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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: briann1 on Wednesday 07 October 15 21:54 BST (UK)
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Does any one have any information of the following gentleman.
Merchant Seaman Ticket No. 5368
James Drummond
Born: Falkirk
County of Stirling 15th October 1789
Capacity: Seaman
Height 5ft 6
Hair Dark Grey
Complexion Dark
Eyes Grey
Marks Scar on Forehead
First went to sea as Apprentice in the year 1803
Served in the Royal Navy 18 months
When unemployed resides at Sunderland
Can write Yes
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Can you tell us what information you are looking for and what, if any, other information you already hold about him?
He seems to be in Sunderland with wife Mary in 1861 and 1871 censuses, for example.
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The James Drummond with wife Mary living in Sunderland are my g/g/g/grandparents They were married in Whitby N/Yorkshire 1812 moved to Sunderland around 1825.James was a seaman but all I know of his birth is that he was born in Scotland 1788c. I am trying to pinpoint where he was born and who his parents were as there were quite a few James Drummond's born in Scotland between 1787-1790. This ticket is the best link to my family I have come across as it mentions he resides in Sunderland when not at sea, I am not sure what year this ticket was dated.
On his children's marriage certificates they state father "seaman".On the 1851 census his wife Mary is living at Springarden Lane Sunderland with her grandson Joseph her husband is supposed to be a "Gardener" but I am convinced that is incorrect.
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Hi all I have found an old parish record with a birth for James Drummond in Falkirk 15/10/1787 father James mother Janet Robertson day and month match although the actual year is 2 years out.Can anyone add any information about this family
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I am still trying to find any information on above issue.
Is the James Drummond above from Falkirk the one who married Mary Husband in Whitby 1812? and then lived and died in Sunderland?
Any information would be great even if it rules out a link
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Hi
I can see there is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to the marriage of James Drummond and Mary Husband being correct without anything being totally conclusive. Here are just one or two thoughts.
I note the marriage was by licence. There also seem to be baptisms in Whitby at the same time with parents John Drummond and Mary.Have you tried to establish who they were? Might there be a family connection?- John is also a sailor.
In the 1841 census Jane Drummond age 15 is shown as born out of census county-have you located her in subsequent censuses to see place of birth? Have you established what happened to Ellen Drummond baptised 1826 with parents James Drummond and Mary Husband?
William
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Hi William. The John Drummond who lived in Whitby with wife Mary at the same time as my James and Mary may be related but I never found any link.My James and Mary had children William,Mary Ann James and Jane in Whitby then Ellen,Elizabeth and John in Sunderland of which I have full information on the family It is James's early life I am trying to find info on. As you say lots of possible links but nothing definite.Some other people with tree's of my family pick James being born in kinross 1788 but again they have no evidence to back this up. This seamans ticket is the best I have found
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Hi all back in 2016 I tried to link a James Drummond born in Scotland around 1788 to a marriage in Whitby to a Mary Husband in 1813. I’m trying again with maybe fresh eyes.
The main possibility’s seem to be a James Drummond born in Kinross 1788 and a James Drummond born in Falkirk 1789. Can anyone link these to the Whitby marriage. Around 1825 the family moved from Whitby and Settled in Sunderland. From his marriage in Whitby 1813 till his death in Sunderland 1873 I have full family details, but looking for that birth to marriage link is he in any of your family trees
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Do the 1851/61/71 censuses give his actual birthplace in Scotland?
Have you found a James Drummond on any Scottish census matching one or other of those births for elimination purposes?
Link to previous thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=732451.msg6089186#msg6089186
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Hi Carole. All the census just state birth Scotland. I have not looked at Scottish census at all to match a Kinross or Falkirk birth,but that’s something to think about
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In the 1841 census he says he is 50. Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so he could have been born any time from 8 June 1786 to 7 June 1791.
In 1861 he says he is 73, and in 1871 83, which is consistent and if accurate means that he was born between about April 1787 and March 1788 (because the census was taken at the end of March or beginning of April).
The index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk lists 25 James Drummonds born 1786-1790. Only 21 of these baptism records include the mother's maiden surname. None of the baptisms was in either Kinross or Falkirk. (Where did you find the ones you mention above?)
The post-1855 statutory deaths index lists just 8 James Drummonds born 1788 plus or minus 3 years
There are only two deaths in the index of James Drummonds born 1788 plus or minus three years that can be matched with any of the baptisms:
Mother Duncanson, baptism Logie 1787, died Edinburgh 1872
Mother Ritchie, baptism Forgandenny 1788, died Dunbarney 1875
There are two deaths with no mother's surname
Tillicoultry, 1855, aged 67
Polmont, 1867, aged 80; could be the one baptised in Polmont, 1787, mother's surname Gaff
It may be that the actual death certificates would contain information that would enable them to be indentified with certainty.
And there are four deaths with mother's surname not matching any of the baptisms
Mother McKinnon, Kilmore and Kilbride (Argyll), 1859, aged 66 - if age is accurate, born 1792/1793.
Mother Kesson, Hutchesontown (Glasgow), 1859, aged 68 - this is probably the one baptised in Paisley in 1791
Mother Gairdner, Blackford, 1874, aged 88 - probably the one baptised in Muthill in 1793
Mother Black, Portmoak, 1876, aged 85 - probably the one baptised in Portmoak in 1791
If so all are too young to be confused with your James Drummond.
The index to the 1851 census at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk lists 10 James Drummonds aged 60 to 64.
Age 63, Polmont - born Polmont so probably the one who died in Polmont in 1867
Age 60, Portmoak - born Portmoak so probably the one who died in Portmoak in 1876
Age 60, Cambuslang - born Cambuslang but too young to be confused with yours
Age 62, Dunbarney - born Forgandenny so probably the one who died in Dunbarney in 1875
Age 60, Crieff - born Crieff but possibly too young to be confused with yours
Age 60, Old Kilpatrick - born Old Kilpatrick but possibly too young to be confused with yours
Age 61, Neilston - born Ireland
Age 64, Edinburgh - born Logie, Clackmannanshire so probably the one who died in Edinburgh in 1872
Age 62, Tillicoultry - born Dunning so probably the one baptised in Dunning in 1786 and died in Tillicoultry in 1855
Age 63, Dunblane - born Dunblane so probably the one baptised in Dunblane in 1787
So that leaves 23 baptised in 1786-1790 and not accounted for
Mother Clerk, 1786, Muthill
Mother Donaldson, 1786, Comrie
Mother Irvine, 1787, Shapinsay
Mother Smith, 1787, Sanday
Mother Bishop. 1787, St Cuthbert's (Edinburgh)
Mother Burn, 1788, St Cuthbert's
Mother Whyt, 1788, Portmoak
Mother Buchanan, 1788, Kilmadock
Mother Drummond, 1788, Monzie - but the same parents had another James in 1789 so this one probably died in infancy
Mother Watson, 1788, Dalkeith
Mother Martin, 1788, Larbert
Mother Drummond, 1788, Comrie
Mother Drummond, 1789, Monzie
Mother McRobbie, 1789, Muthill
Mother Wallace, 1790, Durisdeer
Mother Ross, 1790, St Andrews and St Leonards
Mother Millar, 1790, St Ninians (Stirling)
Mother Maxton, 1790, Crieff
And with no mother named:
1786, Dunning
1787, Inverarity
1787, Dunblane
1789, Methven
Why not make a spreadsheet and see if you can match up any more? And take a look at the 1841 census and add that information? There is a reliable census transcription at FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl that is almost complete for Scotland for 1841 - only a few parishes in Perthshire and a few in Berwickshire are still to be added.
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Hi thanks for all that information. You ask where I got the Falkirk and Portmoak James Drummond’s from, the Falkirk 1 from the Seaman’s ticket which is the first post here, the Portmoak 1 with mother Mary Whytt is on some tree’s but not any of the tree owners I have managed to contact have a definite link except his birth year being 1788c which as you have pointed out could match quite a few. I have just been looking at the 1841,51,61 census and I have seen the Dunbarney and Dunblane JDs could also match. Maybe I’m asking the impossible with so many options but it’s an open end on my tree
Thanks againForfarian
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Hi thanks for all that information. You ask where I got the Falkirk and Portmoak James Drummond’s from, the Falkirk 1 from the Seaman’s ticket which is the first post here, the Portmoak 1 with mother Mary Whytt is on some tree’s but not any of the tree owners I have managed to contact have a definite link except his birth year being 1788c which as you have pointed out could match quite a few. I have just been looking at the 1841,51,61 census and I have seen the Dunbarney and Dunblane JDs could also match. Maybe I’m asking the impossible with so many options but it’s an open end on my tree
I think you should be able to eliminate any who appear in the census in Scotland.
It wasn't the information on the seaman's ticket I wondered about. You said in your earlier post today, "The main possibility’s seem to be a James Drummond born in Kinross 1788 and a James Drummond born in Falkirk 1789", and there is no record of a baptism in either Kinross or Falkirk.
I think that if he said he was born in Falkirk, that's where you need to look. It's not going to be any of the ones whose baptisms are on record elsewhere. There are several Drummond couples having family baptised in Falkirk between 1777 and 1798, and it may well be that your James is an unrecorded child of one of those couples.
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The seaman’s ticket states born Falkirk 1789, and on F/S states James b-1788 Portmoak parents James Drummond and Mary Wyat
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If F/S means that it comes from an online tree at FamilySearch, do not trust it. Never trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary.
Unfortunately there are people who imagine that just because there is only one candidate who roughly fits what they know about the person they are researching, it must be the right person. So they add him/her to their online tree. Then 99 other people find and copy the wrong information to their own trees, and before you know it, "There are 100 trees saying it so it must be correct".
Portmoak is not close to Falkirk or even in the same county, and the original baptism at Scotland's People gives the surname of the mother of the James Drummond baptised in Portmoak as Whytt not Wyat.
Your James Drummond said that he was born in Falkirk. Unless his parents moved to Falkirk when he was too young to remember and didn't tell him where he was born, or unless he deliberately lied, then Falkirk is where he was born. Not nearly 40 miles away in a different parish in a different county.
The baptism of James, son of James D and Mary Whytt in Portmoak, was on 30 January 1788. That's one year, 8 months and 15 days before the date when your James Drummond said he was born.
Do you have a list of all your James Drummond's children, in order of birth? Sometimes, if the parents adhered to the Scottish naming tradition, the children's names are a clue to their grandparents' names.
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I don’t know if the seaman’s ticket does belong to my James it is an option, and yes the F/S is what you guessed and the spelling of Mary Whytt was a typo mistake by me, they had 2 other children David and Christian but again although others state this family is the the family of the James That married in Whitby I look for positive links hence this post
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Ah, I see.
Have you found him in the 1851 census?
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No I assumed he was at sea, he first appears in the 1861 census in Trafalgar Square Sunderland but it just states b Scotland 1788, that’s what makes it hard to pin him down as you know there are lots of James Drummond’s in Scotland.