass over the rather monotonous trip down
the river, the beauties of which are, I con-
fess, difficult of discovery, and beg your
readers to imagine us still on board the tug,
and alongside the good ship Caduceus; the
party being told off in squads of twenty men.
each squad in charge of a non commissioned
officer, assisted by two orderly men, whose
duties are to draw rations, blankets, &c, for
the ten men of their mess. The officer in
command of the detachment places himself on
the gangway, and having passed the volun-
teers on board in the order of their squads,
proceeds to the issue of necessaries-i.e., a
pannikin, knife, fork, spoon, plate, and
blankets ; and we are sent below to find our
bunks-in our search for which we were
greatly aided by the precautions taken
to mark each ten beds with the number
of the mess and squad to which they were
appropriated. By these arrangements, we had
all shaken into our place by eleven a.m.,
when, as our orderly, an old tar, said, we
were "uncommon spry for grub." Soon after
Colonel Pitt came off with the second draft,
and then came dinner.
Plenty of good humour went to make up
for a scarcity of salt; but even this want
was quickly removed by the efforts of the
orderly officer, who silenced our grumbles as
much by his soldierly bonhommie as by his
promptitude in supplying our necessities.
After dinner most of us set to scrawling our
letters; some made impromptu draught-boards,
with chalked squares and buttons for men;
some smoked and yarned; while others, of
a Tapleyan turn, made up the audience of a
flute-player. Then we had the excitement
of the arrival of other additions to our num-
ber. Then supper, at which the inspecting
officer met one jolly fellow, who said he had
no complaints ; but that he "expected, when
he signed his attestation, that he would have
had 'cream cheese, or at least marmalade,
supplied him." To-morrow I commence
operations, and hope to give as much satis-
faction as any of the staff. " ' ,
Your obedient servant, '
THE BARBER'S MATE.
Ship Caduceus, Sept. 5.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) Tuesday 8 September 1863 p 5 Article
-
Outbound records Australia to NZ are fairly patchy, inbound to NZ are all indexed and digitised on Familysearch.
Some outwards from Tas have been indexed which you have probably already seen:
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
Enter the name then choose 'departures' as your record type.
Victoria
https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/passenger-records-and-immigration/outwards-passenger-lists
Inbound to NZ
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1609792
I did have a good look around but didn't see anything promising. The newspapers also often list passengers.
I thought that Maud most likely had a good education and did find this article about her winning two prizes (longhand writing and writing from dictation) at the Phonetic School in Dunedin in 1872.
The competition for this prize was very keen, and three or four had to try over again. The prize was won by a little girl named Maud M. Cannon, who deserves great credit, having written the exercise, which was chosen by a person present at random, without a single mistake.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18721214.2.19.5
It is highly unlikely she was 4 years old!!
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 12 Sep 1894
Event Place (Original): Chungking, China
Francis John DYMOND
Age: 28
Marital Status: Single
Birth Year (Estimated): 1866
Father's Name: John DYMOND
Maud Marie CANNON
Age: 26
Marital Status: Single
Birth Year (Estimated): 1868
Father's Name: George CANNON
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XLGQ-LD2
Perhaps she started to fib about her age because she was older than her husband.
Debra :)
-
We do have some Rootschatters who live in Tasmania and can sometimes do lookups in the church records for baptisms so perhaps you can post a request on the Australia board. As you don't know for certain whose daughter she was or when Catherine went to NZ you would be looking for any Maud Marie up to 1865, probably in Launceston.
Debra :)
-
Thanks again - very helpful. I've posted in the Australian site.