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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cymraeg - Welsh Language => Topic started by: jones9 on Thursday 05 November 15 19:30 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me to read this pedigree - the full file is too big to upload so this is a small (and I think the main) section of a larger pedigree which gives other branches, and finding it quite a struggle to read let alone understand as I don't know any Welsh!!
Thanks in advance!!
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I can't help with a translation,but given your other threads the following may be of interest
The will of Nathaniel Jones of Llandrillo(?) 1683 at NLW
The following speculation that mentions Humffre ap Hugh Gwyn and contains some possibly familiar references -Vaerdre,Ty yn y Llechwedd(same Llechwedd as your interest?)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WLS-MERIONETHSHIRE/2002-07/1026144118
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
Thank you for your reply and for pointing out this detail about Llechwedd, etc in Nathaniel Jones' will - which strengthens my suspicion below:
His son, Maurice who dies in the next year mentions his cousin John Jones Ty Ucha, Tyfos. This implies that John is not using patronymics yet as his/Maurice/Nathaniel's family are still Joneses for at least 2 generations going backwards. Nathaniel also has a daughter called Judith so even though John Jones is a common name, I was looking into the possibility that the John Jones who d. 1705 (grandfather of Foulke) in the previous post may be the same man - especially since he has a daughter called Judith too and they are both from similar property-owning backgrounds. I was hoping this pedigree would give more of Nathaniel's family and prove or disprove my theory but unfortunately and unusually(?) the whole thing - all 3 pages - appears to be just his wife's family. I'm not 100% sure as its very difficult to read (hence this post) but that's what it looks like so far - this may be perhaps because it is 'Nathaniel Jones, Hendwr' and the Hendwr estate was inherited through his wife - Humffrie Gwyn etc are his wife's relatives who are descended from Owain Brogyntyn.
So I'm stuck as to where to look next to find out more about the Jones family which I'm researching!
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I don't know whether this is relevant,but there appears to be a damaged document dated 1699 relating to a Nathanael(sic)) Jones of Landrillo.I don't think it is available online at NLW,but possibly at The National Archives,Kew(though this may involve a fee)
Regards
Roger
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More speculation based on possible coincidences.
I wonder if Ty Ucha,Tyfos is synonymous with Ty Ucha,Gwyddelwern.
There is an 1829 will for John Lewis Jones of Ty Ucha ,Gwyddelwern,who looks like the husband of Catherine(of Llechwedd) who you have as of Clawdd Ponken.The will gives his wife as Catherine and they have a daughter Dorothy.I have often wondered about a connection with Gwyddelwern,as the nearest candidate marriage I could find to the birth dates of the "Llechwedd" children was of John Jones and Dorothy Williams in Gwyddelwern in 1764(and I can never find Gwyddelwern baptisms).
To follow the speculation through there is a will of Peter Jones of Ty Ucha,Gwyddelwern in 1786 in which he nominates sons,John,Edward and Thomas(familiar?),and daughters Elizabeth,Margaret,Jane.I,mm not sure when Peter was born,but there is an 1834 marriage of Peter Jones,Gwyddelwern at Llandrillo,1834 to a Mary Edwards.The timing is right for John Jones of Llechwedd to be his son.
Regards
Roger
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To add to the speculation on John Lewis Jones:-
There is a Daniel Lewis Jones,vicar of Gwyddelwern in 1829 who succeeds a John Jones(who dies 1829,not a good year for John Jones(es) viz. Llechwedd!)
This Daniel Lewis Jones given born circa 1803,Llanarth,Cardiganshire in the censuses,is consistent with an alumni record for Oxford University as a son of John of Llanarth.Perhaps son succeeded father and John Lewis Jones was of this family.
Regards
Roger
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Clergy Database
http://db.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp
I checked for John Jones and Daniel Lewis Jones. From drop down menus, "Diocese = St Asaph; Location = Gwyddelwern".
These records sometimes include info re family links etc - but very little in this instance.
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The Cambrian 16 Feb 1805
"Poor Curates - The following ten poor curates were on the 18th ult elected by the Corporation of the Sons of the Clergy to receive Mr Stoke's donation of £10 each for the present year -
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John Jones, Curate of Gwyddelwern, Merionethshire, aged 61, 4 children, income £32".
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Roger,
Thanks for your replies and also those on the other post which I had been meaning to respond to, but will do so here for ease.
This information about John Lewis Jones, and also John Lewis (nephew of Robert Evans) in the previous post is interesting and I will look into this. I am pretty certain however that the father of John Jones, Llechwedd (husband of Dorothy) was John (b.1709, brother of Foulke), son of Thomas Jones and Elizabeth Foulkes - his wife is Blanche Edwards, and John Jones, Llechwedd, has a granddaughter Blanche also. The will of Foulk Morgan leaving his lands to Elizabeth Foulkes makes me of course wonder if it is the same woman as the wife of Thomas Jones - they marry though in 1703, and the first child I can find is John in 1709, and the only other Foulke in 1715, so I wonder if they had other children baptised in another parish.
I am still trying to find any information proving that John Jones (d.1705), is the same as the John Jones, Ty Ucha, Tyfos, cousin of Maurice Jones, and nephew of Nathaniel Jones, and grandson of Maurice Jones, which is proving difficult.
I have found a few pieces about a Moris Jones (I estimate he'd be born around 1600), roughly in the same period at the NLW catalogue: - one of which (which I can't locate now) I'm pretty sure mentions him in a deed with John Foulkes.
Finally, there is another Jones/foulke family I am looking at to see if they are in any way related to the one I am tracing:
Ellen Foulkes, is the daughter and heiress of John Foulkes, Cilan (d.1663, who again is descended from Owain Brogyntyn) and Catherine Meyrick (d.1677). She marries Gabriel Jones and has children: Watkin Jones (d. 1682), Catherine Jones (d.1682), Jane (who marries John Evans, Dinan), and Mary (b. 1662), marries John Lloyd. I think Gabriel Jones may have had an aunt Gwen ferch Maurice whose will is (1674, Llandrillo) - I wonder if she is a daughter of Maurice Jones (father of Nathaniel and grandfather of John). Mary Powell (d.1681) seems to be related in some way, as has a grandson Watkin Jones, though doesn't appear to match up exactly.
hanes teulu,
Thank you for pointing out this - a useful resource!
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I am trying to distinguish possible Ty Ucha(f)s - a very common name.
Ty Ucha,Tyfos is likely to be the one close to Llandrillo as these properties form a sort of arc near there
Tyfos,Hendwr,Ty Uchaf,Moel is y Coedwig,Llechwedd,Garthian
However,there is a Ty Ucha,close to Plas Adda,which is more likely to be described as Gwyddelwern.
It feels like your various threads are in here somewhere.
Regards
Roger
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The concentration of these properties makes this likely.
One very significant piece of information I had forgot to mention is that towards the end of the will of John Jones (d. 1705) he mentions 'my nephew David Lloyd, Esquire' - the only such person in Llandrillo at that time was David Lloyd of Hendwr, who was a grandson of Nathaniel Jones, and inherited the Hendwr estate after both Nathaniel and Maurice Jones, his only son, died within the same year.
David Lloyd was born in 1668 and was the son of Susannah Jones (Nathaniel's daughter) and Thomas Lloyd, Tyfos - I have been unable to locate how exactly John Jones is his uncle!!
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Perhaps Mary Powell is aka Mary ap Howell(Jones?)
Regards
Roger
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Mary Powell is given as of Garthiaen in her will of 1681.Phillippe Jones,will of 1739,is also of Garthiaen.Isn't he the son of John Jones(1705)?
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
You are quite correct - Having looked at this again, I now think that Mary Powell must be John Jones' mother (his nephew is an Evan Ellis and an Evan Ellis is the son of Martha Jones, John's sister from Mary Powell's will). I wonder what her husband's name was?
Foulk Morgan d.1693 was of course of Garthian also, so I wondered if there was a further connecton here. He mentions in his will John Lloyd of Cilan, with sons Foulke Lloyd and John Lloyd - their mother was Mary Jones, daughter of Gabriel Jones and brother to Watkin Jones. The names here are familiar as again Mary Powell has a grandson Watkin, though the parish records indicate this is a different man, son of Henry Jones and Jannet Wynn.
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I have yet to look at Philip's will, but in the parish registers, the only burial for Philip Jones around 1739 in Llandrillo is 'Philip s/o John Evan Harry, Garthian' - this seems unusual as I thought father's name was only given on infant children....though if it is him then the names would make sense (John Jones' eldest son was Evan though died in infancy)
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The last was posted in haste and have since found that it is indeed an unrelated burial.
Maurice Jones, Llandrillo, is mentioned in connection with John Ffoulkes, Cilan, in several documents at the NLW, a few of which mention Garthiaen (e.g. fine levied 27 August 1649)
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A quick reading of the will of Phillippe(sic) shows he is the correct person naming brother Thomas and sisters Judith and Allis.His wife I think is Elizabeth Morris and he names a brother in law William David.I think there was a William David named in the John Jones(1705) will
Regards
Roger
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William David was Alice/Ales's husband.
I notice that Philip Jones' will mentions that he is owed money from the Hendwr estate which makes John Jones being Nathaniel's nephew more likely!
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There are plenty of holes in this,and I'm not sure of the relationships,but:-
Could the will for Maurice Jones that you have attributed to Nathaniel's son,be the will of a brother?
Would this make any more sense of the relationships?There is a document of 1649 referencing Maurice Jones,gent,of Llandrillo,and I will try to copy a short link..Perhaps he is father of both?(or the subject of the will himself??)
The main reason I suspect this is because I have found a will of 1710 for Maurice Jones,vicar of Llanegryn,Merioneth and an alumni record for Jesus College,Oxford(typical college for clergy) for a Maurice Jones,son of Nath.,of "Hendo,Merv" which I interpret as Hendwr,Merioneth),gent,matric.1673-4 aged 19,who could be synonymous with the vicar of Llanegryn.
Regards
Roger
Added link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ggj/
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Perhaps the Maurice Jones of the will,who you thought was the son of Nathaniel,is a direct relation of John Jones as I seem to remember somewhere(!),there is a reference to Maurice Jones,who is a cousin of a Maurice Jones.If he was a brother they could both have David Lloyd as a nephew(?)I could however just be losing the plot a little!
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
I still think the will of Maurice Jones, d. 1684 is the son of Nathaniel. He mentions a sister Rebecca Jones - Nathaniel had a daughter Rebecca, etc. - also I think his widow Jane Evans d. 1687, Oswestry (bond at Llandrillo).
On the clerical theme, I notice there is a matriculation on 20th November 1650 at Magdalen Hall, Cambridge for Nathaniel Jones "cler.fil." (clerici filius(?) - 'son of a cleric') - perhaps Maurice Jones (Nathaniel's father) was a clergyman, if it is the same man - Nathaniel doesn't seem to be a common name?
Another line I have tried to look into is that as well as John Jones, Maurice Jones (d. 1684, Hendwr) refers to his cousins John Maesmore of Maesmore and Dorothy Maesmore - I thought this would be an easier family to trace than Jones but can't find any connection to the Joneses of Llandrillo.
It's still very confusing how David Lloyd is a nephew of both Maurice and John Jones....you may be right about them being brothers but it doesn't seem to fit in my mind...
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I wonder if John and Dorothy Maesmore are really John and Dorothy Jones of Maesmor(e) and there has been transference of the place name or use of a familiar or colloquial name.
There is a Maesmor(e)(Hall) at Maerdy,west of Corwen,and maybe it is possible that a marriage listed under Gwyddelwern could be relevant(John Jones/Dorothy Williams 1764)
This site has some interesting references to the property,including the surname Maurice(patronymic?) and a line from Owain Brogyntyn.
http://humphrysfamilytree.com/Kerr/lloyd.html
Regards
Roger
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Re. interpreting/translating the extract posted, it relates to the pedigree/lineage of Nathaniel's wife (Mary) - 1st word = "gwraig/wife".
The final line in the extract reads "... ap Osborn ap gwyddelig ("Fitzgerald" written below) Iarll Desmnond" ie. "son of Osborn Fitzgerald Earl of Desmond" (the word crossed out means "Irish").
Grateful to google books "A display of Herauldry, ..." John Davies, Llansilin, 1716 (pages 57/58) for the clues!!
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John & Dorothy Maesmore are referenced in the following:-
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=d_star&id=I2711
As you say,no obvious connection.
Regards
Roger
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Just to confirm -
Looking for the pedigree/lineage Nathaniel Jones, High Sheriff of Merionethshire, 1673 - think I've seen somewhere deputy Coroner 1671?
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Thank you both for your replies.
It looks best to leave the Maesmore connection for now as I can find nothing conclusive.
I looked at the will of John David, d. 1730, Faerdref Ucha (perhaps a brother to William David John, the son-in-law of John and Gwen Jones), and he mentions his cousin Elizabeth ffoulkes and her children 'John Jones, ffoulke Jones, Thomas Jones, Philip Jones, Robert Jones, Mary Jones, Catherine Jones', by husband Thomas Jones, Ty Ucha. In the parish records this is Ty Ucha, Faerdref. His father John Jones (d. 1705) is given as of Faerdref - I think he must be the cousin then of Maurice Jones, who had referred to a John Jones, Ty Ucha, Tyfos....perhaps the two townships are nearby and linked (I can find no boundaries for where Faerdref is supposed to be sited within the parish).
Also, this gives the names of several more children which I did not know about, and I wonder if either of them are the father of either a Rowland Jones, or Griffith Jones. Rowland, as I have mentioned was parish clerk before Thomas, and as this seems to have been almost a hereditary office, I have often wondered if Rowland was a relation - there's nothing likely in the Llandrillo parish records however. Likewise a Griffith Jones is shown as living at Plas Adda when he died in 1770, so I wonder if he was a relation.
I cannot establish exactly how John David is a cousin of Elizabeth ffoulkes, and whether he is perhaps also a relation to Thomas (both of Faerdref). Elizabeth as you noted previously was the daughter of Foulke Morgan and Catherine ferch Thomas. I have a feeling Foulke Morgan is somehow related to the John Foulkes of Cilan whose daughter married Ellen Foulkes, Gabriel Jones, and perhaps related to the Joneses in some way.
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Had you seen
http://datingoldwelshhouses.co.uk/library/Hhistory/HHBranas-Uchaf.pdf
Mentions a Maurice Jones (won't take your search forward but may be of interest).
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I don't know the contents of these documents,but a Denbighshire Archives search has the following
headings
Maurice Jones Vaerdre Ucha Gent 1620
Nathaniel Jones Vaerdre Ucha Gent 1652
Nathaniel Jones Hendwr Gent 1654
Nathaniel Jones Hendwr 1655/1657
Regards
Roger
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hanes teulu,
Thanks for pointing this out - I wonder if the John Jones mentioned along with Maurice as the other church warden is the John Jones, Ty Ucha - especially bearing in mind his descendants were successively parish clerks of Corwen/perhaps Llandrillo (I remember Roger that you pointed out a Robert Jones who was parish clerk in Llandrillo).
Roger,
This is very interesting. I wonder if Faerdref Ucha is the same as Ty Ucha, Faerdref (where John and Thomas lived). I will try and make a trip to Ruthin to see this record.
In the mean time I have come across this journal article at the NLW about the Brogyntyn manuscript, which makes reference to poetry written by and also to Nathaniel Jones, among a collection of the descendants of Owain Brogyntyn, though I'm not sure whether or not that would include Nathaniel. On this topic however I notice there's a pedigree in Lloyd's History of Powys Fadog of a family in Faerdref/Maerdref, Llandrillo going back to Owain Brogyntyn though there's no obvious connections (the ffoulkes family who share 2 graves with the Joneses of Llechwedd, also goes back to Owain Brogyntyn too).
http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1277425/llgc-id:1279553/llgc-id:1279558/get650 pp.279-80
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I don't think the link is working, but if you search for 'Hendwr' in the welsh journals online page at the NLW, then the Brogyntyn manuscripts article I refer to is the one on the 2nd page (there is another article on the 1st page about this too)
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It seems a number of terms appear to relate to "townships" identical with individual properties,which doesn't help.
The following article(page 91) makes an interesting assertion viz, two versions of the pedigree(s?),completely leave out a Humphrey Jones of Tyfos(without explaining where he fits).If this is the vicar/clerk of the 1693 will,he mentions a nephew John Jones,but it is unclear,to me at least, whether he is the son of Roger,Robert or Elizabeth(Humphrey's nominated children).
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ghr/
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
I will look into this further. Is the implication that Humphrey Jones is related to the Lloyds of Tyfos? - I have seen Humphrey's will though as he's a clergyman I wasn't sure he was from the parish originally - was it likely for a clergyman to become the vicar/rector of his home parish? I have checked his matriculation record (Oxford) and it doesn't give any hints at his parentage.
I notice Nathaniel is mentioned in this journal article - to my reading there's no pedigree information given/implication Humphrey is related?
Also if Humphrey is John Jones' uncle then he is probably the son of a brother who predeceased him as Mary Powell widow (who I suspected was his mother d. 1681)
Another interesting will is John ap Hugh ap Howell d.1663 who refers to Nathaniel Jones as his "kinsman". John ffoulkes is a witness.
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I'm not sure what the implication is-still trying to work it out!
Regards
Roger
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I'm not sure if the Humphrey Jones, Tyfos, is the same as the vicar of Llandrillo anyway as the Denbighshire archives (DD/GA/305) have a Humfrey Jones Tyfos Gentleman living 1697, after the date the vicar of Llandrillo's will was proven!
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Possibly some interesting connections here:-
There is William David John(?) as son in law to John Jones(1705 will)
I think he is synonymous with William David/William Jones of Meiarth,Gwyddelwern,as there are wills at NLW fiked under both names dated 1715
Other wills for this property yield a similar duality in the name of John Salisbury/John Wynne dated 1676.There are later wills for the Wynnes here also Robert(1726),John(1755),Robert(1758)
On the "dating old Welsh houses" site there is a Llandrillo entry for a Maes Tyddyn,also believed to be Ty'n y Maes.
In 1716(the year after William David's death there is an indenture from Samuel Parry of Plas Vaerdre to Robert David for the sale of Ty'n y Maes
There is then an MI for Robert David in 1758,aged 91(1667-1758?) and a wife Catherine in 1759 aged 94((1665-1759)
There is a will for Robert David,Gent,Ty'n y Maes,1758
This later data together with a later quotation of 1789 "...Robert Lloyd,late of Ty'n y Maes,now Ty Ucha..."I can't quite tell from the (lack of)context whether the property is synonymous or whether Robert Lloyd lived at two different addresses.
So there is William David/William Jones and Robert David(could he also be "also Jones?) and then there was that John David......
Regards
Roger
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I was trying to look at the "David Lloyd" question,in particular whether there was more than one David Lloyd concerned.Although the date of the first was too early for him to be directly relevant this is what I found
David Lloyd,Pennant,Llandrillo,Will(1678)
Amongst others his wife is named as Elizabeth vch Robert
There is then a will of 1690 for John Robert(brother of Elizabeth?) which in the text says "...of Pennant alias (?) Moelyscedwy.I think the implication is that Moelyscedwy is one of those "townships" and Pennant is in it(?)
In this he leaves some sort of interest to his brother Thomas in a property called Tyddyn y Ty Croes.
Could this be the property where Dorothy Jones is in her will of 1828?(a lot,lot later I know)
There is a separate will of 1700 for Elizabeth vch Robert herself(1700) in which she names her brother Thomas ab Robert,implying Elizabeth,John and Thomas are siblings(?) with father Robert (unknown).
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
Thank you for this information and I will reply to this properly in the next few days once I have access to my notes at home, however I seem to remember that this David Lloyd is the uncle of the David Lloyd who inherited Hendwr so all part of the same family.
Regarding David Lloyd, I had wondered if he was maybe a nephew(-in law) of John Jones, perhaps if his wife was a Gwen Lloyd - though can't prove this...perhaps a marriage for John Jones and Gwen would prove this.
I have looked through the will of William David alias Jones, and though his wife is an 'Alles'(?), is this definitely the same man as John Jones' son-in-law?
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No,I wouldn't say that by any means,it seemed a reasonable possibility.I'll take a day or two to review things and see if I can come up with better data or a different angle.
Regards
Roger