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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: brigidmac on Wednesday 14 October 15 06:45 BST (UK)
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could anyone take a guess at what type of postcards my ggfather was arrested for selling in Dundee in 1906
1 newspaper referred to them as "travesties of modern art" so i thought they were likely to be photos as opposed to drawings with saucy sentences .
He'd been selling them in Derby and procured them from a "large midlands town ".
So he had gone into six shops in Dundee and asked openly if they were interested before someone fetched the police ! He was fined given choice of 10 days imprisonment ..I wonder what happened to the postcards ...?
We have proof of him being a draper +general dealer in Birkenhead in 1901 , 1906 article had him as an "art dealer" ,by 1911 he was a travelling salesman in Wales (but dont know if he'd given up on postcards )
His brother in law Benjamin Bloch was a picture framer in Dundee/Glasgow from the 1890's
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google Victorian saucy postcards select images.
James
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Thans James , I don't know if they were "saucy " + actually 1906 was start of Edwardian era
When i did try ti Google got lots of stuff ireally didn't want to see or read .which is why i went to local bookshop ..I asked for "Victorian Erotica" and got the Gentleman's relish book ..but there are very few dates its more collections by themes
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Probably bathers displaying too much flesh for the delicate Edwardian senses:
In the early years of the 20th century postcards began showing female bathers with bare feet and sometimes bare ankles and curves as well. Even the sleeves on some of these bathing dresses were sometimes cut far back enough to expose the arm above the wrist. These alterations however do not represent any real changes in fashion but rather a shifting philosophy in postcard production. There had always been a strong demand for cards containing female imagery from their very inception. Those depicting nudes were the most sought after but the most difficult to obtain for they could rarely be mailed and various criminal penalties could be attached to their dissemination.
Images of cross dressers:
http://www.metropostcard.com/metropcbloga4.html
Carol
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This reminds me of an episode of The Goon show--Colonel Bloodnock was sending off for " some naughty photograph postcards" to be delivered in a plain brown envelope .
He was paying for them with a photograph of a five pound note ;D
Still creases me up 60 years later.
Viktoria.
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I would say they were photos of naked or near naked women in classical poses.
Photographers/sellers tried to get round the obscenity laws by claiming they were art photographs.
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Jim I 'm with you but in defence of my great grandfather they could have been art photos ...he was an Art dealer at one point .Hard to see the difference between statues portraits + photos that were just natural not provocative poses .
Thanks for all comments + the link Carol
Was his daughter "indelicate " ...? My avatar is the daughter he never knew my nan ..how old do you think she is in this photo in her bathing suit ?? She was born Dec 1899 .
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loads to read on Carol's link + some lovely pics
can i copy them after 100 years i suppose they are not copy right
" If laws prohibited publishers from marketing nudes they could often get away with providing the risqué, and they did so in large numbers as the demand for them insured high profits. Publishers would continually press the limits on how much flesh they could show off in order to attract more customers without getting in trouble with the authorities. This created a situation where the fashions displayed on artist drawn and photo studio postcards were usually years ahead of what was actually socially permissible to wear out in public. "
quoted from that link
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When you think of the seaside postcards which were very risqué,with their well endowed girls and matronly wives of hen-pecked husbands ::) .Granted they were cartoons but very "naughty " non the less.
Very funny though .Viktoria.
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Some of the saucy ones are funny ,most based on stereotypes + derogatory to wives ..I'm not sure how long they have existed .
But i think the development in popularity of photogrphs around 1906 may have led to the spate of prosecutions around sales of "dirty postcards" .
New ethics had to be developed .
As for paintings ..have seem some beautiful ones ..several feature naked cherubs which my Hungarian friend thought "highly objectionable "
naked babies with wings are a bit creepy ..but at the time i suppose they symbolised cherubs .
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ps mum brought me the photo album with bathing nana ;she must have been over 18 because the picture was taken by my grandfather with his brownie box and they met when he was in uniform (at end of war ?)
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I'm reminded of a story my Dad used to tell (this would be in the 1920s) His father had a bureau which he usually kept locked, but one day for some reason he thought that somebody had been looking through the drawers in it, and accused his nine year old son. Dad hadn't been near the bureau and had no idea what was in it, but seeing that he was going to be in trouble anyway, answered, "Yes, and I'm going to tell Mum about all those rude postcards you've got in there!" To which his father, somewhat flustered replied, "They aren't rude postcards. They're real art studies."
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ha ha serves your grandad right ...but what happened to them ....could be worth a lot on e-bay these days .wonder what spouses do when they discover that kind of thing after partner passes away
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I need some super sleuths in Scotland to find the transcription of the 1906 court case or other similar ones of that era to compare with the 2 newspaper reports ;were th epics "highly offensive" "Indelicate" "A travesty of modern art" or just ART ..were they drawings or photos . would there be any links with Benjamin Bloch son of Elias Picture framers since 1890's in Glasgow/ Dundee .
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Does it show my age that I remember the Goon Show ;D ;D
The Scottish Law Reporter. Vol. 44 1906-07: Cases Decided in the Court of Session, Court of Justiciary, Court of Teinds, Railway and Canal Commission, Valuation Appeal Court, Provisional Order Comittees, Privy Council, and House of Lords.
Scotland Courts
Published by Edinburgh, John Baxter, 1907;, 1907
Perhaps somewhere there is a copy of this book available.........
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wow thanks for that ref silly dogs ...yes there should be a copy ...somewhere...to consult ...Scotland is too far for me to travel . I wonder where it would be kept .
I did a bit of comedy about what is objectionable + what is not ...even today jury is out on some things
are cupids a symbol of love + innocence
or
creepy naked babies with wings ?
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..I wonder what happened to the postcards ...?
It'd be a nice thought to think that they were sitting in some archive somewhere, as part of the trial papers.... but very unlikely as, over the years, sneaky policemen would've dipped a hand in to nick one :)
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or would they have been destroyed ..immflamatory
or returned to him or the publishers on condition that he didn't try to sell them in Scotland ?
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if you have any postcards from 1906 that may be considered "indelicate" I'd love to see them ....post in a message if too indelicate for a public board.
There's a great article in local paper re "offensive " pics and a facebook ruling.
Apparently "female nipples" are offensive unless on statues or in breast-feeding photos ;so 3 women have posted a topless photo of themselves with their nipples covered by photos of their husbands nipples ..hence acceptable !
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Coming back to this
My collection has expanded
+ I include modern photos topless mostly of family members because we havent found evidence of what the photos actually were
& I dont show any pictures if any of audience thinks they will be offended
Usually raises a laugh when they see topless picture of myself on a tractor
In a nappy
Age 18months !
Other topless family members are topless cousin preparing for a gig with HIS band
& Sister in bath 9months pregnant natural
ARTY but not one I or she necessarily want to share with world
Her son the bump nearly 4O might like it in his treasure bocmx
I must admit I've voncentrated on my theory of nudes .havent seen many bathers and do look out for those !
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There is a famous picture by Goya, which has been re-posed many times, all the way up to the 70s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Goya#/media/File:Goya_Maja_naga2.jpg
Regards
Chas
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Thanks kiltpin
Very artistic i think .
Might even take it to the 2020's and see if any family members want to recreate that .!
One of the places where we meet up for time travel work is the regency hotel which has chaise longue on top floor and a four poster bed in honeymoon suite which we can use for filmimg and photography i have an Edwardian wedding dress wich various people have pised in including the night receptionist who posed as a ghost .i have photos on Facebook but dont kknow how to share
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My g grandfather was also prosecuted for selling indecent postcards, in Sydney in 1905. He had a picture framing/art gallery business and argued that the images were copies of pieces that could be seen in galleries in Berlin, and had letters from notable artists and trustees of the NSW art gallery, but he was still fined, and said he wouldn't sell any more. I suspect his postcards really were "artworks", not just "naughty postcards", but who knows, different times. :)
As an aside, my avatar here is my grandmother at Bondi beach c1915. She was well known for her outrageous swimwear which she designed and made herself. At one time she was escorted from the beach for being too revealing. :D
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Maddy thanks so much
Yes our ancestors were certainly prosecuted for art
+What happened to those postcards
I have an article on history mysteries Facebook page about a lady who designed swim wear ...what was her name ..do you have a copy of the news article .can i use it when i do interactive story telling " the body beautiful"
Which ive only" performed" that once at a hens night in a beauty salon
Ive just realized that one of the postcards i collected for discussion purposes has stamps from the solomon islands and an address in Leicester which is now a betting shop .the stamps may be rare !
Private message me please
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/302518847273009/permalink/805923883599167/
Heres a swimwear designer . Annette Kellerman
Times were different in some countries there was also a big naturist.movement
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I'll have to dig out my gran's photo albums where she has a newspaper cutting about the beach episode. Might take some time to find it! (She wasn't Annette Kellerman!)
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as a thank you to all who contributed heres a video of the story being read by a real life descendant of George Jacob FELLMAN and a part reading part interview with a veteran post card collector .
permission to share was obtained .Id love your comments before the filmmaker + I do the next 1 .
https://www.facebook.com/100028685431550/videos/470825104367313/
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I'll have to dig out my gran's photo albums where she has a newspaper cutting about the beach episode. Might take some time to find it! (She wasn't Annette Kellerman!)
Well I've finally found the article I was thinking of in my grandmother's photo collection (it was actually in an album of my grandfather's from before they were married). My memory of the event obviously wasn't quite correct, though I'm sure my grandmother told me that she had been escorted off the beach. I have lots of photos of her beautiful beachwear creations, though they're not actually very revealing, just colourful and unusual - for the times. :D
Here's a link to the original newspaper item in January 1920.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article234223787 (bottom the 1st column)
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Perhaps something of this nature? ;)
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Maddy I love your grans picture and the article with the colours described
Do post more if you find them .
Maybe being Escorted off the beach was a different occasion
Mowser I like that picture too do you know the date and what was your source ?
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Maddy I love your grans picture and the article with the colours described
Do post more if you find them .
Maybe being Escorted off the beach was a different occasion
Mowser I like that picture too do you know the date and what was your source ?
Google images. I didn't note any further info sorry.
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Hair style makes me think 1920s but underwear is rather sophisticated so maybe closer to 1930s or 40s
I wonder what words you used to search in Google ...I was put off attempting to do that again !
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The artist of Mowsehowse's picture is Georges Léonnec. Work by Georges featured on the covers of La Vie Parisienne. No idea on the date though I'd hazard a guess at maybe 1910-1920.
His French wikipedia entry mentions more publications and more about his career https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_L%C3%A9onnec (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_L%C3%A9onnec)
Incidentally the restrictions placed on photos/postcards were mirrored in the theatre. The terms 'tableau vivant' and 'poses plastiques' should point you in the right direction if you're interested.
S_L
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Maddy I love your grans picture and the article with the colours described
Do post more if you find them .
Maybe being Escorted off the beach was a different occasion
Mowser I like that picture too do you know the date and what was your source ?
The costume in the photo and clip would have been just gorgeous.
The fuss reminds me of an old pop song about a "teeny yellow polka-dot bikini" The wearer was greeted a bit the same way I seem to remember ::)
Sue
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Maddy I love your grans picture and the article with the colours described
Do post more if you find them .
Maybe being Escorted off the beach was a different occasion
Mowser I like that picture too do you know the date and what was your source ?
The costume in the photo and clip would have been just gorgeous.
The fuss reminds me of an old pop song about a "teeny yellow polka-dot bikini" The wearer was greeted a bit the same way I seem to remember ::)
Sue
Thanks Sue, yes it's great to have the description so that we know the colour of that particular costume - bright orange!
I do like this photo which shows just how different my grandmother's cossies were compared to others of her peers. Quite modest really, but flamboyant. :D
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Good evening,
i have photos on Facebook but don't know how to share
If you put them on facebook yourself then you must also have them stored elsewhere. ie; pictures, photo's etc.
If they are from another outside source then click on picture which opens it in another window. at top right click on 3 spots, click on share external then click on drive,photo's or email it to yourself then save to pictures. It may vary slightly depending on whether you use facebook on PC, Iphone, or android phone.
John915
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Good evening,
First thing that came up on a search, https://www.rootschat.com/links/01roo/
Anybody for a new Tshirt. ;D ;D ;D
John915
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Who knew that bikinis were originally designed for men.
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john thanks for looking
yes id quite like one of those tshirts before my next performance 8th august
and yes i do have photos somewhere ...in digital hyperspace