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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ShaCollins24 on Sunday 15 November 15 12:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I posted earlier in the Common Room regarding my frustration of trying to follow two lines for James Egan both born the same year. One in Kensington, the one I am really trying to discover AND the other born in Marylebone. I am getting confused between the two as they both seem to have married a woman with the same first name and their fathers have the same name and if you can believe it their mothers too. So it was suggested I posted the details here maybe some ninja researcher can help me decide which is correct.
The one I am trying to find details are:
Name: James Egan
Born: 1840, Kensington
Married: Susan Gibbs, 1863 Noting Hill - I do believe I at least have this correct.
Children: James Frederick Noble b 1864, Arthur Ernest b 1867 , Harry Walter b 1870 d 1872, Susan Ellen Jane b 1871, Sidney Percy b 1873, Charles Edward b 1877. All born in Hammersmith
Death: Between 1871-1879, I believe I found him in the index in 1877. His wife remarried in 1879, children living with her and step father in 1881 census
Lived: Kensington and Hammersmith
Occupation: Omnibus Conductor 1871 census
That is all the info I have.
Any help appreciated.
Sharon
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There is additional info on the 7 May 1863 marriage to Susan Gibbs at St John Notting Hill.
James was 23, a baker, of 8 Sutton St. Father: James Egan, booking clerk.
Witnesses: Frederick Gibbs and ??? Eyers? Or possibly a badly written Egan.
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Is this your James's birth?
James Patrick Egan
1840 Jan-Feb-Mar
Kensington
Volume: 3 Page: 274
His birth certificate should give his mother's maiden name, from there you may be able to trace their marriage.
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There is a full image of their marriage cert on Ancestry
Marriage 7 May 1863,St John, Notting Hill.
( John Egarr ) This has has been wrongly transcribed on viewing the original.
John Egan aged 23, Bachelor Occupation BAKER , abode 8 Sutton St , Father James Egan, Occupation Booking Clerk.
Susan Gibbs Aged 27 , Spinster ( No Occupation) abode 25 Pembridge Villas, Father Allen Gibbs , Occupation Painter
Witness to the marriage were Frederick Gibbs and ( I think) .......? Egan or Eyres ( Difficult to read)
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Tracing back here he is in 1861 Journeyman Occupation BAKER
Class: RG 9; Piece: 372; Folio: 60; Page: 12; ( Living with the LEE family)
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1851 Living at SUTTON ST ( as per his marriage cert)
James Egan 46 Lab ( Carpenter) Langford, Ireland
Maria Egan 56 Launderess born Dulverton, Somerset, England
Ellen Egan 15 Kensington, Middlesex, England
James P Egan 11 Scholar Kensington, Middlesex, England
John Egan 8 Scholar Kensington, Middlesex, England
Thomas Egan 4 Kensington, Middlesex, England
Emma Egan 2 Kensington, Middlesex, England
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So he was of 8 Sutton St when he married.
Have you looked at the family at 4 Sutton St in 1851 - James and Maria Egan, with several children incuding a James P Egan, 11 b Kensington?
Birth registered as James Patrick Egan, Mar qtr 1840 Kensington.
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The family in 1861
1861 Census
Maria Egan 45 Widow, Launderess of Dulverton Somerset
John Egan 18 Journeyman Baker
William Egan 14 Gardener
Emma Egan 12 Scholar
Alice Egan 6 Scholar
Henry Gardner 39 Lodger
George Martin 18 Lodger
Class: RG 9; Piece: 55; Folio: 119; Page: 19;
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That looks like the right family. To eliminate the Marylebone ones:
1841 All born in county
James 30 Ginger beer ?
Maria 30
Mary 7
William 7
James 1
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Cross poster with Judi, but the James Bernard Egan (Marylebone) baptism looks likely to be a separate person - born after James Patrick's birth had been registered (in Kensington).
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AVM agree just modified I believe your correct and me wrong on that point
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Cross poster with Judi, but the James Bernard Egan (Marylebone) baptism looks likely to be a separate person - born after James Patrick's birth had been registered (in Kensington).
Yes as that is where I get confused as others seem to confuse the two. I think James Bernard is the other one not the one I want.
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I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to do a search. I too have come up with the same info. Just get confused with the James Bernard and if you look at some of the trees on ancestry people have confused the two as well and I think I am letting that guide my way more than I should. I know not to believe others trees but to follow my own research.
I suppose what I need to know if I can firmly dismiss the James Bernard.
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I think James Bernard is the one whose father was the Ginger Beer maker in 1841. There is a possibility - from a tree on Ancestry, that his mother was actually Elizabeth Maria
Elizabeth Maria Snow
Marriage to James Egan
1833
23 Sep
Old Church, St Pancras
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Is this your James's birth?
James Patrick Egan
1840 Jan-Feb-Mar
Kensington
Volume: 3 Page: 274
His birth certificate should give his mother's maiden name, from there you may be able to trace their marriage.
I believe so, I just need to order the certificate.
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Agree you need the birth certificate but in the meantime suggest you have another look at the 4 Sutton St Egan family in 1851. On the same page, at 5 Sutton St, is a widowed Mary Snow, 66 b Willington Somerset, who has in her household a granddaughter Mary Egan 17 b Kensington - possibly an older sister of James Patrick.
I suggest Mary Snow is worth investigating in case she is the mother of Maria Egan, who also has a Somerset birthplace.
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Name: Maria Snow
Spouse: Jas Egan
Marriage Date: 1833
Parish: St. Pancras
also
Name: Maria Snow
Spouse: James Egan
Marriage 23 Sep 1833
Parish Chapel, St Pancras
Borough Camden
So that looks to be a great Poss , But to be 100% you do need to order the birth record as suggested.
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Plus baptisms at St Peter, Hammersmith: children of James and Susan Egan of 2 Grove Villas. James is a Baker.
Sidney Percy - born 15 November 1873, baptised 1 February 1874
Charles Edward - born 14 June and baptised 5 August 1877
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I can see why you are getting confused! That family in 1841 has a Mary Egan who would would fit with the Mary Egan in 1851 as well!
I think before you do any more, you need the certificate to find if she was Maria Snow. Let us know!
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Elizabeth Maria Snow
Marriage to James Egan
1833
23 Sep
Old Church, St Pancras
The name Elizabeth doesn't appear in the parish record of this marriage - as Groom pointed out it comes from an Ancestry tree only.
As Judi has posted the bride's name was just Maria Snow.
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Just a thought as well, if James's father was from Ireland that fits with James being given the middle name of Patrick. ;D
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In 1851 Mary Snow of 5 Sutton St also has with her a son Frederick, 24 b Kensington.
Possibly the Frederick Blake Snow baptised at St Mary Abbot's, Kensington, on 30 Jan 1825.
Parents: John (attorney's clerk) and Mary, of Church Court.
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Baptism, 1 Apr 1816, Dulverton, Somerset
Maria Snow, daughter of John & Mary.
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Elizabeth Maria Snow
Marriage to James Egan
1833
23 Sep
Old Church, St Pancras
The name Elizabeth doesn't appear in the parish record of this marriage - as Groom pointed out it comes from an Ancestry tree only.
As Judi has posted the bride's name was just Maria Snow.
BUT the name Elizabeth Maria appears on one of the baptisms - father is James = Soda Water Manufacturer. Mary Ann Isabella born 10 October 1833, baptised 6 January 1834 at Langham, Westminster.
William James (1836) just James and Maria = Ginger Beer Maker.
Joseph (1838) just James and Maria = Soda Water Maker
James Bernard (1840) now James BERNARD and Maria = Soda Water Manufacturer
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Elizabeth Maria Snow
Marriage to James Egan
1833
23 Sep
Old Church, St Pancras
The name Elizabeth doesn't appear in the parish record of this marriage - as Groom pointed out it comes from an Ancestry tree only.
As Judi has posted the bride's name was just Maria Snow.
BUT the name Elizabeth Maria appears on one of the baptisms - father is James = Soda Water Manufacturer. Mary Ann Isabella born 10 October 1833, baptised 6 January 1834 at Langham, Westminster.
William James (1836) just James and Maria = Ginger Beer Maker.
Joseph (1838) just James and Maria = Soda Water Maker
James Bernard (1840) now James BERNARD and Maria = Soda Water Manufacturer
That is the other family though (Marylebone).
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I can see others are getting confused with this line as well. Will order the James Patrick birth this week. Hopefully that will answer the question.
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Yes, avm228 - I had realised that this was the other family. However, I was just adding that "Elizabeth" had occurred as an additional forename for Maria, as had Bernard for James. Very sorry if I have added to the confusion - it was meant to add to the confirmation that this was the wrong family line for ShaCollins24.
:-*
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I agree BumbleB ( I think!) if Maria was Elizabeth Maria Snow she isn't the right one. Only one solution to this - the birth certificate. ;D
The puzzle also is where is the other family in 1841?
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I agree BumbleB ( I think!) if Maria was Elizabeth Maria Snow she isn't the right one. Only one solution to this - the birth certificate. ;D
The puzzle also is where is the other family in 1841?
I really don't think there was an Elizabeth Maria Snow.
James Egan married Maria Snow on 23 Sep 1833 (as previously seen).
James Bernard Egan appears to have married Elizabeth Maria Castree, St Marylebone, 23 Jan 1832.
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Re 1841: if the Kensington family was in or near Sutton St they will not be found - the relevant piece is known to be missing.
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Re 1841: if the Kensington family was in or near Sutton St they will not be found - the relevant piece is known to be missing.
Typical!
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Re 1841: if the Kensington family was in or near Sutton St they will not be found - the relevant piece is known to be missing.
Typical!
Indeed!
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I agree BumbleB ( I think!) if Maria was Elizabeth Maria Snow she isn't the right one. Only one solution to this - the birth certificate. ;D
The puzzle also is where is the other family in 1841?
Yes this is a puzzle as I have tried every possible search to find them. I will continue though. Birth certificate will be ordered this week.
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Re 1841: if the Kensington family was in or near Sutton St they will not be found - the relevant piece is known to be missing.
Ahhh, I was wondering!!
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Hi
Just one or two pieces of information (hopefully not adding to the confusion).
The address of the family in the 1861 census posted by Judy2632 on page 1 is 3 Kensington Place. There is a marriage at St John's Notting Hill in 1865 (5 March) between a John Egan and Amelia Wright. John Egan is a baker , address 3 Kensington Place. His father is named as James Egan but his occupation is given as schoolmaster! ( Noting that this is the same church where James Gibbs married Susan Gibbs might they have been "creative " when giving father's occupation).
Maria Egan has been transcribed as Egar on the 1871 census.
Address 5 Waldigrave Terrace
Maria 54 Laundress b Dulverton, Somerset (age difficult to read - could be 56 or 50)
Ellen 32 Nurse? domestic b Kensington
William 24 House painter b Kensington
Alice 16 b Hammersmith
There is also a workhouse admission in 1876 in Fulham (March 16th) for Maria Egan born 1816 - calling ironer, religious persuasion RC. There is a death in the 2nd Quarter 1876 in Fulham of a Maria Egan b 1816. ( Note that a public tree on acy.has Maria Egan's death in 1893 and a probate entry - I think that that is a different Maria as 1891 census gives her place of birth as Ireland).
William
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With this family I have come to realize that they mostly made things up. For instance. James and Susan's eldest son in one census states he was born in Ireland which is clearly untrue as his birth was registered in Hammersmith and he was also baptised there.
Therefore it wouldn't surprise me if they bent the truth a bit on occupations.
Sharon
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Sharon
If James Egan's mother does indeed turn out to be Maria Snow you might find it useful to look at Freereg and Genuki (go to Somerset pages and then Dulverton Parish) where there are useful transcriptions of bmds. From this to add to the baptism for Maria Snow 1 April 1816, Dulverton, father John Snow's occupation was maltster. There is a possible marriage in the parish of Upton 13 Dec 1808 of John Snow and Mary Chidgey - groom parish Dulverton. Upton Parish includes Wittington. Could this be the Mary Snow referred to earlier in the thread in the 1851 census?
Hope you will let us know if our theorizing is correct when the cert arrives!
William
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Came home from work today to find the certificate had arrived.
James Patrick Egan born 6 March 1840, Sutton Street
Father James Egan
Mother Maria Snow.
So puzzle is solved and I was correct that some of the trees on ancestry are confusing the two families.
Sharon
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That's good, nice when that happens. Thank you for letting us know.