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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Somerset => England => Somerset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: bitzar on Thursday 05 November 15 09:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi. I've searched and searched and cant find this one. I'm looking for this family on the 1841 census for Somerset.
STONE, James (Husband)
STONE, Jane (Wife) - about 30. Born Wells, Somerset.
STONE, Henry (son) - aged 4 born Bath, somerset.
STONE, James (son) - aged 3 born somerset. christened Bedminster.
STONE, Mary Jane or Jane (daughter) - aged under 1 born somerset. christened Bedminster.
I'm convinced STONE has been transcribed wrongly. There could older older children.
Regards, Steven.
Melbourne, Australia.
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HO107/376/8 folio 12 page 18
Rock Buildings, West Street, Bedminster
John Stone - 40 - coal miner
Jane - 30
John - 5
Henry - 4
Transcribed on Ancestry as Stone ;D ;D
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Yeah sorry... Forgot to say James was a Butcher. Plus where are James and Mary Jane?
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Sorry I didn't read your initial post correctly :-[
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Hello,
Do you have them in later censuses?
I thought I had Jane and some children but they do not quite fit!
Heywood
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Transcribed as Stane
1841 376 /39/14
James is an inn keeper.
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Heywood, you're a legend! (Although there is another Henry Stane b. Bedminster on a 1891 census which cannot be mime. Could this be the same Henry STANE?!). James Jr must of died. I'll try to find a death.
I have found Jane STONE (wife), widow; and son, Henry STONE, 14, at Clifton Gloucestershire in 1851. I cannot find her other children, inc James George STONE b 1843 or where they were at. Although I have found them again in 1861. ARGHHHHH!
Regards and so much thanks, Steven.
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Do you have Jane in 1861 with children Jane, James and Eliza?
1861 1706/33/21 Is that her?
Would this be Eliza from 1861?
1851 1841/428/11
Eliza Maria Stone 7 yrs born Bedminster. She is a visitor with a Fry family in Wiltshire.
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Looks good for Eliza in 1851 Census
Marriage;
12 March 1833, Walcot - St Swithin, Bath, Somerset
James STONE
Jane FRY
Bachelor/Spinster
(FreeREG)
Baptism same Church;
HENRY, 30 Oct 1836 (James/Jane)
(FreeREG)
Trish :)
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Could this be James c 1843 in 1851 Census?
1851 Census
Walcot, Somerset
HO107/1943/91/17
James Stone, 68, Head, Mar, Butcher
Maria Stone, 40, Wife, Mar
Mary Stone, 36, Daug, Unm, Milliner
William Stone, 33, Son, Unm, Butcher
Eliza Stone,36 Daug, Unm, Milliner
JAMES Stone, 7, Grandson, Visitor, born Bedminster; Bristol****
Frederick Stone, 3, Boarder, Visitor
Maria must be a second Wife.
Baptisms;
St James, Bath;
JAMES, 20 July 1806
St Michael, Bath;
MARIA, 9 Sept 1810
MARY, 27 Feb 1814, abode Wlacot St, Fathers occp Butcher
Walcot - St Mary's Chapel, Bath
JOSEPH, 11 Feb 1816
WILLIAM, 1 June 1817
ELIZA, 14 March 1819
FANNY, 20 July 1820
GEORGE, 28 July 1822
All to JAMES/MARY Stone
Last 5 have extra info; abode Kingsmead St, Fathers Occp Butcher
1841 we have in Kingsmead St;
James Stone, 55, Butcher
William Stone, 20
Eliza Stone, 20
Frederick from 1851 Census may be;
Frederick George Stone Son of GEORGE/ELLEN Christened 2 April 1848
Weston, Somerset
Not positive about this but worth noting
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With regard to George Fry who Eliza Maria is staying with in 1851 it is likely he is her Uncle;
1861/1871 his is born c 1805/1806 Wells
GEORGE Fry Christened 27 Aug 1805, St. Cuthbert's, Wells, Somerset
Parents JOHN/JANE
+*** JANE Fry to same Parents, same Church, 15 Sept 1811
Others;
HENRY 1806
FREDERICK 1809
(F/S.Org)
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Maria must be a second Wife.
I think it's quite likely she's the daughter born in 1810 and the "Wife" is a mistake by the enumarator.
David
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Blimey... Righto, Im not sure where to start! Firstly THANKYOU.
To Heywood. Yes you are correct with the 1861 census and the 1851 census. FRY are her Uncle and Aunt.
To Trish. That is definitely James and Jane's marriage that I couldn't find and also Henry's baptism that I couldn't find. Trish, I'm fairly confident that your work is actually spot on. The correct trade, ages, and even names (All of Henry STONES' b.1836 children's names are the same as his Uncles and Aunts).
To David. You're prob correct about Maria. Totally fits the Baptisms that Trish found.
Has anyone noticed the Death of James STONE b.1806 between 1842 - 1851?
I'm assuming you're all in the UK, if there is anything you need from Australia, let me know.
Regards, Steven.
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Has anyone noticed the Death of James STONE b.1806 between 1842 - 1851?
There are of course lots of James Stones who died in that period, but the one registered in the first quarter of 1851 in Bedminster looks a very good bet. Not only is it the only one in the right area but the date also fits well. The way all the children except the eldest are scattered in the 1851 census could be because they were sent to stay with relatives during their father's last illness or after his death.
As I said in one of your other threads, I'm related to the Wells FRY family, through one of Jane's cousins. I have a tree on Ancestry with quite a lot about them. If you haven't already found it PM me your username and I'll send you an invitation. (Hartley family tree)
Unlike Jane's branch, my branch did not move to the Bath area in the 19th century, but my mother did and I live near Bath now. I have another tree exploring various families that lived in my home village and nearby. It includes a few STONEs, including the elder James Stone's parents, Abraham and Mary. James died in 1862 and can be found in the 1861 census - Ancestry has the surname as Stane again. There he gives his birthplace as Swainswick, confirming the link. (Woolley families)
David
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Hi David,
Yes I think you are correct;
Quote
"think it's quite likely she's the daughter born in 1810 and the "Wife" is a mistake by the enumarator."
Hi Steven,
I'm in Sydney :)
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Any thoughts on this Frederick STONE bc1848 in Weston who keeps on appearing on census living with his grandfather?! Why would he be living with his grandfather when his parents are alive with other children? OR is this another Frederick, illegitimate son of Eliza STONE, both born at Weston, Bath?!
Regards as usual, Steven.
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Its not unusual for Children to live/be with their Grandparents on Census. Usually for economic reasons or to help look after the Grandparents.
As to the other Frederick I will have to look for him.
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Sorry, I think I'm being cryptic! Maybe this Frederick IS the illegitimate son of Eliza (just a thought) because it seems they are nearly always together with his grandfather and her father. OR I could be over thinking it.
Steven
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Not only was Fred baptised by George and Ellen, his birth was also officially registered by them. I suppose that does not completely rule out his mother being Eliza, but it makes it unlikely.
(Bath has its own BMD site - http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/ - which has the advantage over FreeBMD that it gives the mother's maiden name for birth registrations. The entry for Fred shows Honeywell, which was George's wife's maiden name.
Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1848
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
STONE Frederick George Batheaston Bath HONEYWELL BEA/5/135 )
David
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Thanks David
I've also stalked you on ancestry. Amanda Stone, the friend I'm researching for, is coming over shortly for a drink and preview. We were actually in Bath together last year BEFORE she knew where her roots, so to speak, were from! Thanks again for your continued assistance Amanda's cousin.
Regard, Steven.
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Hi team
Any idea's where these Stone's may be buried? and monuments?
Regards, Steven.
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The only one I can help you with is Abraham, grandfather of the James who married Jane Fry. He farmed in Tadwick which is a hamlet in the parish of Swainswick. Swainswick is a long thin parish and his farm was actually nearer to the church in Langridge and that is where he was buried, in 1823. I have a copy of an old record of the gravestones there, it shows two Stone graves:
43.
To the Memory of
ABRAHAM STONE
of the City of Bath who died March 30th 1823
aged 68 years.
Also of
GEORGE
his son who died Feb. 27th, 1823.
44.
In Memory of
JOHN STONE
who died 2nd Feb. 1875, aged 87 years.
Late of the 32nd regt., was at the Battles
of Copenhagen 1807, Roleia, Salamanca,
Nive, Vimiara, Pyrenees, Orthos, Corunna,
Nivelle and Toulouse.
Also in loving memory of
FANNY
widow of the above John STONE who died Jan. 17th
1891, aged 85 years.
I assume Abraham was living with his son in his old age and that's why he's recorded as from Bath.
I don't know anything about John the soldier. Abraham had a son John but he was baptised in 1792 so unless he was baptised late or the age on the grave is wrong he's not the same John. (Just noticed John was baptised at the Abbey, so maybe Abraham moved to Bath earlier than I thought.)
Most of the old graves at Langridge are now illegible (the record is from 100 years ago) so there is little hope of finding Abraham's grave now.
David
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Hi David
That info is AMAZING!!! You know, I think that John Stone is the son because the age for his wife Fanny fits. My records show she was younger and born c.1807. From what you have written its 1806, a good match. It's possible that John was baptised later I suppose because I think he older brother was born c.1786.
David, is that church St. Mary Magdalene's?
Regards, Steven.
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I'm afraid my memory let me down a little with these Stones. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Abraham was a farmer. From his children's baptisms he and his wife appear to have lived in Swainswick, Tadwick, Walcot and central Bath, but I don't know his occupation. His son William was a farmer, in Langridge, and perhaps that's why Abraham was buried there.
A Mary Stone was buried at Woolley in 1791. I think it possible that she was Abraham's wife, although she would be considerably older than him. There is an entry for her in a list of Woolley MIs recorded in the 1970s, but I can't find the grave there now. (If the grave was barely legible when recorded, then maybe the age is wrong anyway.)
66.
Here lieth the body of
MARY STONE late of this parish
who died Jan 26 1791 aged 49
I've looked at John Stone a bit more and I agree he must be Abraham and Mary's son.
Yes, the Langridge parish church is dedicated to St Mary Magdalene.
David
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Hi David.
I've also found another possible Mary Stone this Woolley MI could be. Abraham 1855's aunt. She was baptised 1840 and perhaps was unmarried?!
Do you know if there is a list of MI's for Cold Ashton and Marshfield, Gloucestershire?! It seems the Stone's may be been gradually making their way south! I've found a 1743 will for Abraham c1700 listing his wife and children who I had kind of already guessed anyway.
Regards, Steven
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Yes, that aunt Mary is a distinct possibility. I didn't know about her. I hadn't seen the will before, I don't think Ancestry had those Gloucestershire records when I looked before.
I'd never heard of Bix in Marshfield before either. I think it must be what is now called Beeks Farm, about 2 miles SW of Marshfield village, near the boundaries with Cold Ashton and St Catherine (Somerset) parishes.
As for MIs, there is an old book called 'Historical, Monumental and Genealogical Collections relative to the county of Gloucester' by Ralph Bigland, which I know has MIs from Cold Ashton and it may have Marshfield as well, but I do not have a copy. There's a fuller description here
http://www.parishchest.com/gloucestershire_-_bigland__P8826
They sell a CD of the original version which only covers parishes from A - N. You may be able to get it cheaper from eBay or similar, or view it on microfilm at a Family History Centre.
David
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David
Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge.
I couldn't see this 'Bix' either! It seems Beek's Farm has a long history but I can't see a Abraham Stone in it, even though he states he is a Yeoman. I can find mention of owners before and after him though. There is supposedly a map of 1744 showing a crude pic of Beek Mansion, now no longer standing. Do you think Abraham was maybe near Beek's and not actually at Beek's?! I also noticed how close Beek's is to Swainswick, etc.
I also noticed on Frances' death entry in 1771 for Cold Ashton, that she was late of Somersetshire. I guess it all fits. I suppose she was living with one of her children.
David I know this isn't 'your lot', so thanks again.
Regards, Steven.... and Amanda Stone.
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Yeoman usually didn't actually own their land, just had a long-term lease. I'd never heard of Beek Mansion before. It could well be that the landowner lived there and Abraham at the farm. There was also a Beeks Mill and quite possibly other houses down there that are gone now.
It just occurred to me that you could ask about the Cold Ashton MIs in the Gloucestershire Lookup Request section. There's a good chance that someone there has a copy of Bigland.
David
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David
I didn't actually know what a Yeoman was so when I looked it up it said 'a farmer who owns his own land' compared to one who just farmed it?!
It seems Beek's Cottages now stand where the Mansion once was.
I will ask for a look up on roots chat regarding Cold Ashton.
Regards, Steven.
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I didn't actually know what a Yeoman was so when I looked it up it said 'a farmer who owns his own land' compared to one who just farmed it?!
It's often stated that way, but the evidence is against it. I've seen many wills of Yeomen and, although I haven't kept count, I think a large majority of them had leasehold or copyhold land, not freehold. If they had the freehold they usually called themselves Gentlemen. The key factor was that their interest in the land outlived them and so they needed a will to arrange the succession. Yeoman families often occupied a farm for many generations and treated it as if it was all theirs, even building a new house if they were doing well, but all along they were paying an annual rent to the landowner, and periodically having to renew the lease.
This system of land tenure died out in the 19th century. Some farmers managed to buy their land outright but many became annual tenants. They could be kicked out with just a year's notice.
David
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David
From memory, Abraham's will doesn't mention anything about land, only his livestock, grains, goods, and chattels.
On another note. David, do you know when Jane Stone (nee Fry) died. I supposed it was in Bedminster.
Regards, Steven.
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My apologies, David for this :'( Are you telling us that all the dictionaries are wrong?
Collins English Dictionary - a man who farmed his own land.
Concise Oxford Dictionary - a person qualified by possessing free land of 40/- annual value and who can serve on juries and vote for a Knight of the Shire ......
A Dictionary of Old Trades, Titles and Occupations - farmer who farmed his own lands. He could serve on juries and had a vote. ...
Oxford Dictionary - a man holding and cultivating a small landed estate, a free holder.
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My apologies, David for this :'( Are you telling us that all the dictionaries are wrong?
Certainly potentially misleading. It depends what they mean by "own", or what the reader thinks they mean. The wikipedia gives a more carefully worded definition, "In the late 14th to 18th centuries, yeomen were farmers who owned land (freehold, leasehold or copyhold)". In wills of yeomen I've seen, leasehold seems to be more common that freehold.
In the case of Abraham Stone, that would explain how he could be a yeoman but not appear on the list of owners of his farm. Steven has observed that he doesn't actually mention land at all in his will, although he obviously farms as he does specify his livestock, crops and machinery. I don't know how that can be but I can think of a couple of possibilities. One would be that he had already given his estate (whether leasehold or freehold) to his successor. (In which case I suppose he would really be an ex-yeoman :) .) Another would be that it was entailed in some way and he had no say in the succession.
David
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On another note. David, do you know when Jane Stone (nee Fry) died. I supposed it was in Bedminster.
I'm afraid not. I can't see any obvious candidates, for death or remarriage.
David
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Hello David
Wow, I'd forgotten how spectacular the Bath area was. Stunning countryside!
So Abraham Stone's grave at Langridge from 1823 is still standing and readable. It's a little bent over protecting it from the weather luckily. I'm assuming the grave beside it is John Stone, which is unreadable. I'm assuming this because the headstones are exactly the same shape. On Abrahams's headstone it has a left and right side. On the left side reads Abraham with son George underneath. On the right side is blank. I would probably assume his wife Mary is also interred there but no one ever got around to having her name added. The graves are located beside all the Powney graves which many are in surprisingly good condition. I saw Solomon there too.
Regards, Steven
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I've lived here all my life so I do tend to take it for granted. But it certainly looking good at the moment, with the fresh spring colours and the may just coming out.
That's great that Abraham's grave is still legible. All I could remember from the last time I looked around the graveyard was that most of the stones weren't.
If you stand in front of the church door and look straight across the valley there's a combe on the other side where a side stream comes down. The upper section on the right is wooded - called Bamfield's Wood on some maps but locally it's known as Abraham's Garden. The 1839 tithe map attaches that name to the lower half of the wood, which was then mostly cleared, some pasture and a small area of garden. It was part of the farm occupied by your Abraham's son William. I have no other information, but can't help wondering if the name comes from your ancestor. Did he take up gardening in his old age?
David
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Hello David
Thanks for your wealth of knowledge and all your assistance. I might put this down for a little while but then again I probably won't.
Thanks and regards
Steven.
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David
Well..... Me putting it down didn't last long did it!!! ;D
Do you know anything of John Stone d.1875 military history?! From what has been transcribed from his headstone I am referring to.
Regards, Steven.
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Sorry, I don't know any more about him.
David
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Thanks David. I might put it to the military thread.
Steven.