RootsChat.Com
Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: Retriever on Sunday 11 October 15 17:32 BST (UK)
-
I am hoping someone can answer a question for me.
I was lucky enough to find my ancestors' grave at Ladywell and Brockley when I visited last year because there is a headstone. Deceased on Line now have the records for this cemetery on their site and when I checked the fact came up that there are three others in the grave although there is no mention of anyone else on the headstone.
My gggranny was buried there in 1883, then an Elric Hill in 1892 followed by my gggrandfather in 1895, and then Ann Caroline 1902 and Annie Emilie 1931, also Hill.
It seems rather odd to me as I had assumed that the headstone was erected following the burial of my gggrandfather. Would it have been taken up twice to bury two others with such a long gap in between?
Any comments?
-
Was your GG-Grandmother a relative of Elric, Ann Caroline and Annie Emilie?
There appears to be a marriage?
June qtr 1891
Camberwell qtr vol 1d, page 1001
Hill Elric John
Jehle/Iehle Annie Emilie as a possible spouse
Lots of data on Ancestry trees for Anna Emilie Jehle, b 1864 Germany, and her marriage to Elric John Hill.
-
There is a tree on Ancestry with an image of the headstone - Brockley A-Con 713 which shows Elric Hill 1892, Ann Caroline (Osbiston) 1902, Elric John 1915 and Anna Emilie (Jehle) 1931. No sign of any other names - not a very good image :-\
-
To answer your last question, yes the grave could have been re-opened twice. My grandfather purchased a grave for five in the 1930s, I buried his two unmarried daughters there, fifty two and sixty years later.
Mike
-
I presume that your grandparents were Sarah Ann Howard & Charles Howard.
-
Is it possible that it may be an incorrect transcription of the grave number from the grave register?
This happened with my grandparents grave details on Deceased on Line. There was a 'stranger' in with them -- but when I looked at the register image - the stranger's grave number had been mis-transcribed.
As a result they were listed as all in the same grave - which wasn't so.
-
My great grandmother purchased a plot when her husband died in the late 19th C , it was to hold six bodies. By the time she died there was no room for her so she was buried in a different plot. The six were all family but had different surnames and were buried separately over a period of 52 years.
-
Many thanks for all the responses. The other family have no connection to mine.
I will have to recheck Deceased on Line, but that will have to wait until tomorrow. The eyes have had it!
-
I have checked the online records held by NWKFHS for Ladywell and Brockley. As I understand it, these cover graves with headstones.
The reference number given for the Hills is 9914 whereas for the Howards it is 9897, so there would appear to have been a transcription error.
To add to the confusion, NWKFHS records have Melville and Hannah Gough buried with my ancestors but Deceased on Line have them elsewhere.
Pennines, did you tell Deceased on Line or let it go?
Bye
-
Hi Retriever,
I am ashamed to say that I didn't tell them -- but I should have done (bone idle springs to mind!)
Now this correspondence has reminded me about it - I will tell them.
-
Hi Pennines, I will too.
Bye
-
The grave reference on those records says they are all in Plot No A 713. Perhaps it is a double plot :-\
-
In my case it is definitely a simple mistranscription -- should have been Grave Number 171 (where I found the lady's husband from the same address) - buried. It was a difficult to decipher handwritten number.
As it was she was recorded in Grave 141 - with my grandparents.
I have now informed Deceased on Line about this -- wasn't easy to find where to do this on that site -- but the relative section is hidden way, way down on the 'Help' section.
-
Hi Rosie. It is definitely a single plot.
Rather belatedly I have looked at the online Tree as mentioned by BumbleB and as well as a photo of their Hill grave they also have the graveyard map. Their plot is in one section, and mine in another but they both have the reference A713.
I have e-mailed Deceased so will see what they come back with.
-
I am looking to reopen a plot, 54 years after it was last opened, for ashes. If you just looked at the names you'd think "who the heck are they?" as it'll be the grand-daughter and 2nd husband.... but anybody with a small tree will not have spotted the 2nd marriage. In my case I will ensure the inscription gives dates, full names and an audit trail in case anybody in 200 years' time wonders.
-
this might explain some multiple burials from deceasedonline
Other interments in a grave are most useful in finding additional members of the family, as purchased graves can hold members of the family related directly or by marriage. However, if the grave is un-purchased (sometimes known as a "common" grave, or historically as a "paupers grave") then it is unlikely that interments in the grave will be of relatives, as these graves were used for those that couldn't afford to purchase exclusive burial rights in a plot, and typically hold a larger number of interments than privately purchased graves. The information about whether a grave is purchased or not is not always available on the website, but if a grave contains a large number of interments, and/or if the family names of the deceased are all different, then it is probably un-purchased.
Additionally, on rare occasions, fixed term burial rights in graves may have been re-sold on expiry to unrelated persons, in which case the original remains should still be recorded as being in the grave.
-
Many thanks for the interest. The thing is this Hill family have their own grave with headstone in another part of the cemetery.
Perhaps there are other family members in "my" grave but if so they must be listed elsewhere.
-
Hi Retriever
I wonder what the additional cs* indicates on the Hill burials reference, hopefully deceasedonline will explain. If they have nothing to clarify this difference then as far as they are concerned the Hills & Howards are in the same plot and are only transcribing what the records show. Still at least other records exist to show they are in separate plots.
Let us know what DO say as I see there are other records with the same thing after the number.
Rosie :)
-
Hi Rosie
I haven't noticed the cs* so cant comment on that.
I contacted the Tree owner on Ancestry and he tells me a relative visited the cemetery a few years back and took the photo of the grave. He also has the same reference as I do so presumably the error is with Lewisham.
The grave number I got from the back of the headstone is nothing like plot A713, which is what the other Tree owner and I both have. Surely they wouldn't use the same reference number in two different sections of the cemetery, especially when they are in such close proximity.
I will let you know how it all works out, although I don't think anything will be done.
Regards
-
Retriever -- you may have to contact the cemetery direct.
I don't know - but I imagine Deceased on Line have simply obtained records from each cemetery. Maybe they've transcribed them from the registers - but if it's not a transcription error - then the grave/burial registers held by the cemetery need checking by that cemetery. (I think!)
-
Hi Pennines.
I don't think I will bother as I know the facts. It is unlikely there are any other family members in the grave because I have no idea what Sarah Ann was doing dying in Deptford. The family were living in the Clerkenwell area so finding her and then Charles buried in Brockley was a lucky find.
The rest of the family are buried North London.
Regards
-
I am hoping someone can answer a question for me.
I was lucky enough to find my ancestors' grave at Ladywell and Brockley when I visited last year because there is a headstone. Deceased on Line now have the records for this cemetery on their site and when I checked the fact came up that there are three others in the grave although there is no mention of anyone else on the headstone.
My gggranny was buried there in 1883, then an Elric Hill in 1892 followed by my gggrandfather in 1895, and then Ann Caroline 1902 and Annie Emilie 1931, also Hill.
It seems rather odd to me as I had assumed that the headstone was erected following the burial of my gggrandfather. Would it have been taken up twice to bury two others with such a long gap in between?
Any comments?
The first thing to do is to check the burial plot register (sometimes called a grave register oe lair register).
That will tell you who bought the plot what class of plot it is and exactly who is buried in it.
It could be a what is often called a third class plot other cemeteries call this a public plot or common plot.
In many cemteries these third class plots allow for a gravestone to be erected in other cemetries no gravestone is allowed to give the appearance of a less crowded cemetry.
Where a gravestone is allowed further inscriptions would only be added with permission of the owner of the gravestone, which may be the family who erected the stone or it may be the cemetery depending on the terms of the cemetery.
The stone may have been erected after the first burial and re-inscribed after your gggrandfather's burial.
Cheers
Guy
-
looking at the burial register scan it definitely says A713 for Sarah Ann Howard, elric hill, anne Emily ann caroline, and Charles believe CS stands for catholic service
-
Hi sandiep. Yes the burial registers give A713 for both the Hills and the Howards, although they are definitely in different sections of A-con. That is what has caused the confusion.
There are three separate segments on the cemetery map, all marked as A-con, the Howards are in one segment and the Hills in another.
Guy, this is a very crowded cemetery and all the headstones I looked at in the vicinity of my relatives seemed to be family graves. There is definitely no room on the headstone for any more inscriptions.
Regards
-
Off topic I know - and perhaps most people know this - but I recently enquired about grandparents & great grandparents graves. The former was bought outright by an uncle who died 1975; the latter on a 100 yr lease [bizarrely called 'in perpetuity' - 100 years is not what my schoolgirl latin tells me perpetuity means] by a great uncle who died in 1949. However ownership of the graves can only be transferred in the lifetime of the original purchaser - again rather bizarre. For the former I have been able to have my name put on a list of 'interested parties' as the headstone is to be renovated & in case at some stage ashes could be buried there; for the latter only direct descendants can do so & I am trying to contact them to do something as the lease expires in 2016.
Josey
-
Prior to 1977, when the law was changed by the Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977 (which came into effect 10 march 1977), people were granted burial rights in perpetuity the meaning of which was for ever.
The Local Authorities Cemeteries Order 1977 Local Authorities the right to reduce the time period of any grave space granted in perpetuity, or for a period exceeding 100 years from the date of the grant to 100 years and six months, unless the owner of the rights objected.
This odd time period comes from the fact that after 100 years the cemetery authority could serve a notice on the holder of the rights and he/she had six months to respond.
The “life” of a grave plot can now be as little as 30 years.
Cheers
Guy
-
Thank you for the clarification & additional information Guy. My grandparents' 'bought outright' grave was in 1936 & the '100 yr lease' in 1926 - not 1916 as I first thought.
after 100 years the cemetery authority could serve a notice on the holder of the rights and he/she had six months to respond.
The law does not seem to recognise that the owner of the rights has often long been dead by the time any of the family realise that the rights can only be transferred in this owner's lifetime. Perhaps I am naive/uninformed & it is actually common practice for the owner of grave rights to transfer them in a will??
-
The law does not seem to recognise that the owner of the rights has often long been dead by the time any of the family realise that the rights can only be transferred in this owner's lifetime. Perhaps I am naive/uninformed & it is actually common practice for the owner of grave rights to transfer them in a will??
A grave plot is real estate the same as a house or a piece of land and as such is heritable property.
It is normally covered by a residue bequest such as the one below rather than being specifically listed in a will :
“And as to all the rest, residue, and remainder of my estate, whatsoever, wheresoever, and of what nature or kind or quality soever the same may be, and not herein before given and disposed”
Cheers
Guy