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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jcjc123 on Monday 16 November 15 13:57 GMT (UK)
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I have a Thomas Richard Startup born 8 apr 1870 (Eastry, Kent, England) no death details.
His father was a lifelong naval man (see other thread) but it appears he was called up for the 1st war, i've found a few references to his medal card (all charging so i can't see it) but nothing further with dates/what he did/where he went etc.
Medal record links include http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5362503
The only info i have is from A*try (WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920) but it's very basic and i can't find any further mention. He's on various census so i don't think he served for long, but all i have is;
British War Medal and Victory Medal serving with the Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment (Previous Units 1/RWK. GS/5120. Pte)
Can anyone shed any light, offer further certificates or suggestions of where i should be looking please?
Many thanks
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You can take a free 14 day trial of Ancestry They have the same card, but in colour. The NA cards are in black & white and you get six men together. That link is for an army man.
The NA page that you used to get to that link describes the medals and awards most service men received. If they entered a theatre of war before 1st January 1916 they received a Star. All service men who served overseas in a war zone received both the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
Ken
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You can take a free 14 day trial of Ancestry They have the same card, but in colour. The NA cards are in black & white and you get six men together. That link is for an army man.
The NA page that you used to get to that link describes the medals and awards most service men received. If they entered a theatre of war before 1st January 1916 they received a Star. All service men who served overseas in a war zone received both the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
Ken
i have a subscription to ance*try but it wasn't finding anything, would you have a link if you have found it?
I didn't use a NA link to get to it - if there's a part i've missed that you know about please tell me?
I would like to be able to find what/where he did rather than general war terms, if it's possible
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About seventy percent of WW1 records were lost in a fire in WW2, so it is highly likely the medal information is all you will find, these were kept separately which why they survive.
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The Long Long Trail website is a good starting point to find out what the Royal West Kents did in the war (but is rather short on detail): http://www.1914-1918.net/rwk.htm
The National Archive http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/30bd1e6d-c8db-4810-87e6-f02acdb33030 gives a link to Royal West Kent records held in Kent History & Library Centre.
hut-six lists threre Startups serving in the RWK who may be related: http://www.hut-six.co.uk/GreatWar/WestKent_S.html
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The Long Long Trail website is a good starting point to find out what the Royal West Kents did in the war (but is rather short on detail): http://www.1914-1918.net/rwk.htm
The National Archive http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/30bd1e6d-c8db-4810-87e6-f02acdb33030 gives a link to Royal West Kent records held in Kent History & Library Centre.
hut-six lists threre Startups serving in the RWK who may be related: http://www.hut-six.co.uk/GreatWar/WestKent_S.html
Thanks for this - i suspect the other startups on www.hut-six.co.uk are related but without being able to access more info i can't be certain.
With the national archives i've not been able to find which battalion he was with and without that i can't tell much, the same problem applies with the Long Long Trail website, i need a battalion to get any meaningful info :/
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His MRC has him entering the War 29th April 1915 and Discharged 22nd May 1918.
He was entitled to:
- 1915 Star
British War Medal
Victory Medal
As he was discharged before the end of the War, I checked the Silver War Badge Roll where he appears with a bit more information.
He enlisted 23rd Dec 1914 and was discharged due to wounds received in action although there is one puzzling detail, he gives his age as 26?
David
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His MRC has him entering the War 29th April 1915 and Discharged 22nd May 1918.
He was entitled to:
- 1915 Star
British War Medal
Victory Medal
As he was discharged before the end of the War, I checked the Silver War Badge Roll where he appears with a bit more information.
He enlisted 23rd Dec 1914 and was discharged due to wounds received in action although there is one puzzling detail, he gives his age as 26?
David
thanks for looking at this - the 1871 1881 & 1891 census are pretty clear on his age all agreeing with 1869/70 as a birth year. At 1918 he would have been around 44. He did have a some (william thomas startup) born 1903 but mistaking that 15yr old for a 26yr old seems as far fetched.
I can only think it's slightly illegible writting or the wrong person, Startup was a more common name then, than I expected.
Does it give any further info that i might be able to check again the tree/info that i have? Sorry but i've never seen the records you mention (what's MRC?) so i'm not sure what you can access
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His MRC has him entering the War 29th April 1915 and Discharged 22nd May 1918.
He was entitled to:
- 1915 Star
British War Medal
Victory Medal
As he was discharged before the end of the War, I checked the Silver War Badge Roll where he appears with a bit more information.
He enlisted 23rd Dec 1914 and was discharged due to wounds received in action although there is one puzzling detail, he gives his age as 26?
David
i'm realising he would have been 46 when enlisted...is it possibly a 'typo' ?
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MRC Medal Record Card, It could be a typo, that would be my best guess as there's no other Thomas Startup that fits the bill. Or, he could of lied about his age?
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MRC Medal Record Card, It could be a typo, that would be my best guess as there's no other Thomas Startup that fits the bill. Or, he could of lied about his age?
Any 46yr old man who can convincingly pass for 26 deserves a medal!
It does make me wonder what his injuries were though if the age difference wasn't obvious to anyone treating him, fully body burns? Please do let me know if there's anything at all on the records you're able to see or if there's somewhere i can view them myself (as screenshot would be wonderful if not)
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As far as I can remember it's discharged due to the fact that he's no longer fit for active service due to wounds or sickness (in his case wounds).
As for other information, unless you can find his service record or any subsequent medical records there's not much hope I'm afraid.
Your only other source would be the War Diary, some of which are on A*****ry under Unit Histories.
If I were a betting man I would try 20th March to 9th April 1918 due to the German Spring Offensive and the fact the the 6th, 7th and 8th RWK's were in the thick of it. He most likely wont get mentioned by name but it'll give you an idea of where and when.
David
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thank you for your help,
as i get further into my family tree (unsurprisingly) i'm finding more and more who served in WW1 so it would be helpful to know where i should be looking for their info but i'm trying hard to focus on one person at a time, there's just sooooooo much to learn and do i'm losing the lives amoungst all the dates
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There are so many different sites you can use that will give you little nuggets of information.
I use the 3 main Family History sites as a base then move on to the others like Forces War Records, 1914-1918 the long long trail, this one, and other forums along with the web in general.
With those you should be able to find something to give you a good picture.
Then there's always the Regimental Museums, National Archives and National Museums if you've got the time?
David
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Regimental Museums are brilliant, especially if the librarian happens to be a helpful type.
RRTB
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That age of 26 is a bit if a problem and it would be good to look again at evidence....
Looking at that medal card link from National Archive you give for Thomas Startup...It does not give a middle name (Richard) which would be good supporting evidence it is your man. The silver war badge record does not say Richard either (and also has age 26).
JCJC Do you have other information tying your man to this regiment and/or with this number? (on a marriage/birth certificate for example?).What leads you to think this is the right medal card and therefore the right man? Is it possible he did not serve in WW1 or do you have family stories, photos etc that suggest he did?
Without any other evidence I would say that as the Silver Badge record says age 26 (and that badge matches the medal card), it would seem most likely that this is not Thomas Richard born 1870 but another Thomas Startup born about 1892 (there are plenty born about that time)
Just for reference, here is earlier thread which shows Thomas having middle name Richard www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734373.msg5797522#msg5797522
It also shows Thomas absent from family in 1901 census and not found elsewhere. So where was he? Was he abroad in army or navy perhaps? He was occupation Labourer in 1897 and 1903 on children's baptisms.
We can't do 1911 lookups..but have you found him in 1911 yet?
Milly
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No help with a military search but I think I found him in 1901. In hospital in The London Hospital, Whitechapel Road, Whitechapel which is not far from his family in Poplar.
He is just listed as Thomas Startup age 30 which gives a birth year of 1871 (only very slightly out and not unusual). Birthplace Deal, Kent which is close to Eastry. Married. Painters Labourer.
I can't see any other Thomas Startup from Deal born about 1871 so while is not 100% it looks very very likely to me.
If that is him it does mean you don't need to look for any military connection in 1901
1901 census
RG13 Piece 304 Folio 37 Page 22
Thomas Startup, Patient
Marital status Married
Age 30
Born Deal
Occupation Painters Laborer
Parish Whitechapel
Registration district Whitechapel
Transcript here at the excellent free site familysearch.org
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9D6-KQ1
You can't see original image there but you can use details to find him on Ancestry (or other pay site)
Milly
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No help with a military search but I think I found him in 1901. In hospital in The London Hospital, Whitechapel Road, Whitechapel which is not far from his family in Poplar.
He is just listed as Thomas Startup age 30 which gives a birth year of 1871 (only very slightly out and not unusual). Birthplace Deal, Kent which is close to Eastry. Married. Painters Labourer.
I can't see any other Thomas Startup from Deal born about 1871 so while is not 100% it looks very very likely to me.
If that is him it does mean you don't need to look for any military connection in 1901
1901 census
RG13 Piece 304 Folio 37 Page 22
Thomas Startup, Patient
Marital status Married
Age 30
Born Deal
Occupation Painters Laborer
Parish Whitechapel
Registration district Whitechapel
Transcript here at the excellent free site familysearch.org
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9D6-KQ1
You can't see original image there but you can use details to find him on Ancestry (or other pay site)
Milly
thanks so much for this - i did wonder where he disapeared to (it just says 'not home' on the 1901 with his family) now i'm wondering what was wrong with him!
Can you tell me where you can see that it was the london hospital he was in?
the address on https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9D6-KQ1 of Whitechapel, London, Middlesex, England doesn't give a street/hospital name - i'm guessing you know it's the only one there and i'm being dim?
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That age of 26 is a bit if a problem and it would be good to look again at evidence....
Looking at that medal card link from National Archive you give for Thomas Startup...It does not give a middle name (Richard) which would be good supporting evidence it is your man. The silver war badge record does not say Richard either (and also has age 26).
JCJC Do you have other information tying your man to this regiment and/or with this number? (on a marriage/birth certificate for example?).What leads you to think this is the right medal card and therefore the right man? Is it possible he did not serve in WW1 or do you have family stories, photos etc that suggest he did?
Without any other evidence I would say that as the Silver Badge record says age 26 (and that badge matches the medal card), it would seem most likely that this is not Thomas Richard born 1870 but another Thomas Startup born about 1892 (there are plenty born about that time)
Just for reference, here is earlier thread which shows Thomas having middle name Richard www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734373.msg5797522#msg5797522
It also shows Thomas absent from family in 1901 census and not found elsewhere. So where was he? Was he abroad in army or navy perhaps? He was occupation Labourer in 1897 and 1903 on children's baptisms.
We can't do 1911 lookups..but have you found him in 1911 yet?
Milly
I'm feeling (having not seen the medical card record myself) that either the hand writting is bad and it could be a number misreading, or it's just the wrong person. I'm not ruling it out till i've seen the document myself but it is looking likely that's a different chap - possibly whatever hospitalised him in 1901 ruled him out of subscription so that would be interesting to find out more on.
I have him in 1903 back with his family (out of hospital) and having more children so some parts of him were working! But nothing (other than dying siblings/parents) after that.
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No you are not being dim :)
Institutions like hospitals, schools, barracks, workhouses were enumerated in a slightly different way. The name of the institution is on the front page (or near the front, I can't remember) and not on each individual page.
There are various ways of getting to this page depending on the site you are using.
You start from the actual original image of the page (not a transcript) with your name and then page backwards to get to the front. On some sites you can change page numbers in the viewer and leap back to the front which is less time consuming - especially if like in this case you are starting on page twenty!
That paging through the census images is really useful to know about for other things eg seeing which regiment a soldier is in if it is a barracks, or just walking the the streets of a census area if you know someone lives there but you can't find them by searching on a name which may be mis transcribed.
I think it does look like this could be your man in hospital but not sure you will ever know why he was there. Sometimes local records offices have hospital records but is a long shot.
Milly
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No you are not being dim :)
Institutions like hospitals, schools, barracks, workhouses were enumerated in a slightly different way. The name of the institution is on the front page (or near the front, I can't remember) and not on each individual page.
There are various ways of getting to this page depending on the site you are using.
You start from the actual original image of the page (not a transcript) with your name and then page backwards to get to the front. On some sites you can change page numbers in the viewer and leap back to the front which is less time consuming - especially if like in this case you are starting on page twenty!
That paging through the census images is really useful to know about for other things eg seeing which regiment a soldier is in if it is a barracks, or just walking the the streets of a census area if you know someone lives there but you can't find them by searching on a name which may be mis transcribed.
I think it does look like this could be your man in hospital but not sure you will ever know why he was there. Sometimes local records offices have hospital records but is a long shot.
Milly
thanks for the advice, i've been doing this just a few weeks and it's been a very steep learning curve, my father in law tried to do the tree 10+years ago but found it very slow going, by comparison i'm speeding through it but everyone seems to know so much more than me and while it takes me ages (if at all!) to find something, you guys know it in seconds so i'm hoping to catch up eventually!
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No you are not being dim :)
Institutions like hospitals, schools, barracks, workhouses were enumerated in a slightly different way. The name of the institution is on the front page (or near the front, I can't remember) and not on each individual page.
There are various ways of getting to this page depending on the site you are using.
You start from the actual original image of the page (not a transcript) with your name and then page backwards to get to the front. On some sites you can change page numbers in the viewer and leap back to the front which is less time consuming - especially if like in this case you are starting on page twenty!
That paging through the census images is really useful to know about for other things eg seeing which regiment a soldier is in if it is a barracks, or just walking the the streets of a census area if you know someone lives there but you can't find them by searching on a name which may be mis transcribed.
I think it does look like this could be your man in hospital but not sure you will ever know why he was there. Sometimes local records offices have hospital records but is a long shot.
Milly
Just a thought - I vaguely remember reading there's a record of people who couldn't be signed up ww1 - and a reason, is it likely (if that's correct) i can find him and his illness there?
is there a smart way to check all family of the right age on ww1 subscriptions to see if they served?
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It is possible it is a mistake in age on the silver war badge card but unlikely.
Thomas would have been 44/45 in 1914/15 which is quite old. There were soldiers of that age if course. You often see it where they had previous army service or specific skills.
It would not be unusual for someone of his age not to have been enlisted in WW1
Do you have a particular reason to think he did? And why that particular medal card you asked about (see my earlier questions)
Milly
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No there is no list of those who did not serve. You may be thinking of conscientious objectors .. those who refused to serve on moral grounds. (There is no full list if these either)
Not sure what you mean by this
is there a smart way to check all family of the right age on ww1 subscriptions to see if they served?
All family of right age? Do you mean a particular family?
WW 1 subscriptions? (Do you mean enlistment?)
Milly
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No there is no list of those who did not serve. You may be thinking of conscientious objectors .. those who refused to serve on moral grounds. (There is no list if these either)
Not sure what you mean by this
is there a smart way to check all family of the right age on ww1 subscriptions to see if they served?
All family of right age? Do you mean a particular family?
WW 1 subscriptions? (Do you mean enlistment?)
Milly
I have no reason to think he served - other that the a*ctry hint that now seems to give the wrong age.
All family of the right age - I mean everyone in my tree who was of the right age around the time of the war - in some branches I know a son served, but he had 5-9 other brothers i'd also check, is there a smart way to do this?
subscription - sorry i mean conscription
i do recall being told of a list of those who were excepted, a very small % were conscientious objectors, most were illness and some where employment as the reason they didn't have to serve. I'll have a route about to find out
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Ah..You mean Reserved Occupation. No there is no list.
In early years of war men were volunteers and conscription only came in in 1916.
http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWconscription.htm
You generally use the term "enlisted" as in signed up. You will also see "Attested" to mean when they fill in the "Attestation Sheet" signing up to serve.
Those pesky Ancestry hints should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. There are loads of Thomas Startup medal cards and no way to match one to your man without more information which we don't have. Sometimes people have a medal with a name and number and regiment on it, or maybe a photo of a man in uniform with identifiable badges, or letters home, or a wartime marriage certificate etc. Without something like that to give you regiment/service number it is impossible to match up a medal card to a man.
Very occasionally a medal card will have an address on it (for where to send medals) so always worth checking the original. (Ideally the Ancestry colour version which has front and back)
There are no quick and easy ways...without knowing a regiment or service number you have to plough through service papers.
Look at Ancestry and if there is no Thomas Richard then you have to open original image for every single possible Thomas Startup looking for age, occupation, birthplace, address, next of kin. Eventually you may find one that matches something you already know.
Only about 30% of papers survived the blitz in WW2 so you still only have a one in three chance of success. That said, I have found people this way.
There is also a thing called National Roll of The Great War. It lists some men who served and often gives their address. The details were supplied by family after the war who paid for the entry. It is a tiny proportion if those who served but I did find my great grandfather there whose records had been lost. I believe you have ancestry http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=9283
Milly
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I think you said you have Ancestry? If so you can see that Silver War Badge Record with age 26 yourself. The search is hidden away and hard to find sometimes. Here is a link to it
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2456
Other useful sites
Commonwealth War Graves should list All deaths of service personnel and some civilians in both wars.
www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx
In addition to Ancestry, WW1 Medal Cards can be searched at National Archives. Sometimes it is easier to search there and then go to Ancestry for the colour image. You can download image at National Archive for a fee but is black and white and does not show reverse of the card
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/
Those are the main starter sites for WW1 research.
Milly
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No. There is no way of searching a whole family at once.
You have to search each individually. Sometimes boys enlisted together in same regiment which can help once you find one. But later in the war this happened less often.
At beginning of war when local friends and brothers went to volunteer together into Pals Battalions you do often see them with similar or consecutive numbers which can be a clue when looking at medal cards with all the brothers names. Not foolproof though as could be coincidence or a cousin.
They then trained and fought together. Unfortunately that meant they often died together too. One reason for change later from the Pals system.
Milly
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From that site on conscription.
"The Military Service Act of January 1916 specified that single men between the ages of 18 and 41 were liable to be called-up for military service unless they were widowed with children or ministers of religion. Conscription started on 2nd March 1916. The act was extended to married men on 25th May 1916. The law went through several changes before the war's end with the age limit eventually being raised to 51."
Thomas at 44 would not have been called up straight away but may have volunteered. By end if war he would be 48 so was just inside age range.
If he enlisted he may not have been sent abroad in which case there would be no medals and so no medal card.
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Ah..You mean Reserved Occupation. No there is no list.
In early years of war men were volunteers and conscription only came in in 1916.
http://spartacus-educational.com/FWWconscription.htm
You generally use the term "enlisted" as in signed up. You will also see "Attested" to mean when they fill in the "Attestation Sheet" signing up to serve.
Milly
No i meant a list of people who asked to be excused from serving in WW1 and the reason why - sorry i thought i'd be clear in saying that- a small % of that list was objectors, it wasn't a list of just objectors...
I finally found it - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/middlesex-military-service-appeal-tribunal-1916-1918 hopefully that explains well enough?
Those who tried to get out of serving, and some examples showing the reasons they gave for not serving, http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/middlesex-military-service-appeal-tribunal-1916-1918
I'm sure it was one of the chaps on the World Naval Ships Forums that suggested it, but i've not kept a note.
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Sorry, Yes I see now what you were saying.
No, there is no complete list of these tribunals
There is an explanation in the Middlesex link you posted
".... these records are for the Middlesex Appeal Tribunal and the Central Appeal Tribunal only. Most tribunal records were destroyed after the war by government order.
Some incomplete sets of records relating to local tribunals are held at local record offices. Search for ‘military service tribunals’ on our catalogue to find out what records are held elsewhere"
I don't have any Middlesex links so have never tried to search this. Might be worth putting some of your London names in though as parts of London were classed as Middlesex.
Interesting article all about them here
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29954113
It talks about some Cheshire ones. I might have a look myself.
Milly