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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: california dreamin on Tuesday 20 October 15 16:11 BST (UK)
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Hello friends,
I wonder if someone could tell me if it was possible to bury a man in Glasgow (1898) with no death certificate?
Thanks
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No it isn't.
If you can't find his death,have you considered that he died elsewhere ie not in Scotland?
Or that his name has been mistranscribed.
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If the death was late December it may not have been registered until the new year(1899).
ev
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So was this mysterious person and anything else you have on him?
Don
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If you'd care to name him/her and give us some more info,we'll see what we can do!
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As others, above, have noted:
- if he died elsewhere. Maybe he was away for Xmas at a relatives/in a hotel and died
- sometimes they turn up late in the records, so registered on 3rd January the following year.
It's also possible to register a death "anywhere", so the relative who will be dealing with matters could've registered the death locally to themselves, or in a neighbouring area/county when they visited to do all the paperwork.
It all depends on geography, transport, location of the registering offices. If, say, your relative died 100 miles away and you had an office in your local town you might choose to register the death there, rather than travelling 100 miles just to attend the office near where they died for a 10 minute bit of form filling.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your replies. No offence but I have tried all the usual. So the man in question is called John Donnelly (born in Ireland). I have been chasing him for years. I originally tried to get his dc from GRONI many years ago to be told his death either had not been registered or he had died somewhere else. At that time I also searched the civil deaths for Scotland and England and found nothing. So I thought okay he's died in Ireland and the death has not been registered. However, I have now resurrected my search as I have obtained a copy of the letters of admon from his 'estate' and his wife has stated that he died in Glasgow. So I have gone back onto Scotlands People, used a 'fuzzy' search, been liberal with thoughts on his age and where in Scotland he could have died, bought a couple of possible d/c entries (which I knew would be wrong) but did so to cover my bases all with no luck. So, today I rang the National Records of Scotland with the intention of paying for them to find the record! The nice lady did a search whilst I was on the phone and found nothing likely. So hence my last ditch attempt to find his dc or even if possible find an entry for a burial somewhere or get some ideas as to what actually happened to him (or his remains!) I assume his wife would have needed a copy of his dc to present to the High Court Justice official to get the money from his estate? I've even gone back to the GRONI indexes and done another search - I've also been re-examining the English indexes just in case. There is nothing for a 50-60 year old man
So, I was interested in Stanley's reply. So lets assume his wife was in Ireland when John died. Could she have registered his death in NI if he died in Glasgow? Or would it needed to have been somebody in Scotland registering his death because the death was in Glasgow or elsewhere in Scotland. I really can't understand why there is no trace of a cert. anywhere.
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Could he been involved with the Armed Forces?
And therefore died away from the UK?
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However, I have now resurrected my search as I have obtained a copy of the letters of admon from his 'estate' and his wife has stated that he died in Glasgow
So unless she wasn't being truthful, that is where his death should be registered. This is interesting though if it was in Scotland: "If the person died in Scotland, you can register their death at any registration office in Scotland"
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Could he been involved with the Armed Forces?
And therefore died away from the UK?
I would have thought that in those days, military deaths overseas would have been buried near to where they fell.
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According to G F Bisset-Smith's Vital Registration (1902), "The practical rule is that all Deaths are registered in the parish or district in which they occurred, irrespective of their residence."
In other words, if a person died away from home, the death was registered in the district where (s)he died. The rules have changed in recent years, since the advent of computers, and you can indeed now register a death in a different district, but in 1898 it was not permissible to register a death anywhere other than in the district where the person died.
So if he died in Glasgow, his death would have had to be registered in Glasgow.
I presume, since you talk of 'letters of administration', that his estate was not dealt with in Scotland.
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Oh don't I know the feeling... I've got one buried in 1851 with no death certificate. I'm almost positive the burial is mine but no corresponding death whatsoever... Mine was in the Merchant Navy, I can't help but envisage that they got into port and passed him off to the local churchyard. Such a pain.
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When you say he was from Ireland presumably you mean one of the 6 counties which make up the present Northern Ireland?
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There's a death for a John Connelly 1898 County, Lanark, District, Calton (Glasgow)
He is aged 2 but could be an indexing error.....worth a look I think.
Only recently I found a census for someone whereby the age was indexed wrongly.
Annie
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Oh don't I know the feeling... I've got one buried in 1851 with no death certificate. I'm almost positive the burial is mine but no corresponding death whatsoever... Mine was in the Merchant Navy, I can't help but envisage that they got into port and passed him off to the local churchyard. Such a pain.
Ayashi,
Difference there, it wasn't law to register in 1851 but it was law here in Scotland as of 1855.
Annie
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Hi all
Thanks for all your replies on this. No, he was not in the Services as far as I know. I would think it highly, highly unlikely. John was from NI and a tenant farmer so had a small amount of property there. The letter of admon was registered with the Londonderry Registry in 1900. I also have an exact date of death 15/9/1898.
I am unclear why John was in Glasgow. I can place his son there in 1894 (Milton District), so perhaps John went over to live/work/visit. I always assumed his son went there on his own. Always more questions!
Good thought about wrongly being indexed..
Forfarian, thanks for clarifying the registering of a death in Scotland. So if the wife has said he died in Glasgow, she must know.
So, next step?? :-[
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I don't know much about Scottish records, but as you know the exact date of death is there a way to search using the date and a wildcard rather than a name, in case it has been transcribed incorrectly?
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That is a good thought. I'm like you I just don't know Scottish records v. well or how to manipulate Scotlands People effectively to search.
Does anyone know if this could be done?
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You can only search on SP with yrs not exact dates unfortunately.
Have you looked at the one I mentioned as it's downloadable with 6 credits. 1 credit for the index & 5 credits for the image.
If it turns out to be him you can send a message to SP & your credits would be refunded but £1.15 is not a bad gamble at this stage I would say?
Annie
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I don't know much about Scottish records, but as you know the exact date of death is there a way to search using the date and a wildcard rather than a name, in case it has been transcribed incorrectly?
No, because the exact date of the event is not included in the index. The index to deaths includes the surname, given names, year of registration*, age at death, district name and number and serial number. For a married woman, and some other people who have had more than one surname, it also lists the other surnames, and from 1974 onwards it includes the deceased's mother's maiden surname.
*Unless the death occurred in the last few days of December and it wasn't registered until January, the year of registration is the year of death.
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Hi Annie,
I'll def. check your suggestion tomorrow. I agree it is worth the gamble. Thanks for suggesting it. I'll let you know what I find.
I wonder if there is a way to see all the indexed deaths for the month of Sept. (or that Quarter) in Glasgow? I'm thinking no, but maybe someone knows otherwise ?
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Hi
Perhaps you, or someone on your behalf, could search the Registers at the Scotlandspeople Hub (Edinburgh) or one of the other locations in Scotland. Providing you can scroll through the Registers, and you have an exact date, it shouldn't be too difficult a job.
Andy
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There's a death for a John Connelly 1898 County, Lanark, District, Calton (Glasgow)
He is aged 2 but could be an indexing error.....worth a look I think.
Only recently I found a census for someone whereby the age was indexed wrongly.
Annie
Here is part of my reply from SP. The person in question was aged 100 if I remember.
"Thank you for your email.
Many apologies for the index problem you have encountered. Catherine has been indexed as age 1"
Annie
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I wonder if there is a way to see all the indexed deaths for the month of Sept. (or that Quarter) in Glasgow? I'm thinking no, but maybe someone knows otherwise ?
It would be possible but very time-consuming, and very expensive unless you were in the SP Centre. Each of the 20-odd districts in Glasgow has a separate book for every year, so you might need to go through over 20 books to check every death in Glasgow in September 1898. Also it used to be forbidden to browse the books like that. (The Scottish statutory registers are not split up into quarters as they are in England and Wales.)
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Hi Annie,
I'll def. check your suggestion tomorrow. I agree it is worth the gamble. Thanks for suggesting it. I'll let you know what I find.
I wonder if there is a way to see all the indexed deaths for the month of Sept. (or that Quarter) in Glasgow? I'm thinking no, but maybe someone knows otherwise ?
The answer is no....you can only search by year of death.
Annie
Added.......to include Forfarians reply (on SP site you can only search years)
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Hi
Perhaps you, or someone on your behalf, could search the Registers at the Scotlandspeople Hub (Edinburgh) or one of the other locations in Scotland. Providing you can scroll through the Registers, and you have an exact date, it shouldn't be too difficult a job.
Andy
I take it Andy, you have never been to Register House?
That would be quite time consuming & as it costs quite a bit for a comp for a day it would be a big ask to be honest.
Annie
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Hi
Perhaps you, or someone on your behalf, could search the Registers at the Scotlandspeople Hub (Edinburgh) or one of the other locations in Scotland. Providing you can scroll through the Registers, and you have an exact date, it shouldn't be too difficult a job.
Andy
I take it Andy, you have never been to Register House?
That would be quite time consuming & as it costs quite a bit for a comp for a day it would be a big ask to be honest.
Annie
No, I haven't been to Register House but I have done a similar type of search looking for a burial. I had the death certificate but did not know which cemetery nor what denomination so searched through 8 or 9 films before success, It is time consuming but if you really need want the information then it is one possible way.
Andy
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Understandable if doing it yourself but not for someone else as Forfarian mentioned 20 areas & Glasgow is a big city so a days work minimum & cost per day.
Annie
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Understandable if doing it yourself but not for someone else as Forfarian mentioned 20 areas & Glasgow is a big city so a days work minimum & cost per day.
Annie
It is an option but whether it is practical is up to the OP. If they can't do it themselves then they may know someone who can. In my case I waited until I was visiting the UK to search for the burial (in Liverpool) because I knew it would be time consuming even though I have close family living in the area.
Andy
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all of your thoughts - so I have been on SP this morning. I couldn't find the John Connelly that Annie mentioned age two Calton* district. I did see one that was Bellshill, but I looked on a map and it seemed rather a way out from the centre of Glasgow so didn't pay to view. I did however view a John Connnelly age 45 Anderston. However, this was indeed for a man called John Connelly etc.
I also read more information on the SP site which says that any death in Scotland must be registered within 8 days of death. (Which I thought was interesting) and could be helpful...
I wondered the following:
Can I pay for a thorough search (not just a fuzzy name search) by the National Records of Scotland to look more closely for the deaths in Glasgow, month Sept. 1898
What about trying to look at cemetery records? I've done an old Parish reg search on SP with no luck. But the list of burial grounds did not look like a full list. Is it worth contacting local cemeteries in Glasgow? I know it is not the same as a dc, but it may be all I end up with!
If a man say died in one of the hospitals in Glasgow, where would he be buried? I was thinking of making of list of likely hospitals, finding out their reg district and looking more thoroughly at indexes for those districts and possible burial grounds.
Thanks once again for all your thoughts and guidance on this.
CD
*I have found on SP a list of the Glasgow districts with dates and it seems to suggest the Calton district years are 1907-1934
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We're there any addresses on the letters of administration? If he or his son were actually living there he may have been buried in the cemetery nearest to that address. Was he separated from his wife, I'm just wondering whether his body would have been returned to a family burial ground in Ireland, although that may have been too expensive?
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Hi groom,
So sadly, no there was no address given for him on the letters of admon, it just named Glasgow. I have searched the 1891 census just in case any of the family were in Glasgow then. I did not find anything. His son was married in Glasgow (Milton District) in 1894, so I can place his son in Glasgow at that date. Again, not sure if he and wife were separated. I know that a lot of the folk from this particular area in NI (certainly from the farming communities) did come over to England and Scotland for seasonal work. But from the area in NI where they came from many seems to go to (and from) Glasgow.
I'm looking cemeteries at the moment and have drawn up a list of possibles. Do you know if they are online anywhere? I'm just about the email the Cemeteries & Crematoria Registrar in Glasgow about this. I've looked at Memento Mori, which just seems to be headstone MI's and have looked at the index of Deceased online, but they don't seem to include the Glasgow cemeteries/burial grounds.
Are there (Catholic) church microfilms somewhere with parish burials? The Mitchell library? Modified - just on Mitchell website which says these are at the Glasgow City Archives! :)
PS - Just to say they were v. poor. So I would highly doubt John's body returned to NI
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Anything on this site of any use?
http://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/ExploreRecords/Pages/Burial-Lair-and-Cremation-Registers.aspx
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Snap ! Yes :) just checking this out.. However, it guess it means arranging a trip to Glasgow.
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This might seem a tad lame but would it be possible that the record could be transcribed as 'Donnelly' instead of 'Connelly'? ::)
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Hello sage
The name I am looking for is Donnelly. This was tried first as I have had no success finding this name myself using various search methods (ie a fuzzy search) I enlisted help by phoning The National Records of Scotland who have also done a search on this name (and a fuzzy search). This is why it has been suggested I look at potential mis-transcriptions.
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Oh gosh...it really shouldn't be this hard. I hope you crack it eventually. It's a very enthralling mystery. Good luck. :)
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Oh gosh...it really shouldn't be this hard. I hope you crack it eventually. It's a very enthralling mystery. Good luck. :)
I agree, you'd think knowing the exact date of death and a good idea of the place would make it relatively easy wouldn't you!
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I know, I know. It's all so very frustrating.
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His son was married in Glasgow (Milton District) in 1894, so I can place his son in Glasgow at that date. Again, not sure if he and wife were separated.
My apologies cd,
I must have forgot to press the "do the search button" or something?....
However, this is the list of deaths for a John Connelly with "Traditional soundex option" 1898 in the whole of Scotland
1 1898 CONNELL JOHN 62 MILTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/08 0522
2 1898 CONNELL JOHN 66 LISMORE /ARGYLL 525/01 0002
3 1898 CONNELL JOHN PATERSON 25 EASTWOOD /LANARK 562/00 0162
4 1898 CONNELLY JOHN M 2 BELLSHILL /LANARK 625/03 0226
5 1898 CONNELLY JOHN 70 GLENGARRY /INVERNESS 099/01 0006
6 1898 CONNELLY JOHN 0 HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 0919
7 1898 CONNELLY JOHN 66 ST CLEMENT DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/03 0141
8 1898 CONNELLY JOHN 45 ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/10 0622
9 1898 CONNOLLY JOHN 61 KELTON /KIRKCUDBRIGHT 869/00 0050
10 1898 CONNOLLY JOHN 36 KINGHORN /FIFE 439/00 0008
Was John still alive when his son married? If not he would be recorded as "deceased"
Annie
ADDED....I assume you checked no. 1 on the list in Milton?
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These are all the deaths of J* *on*l* registered in Glasgow in 1898.
1 1898 DONALD JANE WILLIAMSON F 58 ST ROLLOX GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/06 0080
2 1898 DONALD JEANIE EADIE F 60 TRADESTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/13 0115
3 1898 DONALDSON JAMES M 60 BLACKFRIARS GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/05 0300
4 1898 DONALDSON JANET LUCAS F 60 KELVIN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/09 0221
5 1898 DONALDSON JOHN WILSON M 52 KELVIN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/09 0699
6 1898 DONNELLY JOHN M 58 DENNISTOUN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/03 1319
7 1898 DONNELLY JOHN M 50 GOVAN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/02 0216
8 1898 MACDONALD JOHN M 59 HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 0364
9 1898 MACDONALD JOHN M 59 PLANTATION GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/01 0208
10 1898 MCCONNELL JOHN M 57 KELVIN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/09 1301
11 1898 MCDONALD JANET DEANS MCLEOD F 50 CATHCART (LANARK) GLASGOW
CITY/LANARK 560/00 0009
12 1898 MCDONALD JOHN M 55 BLYTHSWOOD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/07 0108
13 1898 MCDONALD JOHN M 54 MARYHILL GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/01 0102
14 1898 MCDONALD JOHN M 59 DENNISTOUN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/03 1689
15 1898 MCDONALD JULIA MCARTHUR F 57 BLYTHSWOOD GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/07 0513
16 1898 MCGONIGAL ELIZA JANE MERCER HAWKES F 59 DENNISTOUN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/03 0113
17 1898 O'NEIL JAMES M 60 ST ROLLOX GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/06 0585
18 1898 RONALD JULIA WALKER F 54 PARTICK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/03 0277
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Where did you get the exact death date from,is it possible that someone copied/misread it wrongly?
Have you tried O'Donnell (y) as well as Donnelly. Maybe his first name isn't John,but that's his 2nd.
Carol
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your assistance -
First off here are the ones I have bought & checked:
1898 Connell, John age 62 Milton
1898 Connelly, John age 45 Anderston
1898 Donnelly, John age 49 Johnstone & Erderslie, Renfrew
1898 Donnelly, John age 58 Dennistoun
1898 Donnelly, John age 50 Govan
1899 Donnelly, John age 55 Bridgeton
1897 Donnelly, John age 50 Calton
On son's marriage certificate he is named and not listed as deceased.
I have the exact date from the Letter of Admin on his estate. Up until 2 weeks ago I had only seen a transcribed version. Many Irish wills were destroyed by fire in 1922. I was told mine would not have survived. However, I was recently at the PRONI offices and it was suggested that I did try and see if the LoA had survivied...lo and behold they did. So I have held the original document that gives these details - date and place of death.
Have not tried O'Donnell . Yes, I had also wondered if his first name was not John. But I have never, never seen it recorded otherwise
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There is only 1 entry 1898 for a John (Surname beginning) O'Don in Glasgow City
Annie
ADDED.....Age 49 yrs
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What do you think? Is it worth buying?
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If you type in the info. I gave you, you can then search down the list to find out which area 1st.
It isn't under O'Donnelly so not sure what it's under?
I don't have enough time at this moment to check through different names.
Annie
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Thanks Annie, that's okay I appreciate your help.
I'll have a look at this further
Thanks again.
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Looking good......it's O'Donn
Annie
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What do you think? Is it worth buying?
Compare that with the list I posted, - I searched for *on*l* which would have picked up O'Donnell. There is no John O'Don.... in that list, so the surname of that one can't be O'Donnell. So I'd say no, probably not worth buying.
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It's O'Donnell
Annie
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Okay, so there are two possibles:
1898 John O'Donnell (Blantyre) 57 I just looked at that one (no it's not him)
1898 John Owen O'Donnell (Dennistoun) 49 I'm reluctant to get this one as he has a middle name and he is young than I would expect. :-[
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The fact that it is John O'Donnell, someone other than his son may have been the informant?
I'm not saying this is the 1 but does look a good fit with the age of 49.
Annie
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Okay, so there are two possibles:
1898 John O'Donnell (Blantyre) 57 I just looked at that one (no it's not him)
1898 John Owen O'Donnell (Dennistoun) 49 I'm reluctant to get this one as he has a middle name and he is young than I would expect. :-[
I thought you had said aged 40 - 50 or 50 - 60 ? So not too far out from 50
Annie
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4.5 mls from Milton to Dennistoun so not too far? (7.2 km)
Annie
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John O'Donnell (57) informant was his wife Ann
The other one John Owen O'Donnell aged 49...no not that far off. I guess it is because of the middle name thing. I can buy it then we'll know. As I said this is really last throw of the dice. It's just not adding up now.
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To be honest cd,
I had a man I searched for yrs & was put off by a middle name which turned out to be him.........
the only one left ::)
Annie
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Hi Annie
Just purchased - nope
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Oh dear..........
Something strange going on. He surely has to be there but what other name if John was his middle name.
Clue.......was the son his only child as he was possibly named after himself if not John?
Annie
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No, the son is not John. Herein lies another problem for this family. I have determined that John and his wife had 6 children. I have found 5. So I do not know if the missing child was boy or girl, first, middle or last. However, within the family none of this mob have middle names. However, perhaps I need to try a fuzzy search on Donnelly with no first name specified and see what turns up?
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Well, it's really a last resort but I would think one of his sons would have been named after himself possibly. 2 would be after their grandfathers so you can probably eliminate those 1st?
Annie
ADDED.........John (or whatever name) may have been named after his own father?
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Well, it's really a last resort but I would think one of his sons would have been named after himself possibly. 2 would be after their grandfathers so you can probably eliminate those 1st?
Annie
ADDED.........John (or whatever name) may have been named after his own father?
What about naming patterns, do they help? http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cregan/patterns.htm
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This is the one of the problems I have been having as I have also been trying to work out who John's father is. Without knowing if the missing child is a boy or a girl and which order they would have been placed. I can't really figure out any naming pattern.
I also cannot find anything out about John's wife - and I do mean nothing. So don't know what her father was called.
Just for the record I have no birth or baptism on John as it was pre-civil reg. in NI. No baptism either. I can't find a marriage and finally no death. I'm batting 0/0 for this man. :-\
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Was the son who was in Glasgow, the only member of the family living in Scotland at anytime or were the whole family here at some stage?
Annie
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What was the name of his son's 1st born son? Possibly named after his grandfather John/whoever?
Annie
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I really don't know. I was absolutely astounded when I saw the LoA papers. I had no idea John had ever been to Glasgow. So maybe the whole family went, or perhaps it was just John and his son went over later. Or maybe even John and son went together. It's a real mystery.
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No, no more John's after the one we are looking for. No son's named John either
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Thanks Annie for all your help and assistance with this and also everyone else who has helped out and made suggestions. It is really helpful getting other peoples opinions. I guess I will need to put John back in his folder for awhile now.
Thanks again
CD
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I wonder if he was recorded as Sean on death which is the Irish gaelic for John ???
Annie
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Sadly not.
Annie
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Now wondering why my search for *on*l* failed to find O'Donnell. It should have done.
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Just wondering if you have found his son and family in the 1901 Census? Perhaps, his wife said Glasgow as that's where the son had been but had moved elsewhere? Even now, some areas may have a Glasgow postal address but those living in the areas do not count themselves as living in Glasgow e.g. Barrhead.
I was also wondering about the difference in dates from the date of death until the LoA. I know even now it can take some time for Confirmation to be applied for in Scotland, however, it is relatively uncommon to take 2 years and I wonder if it is uncommon in NI too?
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So this is your chap then?
Administration of the estate of John Donnelly late of Kirley Maghera County Londonderry Farmer who died 15 September 1898 granted at Londonderry to Margaret Donnelly the Widow.
John Donnelly who died 15 September 1898
Date of Grant , 29 March 1900
Registry Londonderry
Effects £3 3s.
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I was also wondering about the difference in dates from the date of death until the LoA. I know even now it can take some time for Confirmation to be applied for in Scotland, however, it is relatively uncommon to take 2 years and I wonder if it is uncommon in NI too?
Not that unusual in Northern Ireland. Sometimes probate was only granted when a family realised they needed to sort out ownership or sale of land, sort out another person's affairs, etc.
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I wonder why they had to apply for probate for an estate as small as 3 guineas? I would have thought the legal fees would come to more than that. Is there a story there?
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I was wondering that as well. I think CD said he was a farmer, so perhaps she needed it to be able to continue farming or to be able to pass the farm onto children. She obviously didn't do it to claim his money!
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You can check the Valuation Revision books (www.proni.gov.uk) to see approx. when the property changed hands.
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Hi everyone
Just been catching up on this thread :) I've had no internet this am and been on to BT for the last 1 1/2 hours!....However I digress.
Yes, Carol has identified my man for everyone. There is more to the story which I have only uncovered. John was a tenant of the Drapers Co. The families on this estate struggled for many, many years with bad harvests and large debts accrewed over not only their lifetime but that of their fathers. By the end of the 1800's the Drapers themselves wanted to pull out of their Irish estates and offered to sell the land to the tenant farmers (on 'favourable' terms) through the LPA (Land Purchase Act) many farmers did indeed purchase their property. I had seen the land xfer on the Valuation books and discovered that the land had xfered to a Rose McLoughlin. I had no idea who she was but a family story had described how a neighbouring farmer had agreed to look after the property when the family left (JD dead, Son 1 to Glasgow, Son 2 to England, widow to live with Son 2). The family never returned.
The family that is on the farm on the 1901 census, and I have found through some serious 'sleuthing' was Roseanne McLaughlin a native of Kirley, she was originally a 'Conway' whose father is also a tenant farmer in Kirley. Roseanne went to the States, married and had children. Her husband had been a nightwatch man in NYC and was found dead and his body floating in the Hudson...after which she and her children returned to Kirley. I find them living on the Donnelly farm in 1901 however by 1911 they are gone. Roseanne and children leaving Ireland to return to the USA in the intervening 10 years.
Having gone to PRONI and having looked at all manner of documents. I have just found out John in fact did buy this land off of the Drapers though the LPA scheme some years prior to his death. The LoA do actually mentioned this...and the fact that the wife had 'just sold the land' in 1900 seems to redeem Roseanne and her family (so not land grabbers after all!). So I think John's wife sold the land to Roseanne McLoughlin (or to Roseanne's father Daniel in 1900) but as JD died without a will I think this is why she needed to go through the system to finalise his estate and more importantly sell the farm.
Hope this may clarify the situation some. I have been working on this family for many years, and now feel I could write a book on the Donnelly's of Kirley. :)
CD
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This is interesting though if it was in Scotland: "If the person died in Scotland, you can register their death at any registration office in Scotland"
Very interesting. However that has not always been the case.
Sec 38 of the Registration (Scotland) Act, 1854 says, "The [informants] shall, within eight days next after the day of such death .... attend personally and give in formation to the Registrar of the parish in which such death occurred ...."
In the manual for Registrars, Vital Registration (1902) it says, "The practical rule is that all Deaths are registered in the parish or district in which they occurred, irrespective of their residence. If there is dubiety as to the place of death, say in the case of a person dying not in a house, that uncertainty is cleared up, generally by the 'Result of Precognition' forwarded in such cases by the Procurator-Fiscal to the Registrar who reports such deaths to the Procurator-Fiscal (Sec 39)."
So at the time of John Donnelly's death it was a requirement of the Act that a death be registered where it occurred.
Edit: forgot I had already answered this point ages ago :-[
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Hi Forfarian,
Thanks for your continued interest! And renewing this thread. After not making any progress with this search I abandoned it, and now am trying to make some inroads for the search of his burial in order to complete some further details for the family history. I think your guidance about registering a death in Scotland is very helpful - particularly the 'within eight days next after the day of such a death". I just can't for the life of me understand how he could have been buried without a dc. :-\
CD
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"was originally a 'Conway' whose father is also a tenant farmer in Kirley"
Now, taking things to extremes maybe but...
If the person who registered the death had a speech impediment...Connolly/Conley could sound like Conway ???
I'm unsure what paperwork would have been needed back then as both my parents died in hospital & I had paperwork from the hospital to take to the registrars with both?
Annie