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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Mollyrobz on Wednesday 04 November 15 17:52 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Could somebody please do a census look up for me? It's for a family named the Underwoods who lived in Great Yarmouth. I'm interested in George Underwood his wife Louisa and there daughter Nellie. I've seen the 1911 census with all three of them together but I'm wondering if there is any more? I want to know if they had any other kids. Nellie also went by Louisa Ellen or Ellen Louisa
Thank you Molly
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Hi Molly,
On FreeBMD there is this birth -
Robert J Underwood
Dec 1914
Yarmouth
Mother's maiden name - Simmons
Vol 4b Page 41
So a possible sibling for Nellie.
Unfortunately we are not able to do 1911 look-ups (RootsChat Policy)
JJ
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Hello JJ,
Thank you it could well be another child as Louisa Underwoods maiden name was Simmons. I'm trying to find out all there children's names so I can buy the birth certificates and see who the witnesses are and to see what they all say for the mothers name as Louisa Simmons is very difficult to trace!
Molly
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Rather than purchasing a birth certificate for one of the children it would be more advisable to purchase the marriage cert of George and Louisa which hopefully would give Louisa's father's name and occupation. Equally there could be witnesses on the marriage cert which may help.
JJ
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Possible death of Louisa -
Louisa Gertrude Underwood
Birth Date - 5 May 1887
Date of Registration - Mar 1974
Age at Death - 86
Yarmouth, Norfolk
Vol 4b Page 1732
Marriage record shows that Louisa's middle name was Gertrude.
JJ
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Hello,
I actually have a copy of the marriage cert for Louisa and Charles george underwood but thank you anyway :) the problem I have is finding a birth for her. I can't find one anywhere ??? I haven't purchased the death cert for her though as I've been told that they rarely have parents names on them
Molly
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Would you like to share with us the details of Louisa's father's name and occupation also the name of witnesses please? Hopefully we could then help you further.
JJ
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From freebmd
William G Underwood mother name Simmonds 1912
Robert James mother name Simmons 1914
Edna May ditto 1920
William E ditto 1923
Betty Jane ditto 1925
Violet M ditto 1928
Harry Joseph ditto 1931
Was George Underwood in the military 1914-1918 or did they move elsewhere ? 7 years is a long gap in births.
From a family tree on ancestry, use caution and double check
States Louisa Gertrude Simmons was born 5 May 1887 Norfolk but gives no parents
Robert James Underwood born 21 September 1914
Edna May Underwood born 11 January 1921, her birth was registered 1920
Betty Jane Underwood born 11 December 1925
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1891 census states a Thomas and Ellen Simmonds has a 1 yr old daughter Louisa born Gt. Yarmouth.
She was the youngest of a number of children and father bc.1840 Gt Yarm., mother Ellen bc.1849 Iniishillen, Ireland.
Think father Thomas was in the army and may have married Ellen in Ireland. He died as Thomas Simmons in Yarmouth in Dec.qtr.1893.
Annette
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FreeREG also has;
GERTRUDE LAOUISE Simmons, Baptised 1 April 1885, St Bartholomew, Brisley, Norfolk
Mother RUTH Simmons
Have more on them.
What is Louisas Fathers name/occp from her Marriage Cert?
Witnesses names?
Trish :)
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Hello everybody,
I will tell you what it says on the marriage cert for her and Charles.
It's says Louisa Gertrude Simmons. She was 20 years old at the time and a spinster, her residence at the time was Gt Yarmouth. Fathers name was James Thomas Simmons, a labourer.
The witnesses where John James Simmons and Kate Lovick.
Molly
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Hello Annette,
I've came across the family that you've mentioned before as they seem like the ONLY likely candidates for parents of Louisa at the moment.
I think the Thomas and Ellen married 1876 in London.
There's bits that match up and bits that don't ???
Molly
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Hi Molly,
I believe that the 1891 census found by Annette being the correct family for Louisa. On Louisa's marriage cert one of the witnesses could be her brother (John James Simmonds).
JJ
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Louisa from 1891 census had brother John bc.1877 Great Warley, Essex which came under Billericay regn. District. A John James Simmons birth regd Mar.1878 Billericay and this appears to be the brother on her marriage certificate.
Annette
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Yes I have always wondered if the family from the 1891 census was them or not.
What do you all make of the births being different though? On her death cert she was born 1887, on her marriage cert a birth of 1889 would be about right and on the 1891 census her birth would've been about 1890? Also on the marriage cert her fathers name was James Thomas?
Molly
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Does anybody know if the Thomas on the 1891 census had his occupation stated? :)
Molly
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Does anybody know if the Thomas on the 1891 census had his occupation stated? :)
Molly
Labourer
JJ
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Thank you JJ, the same as the James Thomas occupation on Louisa's marriage certificate...
Molly
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Yes I have always wondered if the family from the 1891 census was them or not.
What do you all make of the births being different though? On her death cert she was born 1887, on her marriage cert a birth of 1889 would be about right and on the 1891 census her birth would've been about 1890? Also on the marriage cert her fathers name was James Thomas?
Molly
It's not uncommon for families to use middle names or abbreviations on census forms but use their given names for formal documents. It sometimes takes a bit of untangling, at least your James Thomas used both names on the marriage cert, not just James. As for ages it's easy to make an error of a year or 2, it would depend who filled in the census form and whether s/he remembered the exact ages of the whole family.
I've checked FreeBMD though and the most likely birth is Simmons-Gertrude Louisa registered Mitford Norfolk Dec 1884. (Probably the baptism that Trish found.) Do you think she may have lied about her age, especially if she married a younger man? :o
The only other likely births are: Simmons Louisa Lilian M Wisbech Dec 1889 or Simmons Gertrude Norwich March 1890.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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Hello Janfurness,
It was Louisa that put down James Thomas Simmons as her fathers name. I haven't seen a marriage cert for James/Thomas/James Thomas as yet.
What I meant was that the Louisa on the 1891 census was in the house of a THOMAS and Ellen, not a James Thomas.
If any of those births that you've found are for her then that eliminates this family in the 1891 census. I do know that Louisa and Charles named THEIR daughter Louisa Ellen Underwood, perhaps after the mother and gran? But of course, this could just be a big coincidence ??? I don't know which route to take really, I've seen that other people have tried researching this family but it always seems to come to nothing.
Molly
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Re Gertrude Louisa Simmons 1884
1891 she is with her Uncle/Aunt in Cambridgeshire;
Daniel Gould, 36, born Brisley
Louisa Gould, 34, born Brisley
Gertrude L Simmons,6, Neice, born Brisley, Norfolk
Daniel seems to have married Louisa Osborne 1879 Mitford Reg District
Last Census she is with Daniel/Louisa Gould and married ;
Index;
Gertrude BLUNDELL born c 1885 Brisley, Norfolk
1901 she is with them as Gertrude Gould, Daughter.
Havent figured out how she is the Neice or whether they just took her in.
Her Mother Ruth was born c 1867 Walsoken, Norfolk
Parents William/Ruth
Married Charles GOODGER in 1890 Wisbech
Appears on 1891/1901 Census with him.
So I am pretty sure Gertrude Louisa with Parents Thomas/Ellen is yours Molly
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I agree with Trish-the Gertrude Louise 1884/5 birth and baptism is unlikely to be yours, I don't think it's likely that Louise's parents would have got her age wrong when she was only 1! I think the likeliest birth record is Gertrude Simmons Norwich March 1890. The record may not have shown her middle name. Many don't (mine included!), but she may have always been known as Louise.
A possible record for her in 1901, aged 12 is in Yarmouth with Frederick Haggate and wife Nellie. She is described as sister to the head of house but might be Nellie's sister. Nellie was born about 1873 in Chatham, Kent. (As was William Simmons b 1871 on the 1891) Nellie could be another Ellen?
(The transcription is Louisa H Simmons but looking at the original I think it more likely that the census recorder started to write Haggate & corrected it to Simmons)
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Hello Trish and Janfurness,
Firstly Trish, thank you for your contribution to the first Louisa Gertrude, it was very very helpful as I have been questioning her for goodness knows how long! I had to have a sigh of relief when I read what you said as it eliminates one candidate :)
Secondly thank you Janfurness have you actually seen the census record for the Louisa H? It's a record that I've heard of before but not actually seen, if it is infact what you say and the transcriber went to right Haggate but then changed it to Simmons, that could prove to be invaluable :)
This other Louisa that was born in Norwich, does anybody reading this have any info on her? I agree that the Nellie in the census could indeed be another Ellen. Louisa's daughter that married George was also called Louisa Ellen.
Molly
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Possible situation?
Louisa was in the household of Nellie and Frederick Haggate in 1901 and living as a 'sister' of the head, presumably Nellie. Now, this Nellie was born in 1874 I believe in Gt Warley, the same as a few of the others. Thomas and Ellen I think were married 25 December 1876 and on a public member tree on ancestry apparently Thomas was in Bombay until at least 1875 so maybe Nellie wasn't one of his kids? Also I think on the 1911 census it says that the marriage between Thomas and Ellen produced 5 kids and if he was out of the country until 1875 perhaps the oldest children wernt his but from Ellen's past relationships? Maybe the Louisa born 1890 was actually the daughter Nellies on the 1901 census and the Ellen was actually the grandmother?
I hope this all makes sense, my mind was racing as I was trying to type :P
Molly
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If anybody is still interested in this post, could somebody possibly do a look up for me? Apparently Thomas Simmons had a brother named James born in 1843. I'm wondering who he went on to marry or where he was at certain times
Molly
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Is this the James you are looking for?
1851 Census
Great Yarmouth;
Thomas Simmons, 33, Twine Spinner
Mary Ann Simmons, 31
Thomas Simmons, 10
James Simmons, 8
Mary A Simmons, 3
Eliza Simmons, 3 Mo
All born Great Yarmouth
Thomas SIMMONS, Bachelor, Twine Spinner, married Mary LARN, Spinster, Seamstress, 1 Nov 1840, St Nicholas, Great Yarmouth
Parents THOMAS Simmons, SAMUEL Larn, both Labourers
Witnesses, Richard Fleet/James Burman
Baptisms, same Church;
JAMES Summons, 14 Sept 1842,(birth 10 Sept 1842) Fathers Occp Twine Spinner
MARY ANN Simmons, 23 March 1856 (birth 20 May 1847), Fathers Occp Rope Maker
Both have Parents as THOMAS/MARY
I was looking for Baptsism to see if Thomas c 1840 was Baptised as Thomas John/John Thomas.
Cant find any other Baptisms on FreeREG for Thomas/Marys Children..
Aaah;
THOMAS Larn Baptised same Church, 31 Aug 1840 (birth 22 Aug 1840, Mother MARY Larn
So born before Nov Marriage.
There is also a JANE SIMMONS Larn birth/death Reg 1839 Great Yarmouth on FreeBMD
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James SIMMONS age 25, Bachelor, Fisherman, married Elizabeth H LEGGETT, Spinster, 28 Aprril 1867, St Nicholas
Parents; THOMAS Simmons, Twine Spinner and JOHN Leggett, Weaver
My Leggetts are from Yarmouth!
1871 James Simmons, 27, Married, is a Mate on a Vessel in Lincolnshire, born c 1844 Yarmouth, Norfolk
1891 in Great Yarmouth we have;
James Semmons, 50, Sea Sailor
Elizabeth Semmons, 51, Wife, Silk Weaver
Elizabeth Semmons, 22, Daug (should be WITHERS, Mar)
Frederick Semmons, 13, Son
Alfred Semmons, 11, Son
Josiah Semmons, 9, Son
Thomas Withers, 25, Son in Law, Sea Sailor
Thomas Withers, 1, Grandson
1881, Elizabeth with Children;
Elizabeth Simmons, 38, Mar, Silk Weaver
Louisa Simmons, 14
Elizabeth Simmons, 12
Phoebe Simmons, 10
James Simmons, 6
Frederick Simmons, 4
Alfred Simmons, 1
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Thomas SIMMONS
England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005
1876 Romford, Essex to Ellen WALKER
So married Essex not London which fits where they were living in 1881
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Hello Trish,
Thank you for this info, I believe it's the right person :)
Sadly none of it brings me any closer to making a genuine connection. I just can't seem to find a birth certificate for Louisa anywhere ???
What I can't understand is this, if Louisa's dad WAS named James Thomas surely they wouldn't have a brother named Thomas or James (depending on which one that you're looking at!) also I think The Thomas Simmons in question would've passed away when Louisa was young, so she could've gotten his name wrong but if it was indeed John James (her older brother) who was a witness to her marriage, he would've known his dad by the name Thomas and surely would've corrected her ???
I don't know...this is all giving me such a headache. I just want that connection...perhaps I'll never find it :(
Molly
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Likely death of Thomas Simmons -1893 aged 53.
I really wouldn't worry too much about the name that Louisa gave her father on her marriage certificate- she was probably just wrong -or the registrar made a mistake. (My great grandmother's marriage certificate gave her the wrong christian name & her right name as her middle name. Everything else fits & her correct name was on the baptism of all 15 of their children.)
I was wrong about Gertrude in Norwich being a possible- she died the same year as her birth. :(
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Helle Janfurness,
Thank you for your reply. Is there any other route you think that I could possibly go to try and get definitive proof? I suppose buying a few of the kids birth certificates and seeing who the witnesses are? What did you mean her name was correct on the births? You mean Louisa?
Also if it is right, how easy is it to find Irish records, I believe Ellen Walker was her name from a first marriage, her birth name was Mary Ellen Gordon. So I have something to go off :)
Molly
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Sorry if I confused you Mollyrobz- I just meant that mistakes on marriage records can be made -and gave you the example of my gg grandmother whose name was wrong on her marriage record. Because all the other evidence was there -census and baptisms- I was able to conclude that it was a mistake on that one record.
If you are happy that your other records for Louisa are correct I shouldn't worry too much about her father being recorded as James Thomas not just Thomas. It might be a simple error made by the registrar. Her father was dead-perhaps Uncle James gave her away and the registrar got confused.
I don't know much about Irish records, but if you post a request on the Rootschat Ireland board I'm sure someone will be able to help you with Ellen. Good luck :)
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Some irish records online here:
http://www.nli.ie/
click onto Catholic Parish Registers at NLI (on the left in blue)
then type in the parish of interest
I see you have Inishillen as Ellen's birth place but I can't see an Inishillen. I wonder, Enniskillen perhaps!
Chris
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To be honest I'm not confident with it at all! ;D the only info I really have is her name on her marriage cert with a witness named John James Simmons and some census records of a Louisa that kind of matches the dates of my louisa (until you get to her death cert) and this Louisa had a brother named John Simmons. I need a birth certificate, I can deal with the death cert being a bit out on the birth date as nobody might not of known her actual age! That's not unusual. I don't know, I may put a tack in it for now :)
Molly