RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent Lookup Requests => Kent => England => Kent Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WillieEverlearn on Saturday 17 October 15 16:47 BST (UK)
-
I am trying to find my grandfather's birth details.
Would some kind soul please look in the parish register for Bromely to give me the birth details of Arthur GRAY in Vol. 2A Page 347 1873? Especially to solve a discrepancy between what he always said his birthday was and the only listing that I can find. He always said he was born on 2nd, September 1874 in Shoreham, but the only record I can find is 1873 1Q (March) 1873 (in FindMyPast). Could it be that one date might be his birth and the other date his baptized date? A digital copy of this entry would also be appreciated and can be emailed to me via Removed
Many thanks for any help with this problem.
Brian
-
Hi
We cannot look at birth registrations without buying them from the GRO. Prior to the late 1870's not all births were registered so it is quite likely that your grandfathers was not. :-\
Do you have him on the census anywhere. Who is named as his father on his marriage certificate.
Rosie
-
Hi Brian
There is no way of seeing the original birth certifcates with the GRO references you have quoted ( Vol. 2A Page 347 1873) unless you purchase the original birth certificates which cost £9.25 direct from the GRO at www.gro.gov.uk
In accordance with our policies I have removed your email address.
We have the personal message system for exchanging these details.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Is he Arthur C and Arthur Christopher Grey on the 1901 and 1911 censuses?
-
Yes that is him. I was originally asking for someone to look at the parish record. I presume this is different than the GRO record.
Thanks
-
The details you posted come from the General Register Office, the official government organisation responsible for the recording of births, marriages and deaths. Civil registration started in 1837.
Prior to this date, the church was responsible for recording baptisms (not births), marriages and burials (not deaths).
The 2 sets of data do not match exactly.
Events after 1837 at the parish of Shoreham should be recorded under Sevenoaks registration district
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/sevenoaks.html
I can't see the parish registers for Shoreham online anywhere.
-
The Bromley registration district covered/covers a wide area with many churches. I only have the baptismal registers for St George, Beckenham, which have:
Arthur (no middle name) Gray, son of George (wood engraver) and Caroline, born 12-Dec-1872, baptised 4-May-1873, residence Beckenham
which would fit a March quarter 1873 registration.
-
If he said that he was born Shoreham, Kent I don't think that would come under the Bromley registration district. I think it would have been Sevenoaks, so perhaps that is where you need to look.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/sevenoaks.html
-
Many thanks to Rosie, Dawn, Chris,Groom, for the quick reply.
So reading between the lines I tale it that this FindMyPast entry is not him.
And it looks like I need to look for "Sevenoaks" area.
I also note that the it looks like some (all?) the Shoreham Parish Records are missing.
So thanks to all for steering me in the right direction.
-
The Arthur Grey born Beckenham is with his parents in Essex in 1891, which might help rule him out.
RG12; Piece: 1422; Folio: 20; Page: 16
Bocking Essex
George Grey 47 Engraver Upton, Buckinghamshire
Caroline Grey 48 Newington, Sussex
Elizabeth Grey 19 Beckenham, Kent
Arthur Grey 18 Butcher's Apprentice Beckenham, Kent
Alice Grey 16 Beckenham, Kent
Jesse Grey 9 Braintree, Essex
Charles Grey 8 Braintree, Essex
-
What is the name of his father on the marriage certificate?
-
Thank you for your PM. :)
According to the above
- On his marriage certificate in 1901, he states his father is James Gray (deceased) Steward.
-
Hi Brian
It helps us to help you if you don't send personal messages unless the details are about living people.
If there is info to share, please post it openly so that we can all see what is known or has been found, others will then be happier to contribute and may have further things to add. Chatters here have access to all sorts of resources and may be put off posting if they think it has all been done already, behind the scenes.
Please note that many people find the site using internet search engines and if the details aren't posted, you might miss out on potential links/ relatives.
The registers for Shoreham aren't missing, they are at the Kent Archives. They don't appear to have been digitised and put online. Neither do they seem to have been transcribed by any of the Kent Family History Societies.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/e50b0107-50d9-4e13-8c63-1e54eb4bb6f9
-
- On his marriage certificate in 1901, he states his father is James Gray (deceased) Steward.
There is a death record for Arthur Christopher Grey in British Columbia :
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Genealogy/DisplayGenealogyImage?k=f828d508-034f-455f-888d-1d9db48a76da
It also gives his father's name as James , but birthplace Oxford.
It appears to be the right Arthur Grey as family members present in the 1911 census can also be found in BC in the 1921 census.
-
Interesting as the DOB on there is given as 2nd September 1879 Oxford, but there is no corresponding registration on Freebmd. I suppose the information could be wrong as the death was recorded by a friend, who perhaps knew when his birthday was, but not what year he was born.
It appears to be the right Arthur Grey as family members present in the 1911 census can also be found in BC in the 1921 census.
The death certificate says he's been in BC for 55 years which would mean he emigrated in 1906, so something is wrong somewhere!
I think the Oxford could come from the fact that he was there when he married Ada. Note as well that he is spelling his name as GREY.
Marriages Jun 1901
Busby Ada Ellen
GREY Arthur Christopher
Oxford 3a 1747
ADDED: Found them on the passenger list sailing on 28th Feb 1913 his DOB there is given as 1874. occupation Gardener.
-
The son , Cecil John , was born Oxford so that may be where the discrepancy came from..
-
You folks are good!.
All the information that has been posted here is correct, and I have documentation for everything posted.
The only thing missing is his birthday confirmation and the discrepancy is between what A.C. Grey says his birthday was as 02 September, in Shoreham, Kent and what I can find by searching on-line.
So it looks like I will have to contact the NW Kent Family History Society and have them go and look at the parish record.
Thanks Again- for all your help and suggestions
Brian Grey
-
The fact that there is no sign of him in the census or Freebmd leads me to think that perhaps he wasn't born as Gray.
-
I think there may be a clue in the 1901 census , but I can't quite work it out.
1901
Emma Gray b 1831 Chettle , Dorset wid
Arthur C Gray b 1874 Shoreham nurseryman visitor
Ada E Busley b 1879 Oxon ( His intended wife Ada E Busby)
I can't find Emma Gray on earlier census but there is an Emma Booker b 1831 Chettle
1871 census
Samuel Booker 43
Emma Booker 40 b Chettle
Joseph
Henry L
Samuel C
Roda J
Martha
Samuel Booker m Emma Ryman 23 Jan 1854 Horselydown. Samuel is a widower on the 1881 census and remarries a few years later. There is an Arthur Christopher Booker J-S 1873 Sevenoaks 2a 509. Did Emma Booker leave Samuel and have Arthur in 1873 and did they use the name Grey ? I've been looking for deaths and/or 1881 census without success so far. Any ideas , anyone ?
Christine
-
That's a good find, Christine - the combination of Arthur Christopher and place and DOB does make it look possible. Also the fact that the family in the 1871 census are living in Shoreham, Kent! I think you might have cracked it. ;D
-
I've found Emma Grey in 1891, lodging in Southampton Buildings , Lymington :
Emma Grey lodger married 60 cook b Chettle, Dorset.
There's no sign of Arthur , who would be old enough to be working elsewhere. I'm not sure I'm on the right track here - the 1881 census would help but eludes me at the moment.
-
If that is the correct one, this looks like Emma Ryman's christening and parents
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N64K-M5S
Possibly they aren't in the 1881 as she was trying to stay hidden? I can't find them under Ryman, Booker or Grey/Gray. I've also tried searching with just first names and places of birth.
-
Hi Brian
I just came across an Ancestry message board post from 2001 which I think you may have made ? If so I see you are already aware of the Bookers and already have Arthur Christopher Booker's birth certificate and this has not helped with resolving the problem. Trying another tack , do the witnesses on the marriage offer any clues ?
Christine
-
We have already looked at the Booker connection in 2013 for you here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=656354.0
I thought I recognised it ::)
-
We have already looked at the Booker connection in 2013 for you here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=656354.0
I thought I recognised it ::)
Oh dear! ::) ::)
-
I just found it too - at least I wasn't around the first time !
Christine
-
I have also just spotted that the birth cert was requested here as well
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=650942.
-
I have also just spotted that the birth cert was requested here as well
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=650942.
Oh dear again! ::)
Brian, it really does help if you post links of previous threads, that way we don't waste time going over previously found information.
-
Reprove accepted. I'm sorry if this caused anyone's annoyance
My original request just about the verification of a FindMyPast listing for an Arthur Gray in the parish records for Bromely for 1873, in order to eliminate him from my search for A.C. Grey b. 02 Sept. 1874.
I am having a hard time accepting that he was not a Grey but a Booker.
The reason I did not link this posting to my earlier request is
1. My research request was different in nature.
2. I didn't even think to do it, and I don't know how to do it
You folks have been very kind and have come up with all the pertinent facts to my family genealogy that I have to date.
Again, my apologies to groom/Rosie/CB53/dawnish/Chris, and any others.
Brian Grey
-
Apology accepted :D
I know you really want him to be a Gray, but I think the fact that several people, independently, have come up with the suggestion that he was actually a Booker is significant. If you look at Christine's findings from yesterday, she came up with the same information that was discovered a year or so ago.
I see from one of your other posts that the birth certificate of Arthur Christopher Booker is 2nd September 1873 Shoreham - exactly the same day and place as your Arthur Christopher Grey, although a year out. To me, this is too much of a coincidence in a small village, put together with the other facts that people have found. The year difference would not be that unusual at that time as people were not so concerned with when they were born. My grandmother always claimed that she was born in 1885, but it was discovered when she died that she was acually born in 1884. I think her birth date was adjusted to cover up the fact that her parents married 3 months before she was born. Maybe something similar happened with Arthur.
-
Thanks "groom" for your input.
So the speculation could be-
1. Emma ran off with James GRAY and then registered A.C. as a Booker.
2. With already having 5 children, the BOOKERS gave A.C. away after they registered his birth; but why to James GRAY; a relative; a neighbour; a traveling salesman?
3. something else entirely
Thanks Again
Brian
-
Sorry groom but just a note of correction for clarity. I have no birth certificate, that is what I am looking for. He always told everyone verbally that he was born 2 September 1874, i never saw any documentation from him personally.
Thanks Again
Brian
-
Sorry Brian, but I thought that you already had Arthur Christopher Booker's certificate as you said on another of your threads
"Thanks for the information.
I have AC Booker's birth certificate in front of me, what information would be of help?
Brian"
That is what I meant about having the same date of birth.
I don't think he was given away. I think that his mother left her husband and had an affair with James Grey. As she was called Booker that is why the child was registered as Booker rather than Grey, and as she was still married it would have been assumed that his father was a Booker. Then, although registered as Booker, both he and his mother used the name Gray for the rest of their lives.
-
Thanks "groom." I guess your explanation makes the most sense. I guess my search has ended.
Thanks again for your input.
Brian Grey
-
Follow up to CB53- I have looked at the witnesses on AC Grey/Emma's marriage certificate and I do not see anything promising there. There are three on the document- 1 is her employer and 2 is her sister and 3 UN-recognised name.
Thanks Again