RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: hurworth on Tuesday 17 November 15 09:21 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to rule out or in a possibility here for a male ancestor who was born in the late 1840s.
If a descendant (great grandchild) did a DNA test (Family Finder, and uploaded to Gedmatch) what might indicate Romany ancestry, and which of the various origins tests on Gedmatch is best?
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Hi there,
I had this same question, below is part of a reply I received from the owner of the Romany DNA Project on FamilyDNA.
Basically he is saying through the autosomal test (which gives you a broad continent %age of you dna) you may or may not see a small south asian %age and this test really is inconclusive.
I had my autsomal test done through ancestry.com. I will next be putting the results through FamilytreeDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/products.aspx.
This site matches your dna with other peoples, so you use your dna to build your family tree and this way can build a picture if there is a romany lineage.
I believe that you can do a deeper dna test which is the "Fathers line" or "The mothers line" on the Family dna site. However for this to work, the romany ancester has to be your fathers fathers father (and so on etc etc) or mothers mothers mother (etc etc).
In my case the potential romany ancester is my fathers mother, so I can't use these tests.
Good luck! Here is his message:
" ... You may or may not show a small South Asian percentage on your autosomal report, but that hasn't as much meaning to me, what does have more meaning to me is matching existing Romany participants and there are multiple Romany whom have done the autosomal test. I do not put a lot of faith in to the admixture population reports because those reports are grossly lop sided towards the European population, so it may find some percentages to certain populations like the Romany, or may not find any at all.
I know of male Romany "Rom" whom are in Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 which is clearly South Asian in origin, but their autosomal reports shows zero percent South Asian. Because of admixture, the mixing of Romany and Europeans over the last 1000 to 2000 years, Romany on an autosomal genetic level are more European today then South Asian. What has more meaning to me personally is the DNA matches you will have because that is really what that test is more about, finding related family members whom share autosomal DNA with you. The autosomal test works exactly as it was intended, I found two cousins through that test, one is my paternal grand mothers nephew, and one is my grand aunt's grand son, so the test is best if used for it's primary purpose, to find related family members and not 100% rely on what the admixture report has to say because those admixture reports are heavily biased towards the European population.
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My experience - South Asia DNA was a good marker for me. I am a DNA match to someone in the Stanley family, and he was thoughtful enough to send me a reply with some of my surnames that are often used by Romany's. This was confirmed when I put my DNA data of GEDmatch. I found a very close relative there, and he matches quite nicely with me on my X chromosome. We only have 2% South Asia DNA, so it was more important to do a little family history than a DNA test, to find out when my ancestors were in the Romany culture. Which was in the 1800's, not what one would expect with 2% South Asia DNA.
FYI - my Romany ancestors are William Riley, b. around 1775, and Elizabeth Swagg Meriden, b. 1778 Great Packington, Warwickshire, to Mary and John "Swagg of Meriden". Elizabeth used Meriden when she got married.
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Hi there, thanks for the reply! I just got my dna data back, I have a really busy few weeks, cant wait till I have a spare monent to do some more research with the new information.
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Congrats on your DNA test! Back in 1982, I got my Master's degree in Genetics. But I never really used it, worked as a Chemist instead. Now that I'm not working, I'm discovering that a lot of people don't know how to use genetics in their DNA genealogy search. For example, most people don't know how to follow an X chromosome match back to the common ancestor. They forget that it can be passed from father to daughter. So I have started a blog for anyone who'd like to know how to use genetics in their ancestry searching. Its at: http://ancestraldnaexplained.blogspot.com/
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge on this.
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I had my DNA test on Ancestry. Uploaded it to Gedmatch and got quite a few matches. I have British and Eastern European (my mums non-gypsy side, I expected this) so I assume the Iberian Peninsuala (Spain/Italy/Portugal) results are my dad's Romany gypsy side.
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The original Romany DNA is "South Asia", from India where our people originated from 1500 years ago. I think for English Romanys a lot of Iberian got mixed in. In Britain, that is mostly the people in Cornwall and maybe Wales. I'm going to PM you with my gedmatch number, you can pm me back with yours. I'll show you some interesting things you can do on GEdmatch.
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None of the Romany families I know have dna from Asia though, so Im thinking there are more of us with Spanish gypsy blood than we actually realise.
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I have Asian .I'm Smith /Elliott /Gray /Wiltshire .Butler /Boswell paternal and Wilson /Burnside /Rhodes maternal .I have a small % which surprised me I thought i would have a lot more ,but it does not work that way .I'm glad i took the test ,found lots of distant cousins and several 3rd cousins ..
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Here is his message:
" ... You may or may not show a small South Asian percentage on your autosomal report, but that hasn't as much meaning to me, what does have more meaning to me is matching existing Romany participants and there are multiple Romany whom have done the autosomal test. I do not put a lot of faith in to the admixture population reports because those reports are grossly lop sided towards the European population, so it may find some percentages to certain populations like the Romany, or may not find any at all.
I know of male Romany "Rom" whom are in Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 which is clearly South Asian in origin, but their autosomal reports shows zero percent South Asian. Because of admixture, the mixing of Romany and Europeans over the last 1000 to 2000 years, Romany on an autosomal genetic level are more European today then South Asian. What has more meaning to me personally is the DNA matches you will have because that is really what that test is more about, finding related family members whom share autosomal DNA with you. The autosomal test works exactly as it was intended, I found two cousins through that test, one is my paternal grand mothers nephew, and one is my grand aunt's grand son, so the test is best if used for it's primary purpose, to find related family members and not 100% rely on what the admixture report has to say because those admixture reports are heavily biased towards the European population.
This is a good point.
I think it is also true that 2 full siblings can take an autosomal test each, but have different results. So one might show some South Asian % and the other show none at all? Even though they both share the same ancestry. Also, as already said, the Romany travelled through many countries, settling in some for a considerable time, intermarrying with locals and then some moving on again
I have a very unusual surname that is on the same branch but in 2 different families (if that makes sense). A spelling variant of this unusual name appears as Y haplo group H in this Romany dna project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romnchel?iframe=yresults
The families who marry into this unusual name, are not obviously Romany in the 19thc, (apart from a distant cousin in caravans with Romany families), but when you go back further, some of them do seem to be itinerant metal workers and they do seem to intermarry over generations.
I haven't taken a dna test myself (don't know where to start?), just noticed others with the same name who have. By Googling uncommon surnames, looking at the dna results/project and where their ancestors came from. Though I do realise that just because they share a surname and come from the same area, this is not definate proof that they are related. But you might get lucky and find that the person who did the tests ancestor (who is named and dated in the project), is somewhere on your own family tree
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I don't believe there is any mystery remaining re the origin of the Romany's. A search of wikipedia will reveal all. There are many websites. Relatively recently a professor of linguistics from Oxford University spoke to as many Romany's as possible asking them about their language. From that he realised that their origins were Indian. However, from the websites, it appears that their origins may have been understood 150 years ago.
Southern Asia means southern India and then they migrated to northern India. This was 1,000 years ago or more. They were entertainers, singers and dancers I think. They were invited to perform for the Persian court and were there for some years. Then they were banished and hence the migrations to all over Europe and beyond.
They first appeared in England in the 1400's, can't remember the exact year but it was recorded. Being swarthy they attracted the name Egyptians (shortened to gypsies). Later Romany's because one of the routes into Europe was via Romania/Rumania/Romania.
They were due to be banished from England in the time of 'Bloody' Queen Mary but it may not have happened (The Jews were long gone). I remember reading a quote from Queen Mary 'that they could stay if they weren't naughty'. Evidently, she shared the view of modern police that Romany's/gypsies are just a pack of thieves.
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Regorian - you can have your DNA tested at Ancestry.com, wait till there's a sale and save some money. Once you get the results, transfer the DNA results to Gedmatch. That site has tools where you can find even very small amounts of South Asian DNA. If you don't have any, you're still Romany because it's a culture as well as an ethnic group. With Ancestry you're more likely to find more distant cousins than other sites. Just be prepared to have a lot of them freak out at the mention of Romany Gypsy and stop talking to you.
I've read articles about Romany origins, some say that our ancestors were warriors and the forgers of weapons and other metal objects. They were recruited to fight a war somewhere between Iran and Pakistan, then they began migrating westward. How they came to Britain I don't know, but I also have about 1% North African DNA, so maybe we did go thru Egypt.
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I don't need any DNA testing, my name places me and mine in Britain for thousands of years.
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Oh I'm sorry, I had you mixed up with another poster (Sally York) who was asking about DNA testing. It's a personal choice whether one wants to check out their DNA or not.
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No problem. Hope you are tracing your ancestors to the extent that most of us can. I'm stuck at 1740. Not my fault, the entries are just not there. I still feel a failure.
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1740? That's great!! My own surname line, Johnston, I haven't been able to trace before 1854! I did DNA testing to see if I could figure out who the father of my great-grandfather Peter Johnston (b.1854 Fyvie, Abd, Scotland) was. I have his name James, but Abd. is full of James Johnston's. So, I did DNA testing. My closest DNA relatives with Johnston are from Nova Scotia and Virginia!! Now I have wild theories of American colonists in Virginia, being loyalists and going to Canada after the Rev. war. Then one of them went to Abd. and became a farm servant?
But I've had some great success with DNA - my Scottish great-grandmother's tree confirmed to 1600, My English great-grandmother's Roberts line to 1790, and most awesome my Romany line, which had been hidden from my father and his sibs by his grandmother - her family moved to Canada in 1912 and the words Romany or Gypsy were never spoken again.
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Quite an achievement Janicejo, well done.
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Regorian - you can have your DNA tested at Ancestry.com, wait till there's a sale and save some money. Once you get the results, transfer the DNA results to Gedmatch. That site has tools where you can find even very small amounts of South Asian DNA. If you don't have any, you're still Romany because it's a culture as well as an ethnic group. With Ancestry you're more likely to find more distant cousins than other sites. Just be prepared to have a lot of them freak out at the mention of Romany Gypsy and stop talking to you.
The thing that puts me off Autosomal/admixture testing is that.
It only tests a small part of your dna (as of course does the male only Y Haplo test)
You will have different results from your siblings, even though you share the exact same ancestors. That tells you something about how dna testing cannot tell you where your ancestors came from
All of us, alive today, migrated out of Africa, and then moved around the world. Europeans are made up of people who migrated here in waves of immigration across the south east/eastern borders of what we now know as "Europe"
Then there is the more recent migrations and settlements. The large extent of the Roman Empire for example and also the British Empire and others. When soldiers and sailors might have married someone from a far off place, or settled here from a far off place.
Not enough Europeans have taken the tests and the data base, for comparison purposes, is very very small?
I might be wrong here but it is not surprising that any "European" peoples results will show very small traces from say the middle east or north Africa, because these traces could be from thousands, or even tens of thousands, of years ago?. I think I read somewhere that the smaller the trace is, the further back in time it is? So a South Asian autosomal trace might not be Romany at all , it may be from way back before the Romany migrations into Europe (about c 1200 AD) even started. It might be from 1,000 BC or even 10,000 BC ?
How far back do these small percentages, that you see in the results, go ?
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Could some ASI on MDLP K13Ultimate indicate Romany ancestry?
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Hurworth - I haven't checked out the MDLP tests yet. That's because I found the Eurogenes K-12B test works best for ME. Depends on your parent's ethnic mix. I have West European and East European, so that test works best for me. I'll try to look at that test later, if you don't hear from me in a few weeks, you might have to remind me. Sally Yorks - the Autosomal DNA is 95% of your DNA, so I don't consider that very small. Also with the Autosomal DNA tests, "trace" means any ethnicity under something like 5%. But then you can look at your individual matches, and for me, I have 22 cM DNA with a Romany man in England, and that is no trace of DNA. That's 4 to 6 generations back. A match that is 7 cM long or longer, is from 1600 AD or sooner. So there is a way find if the DNA is from the migration from India (that began 500-700 AD, but isn't completely known). I'll come back later and write a longer response to your arguments.
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No problem. Hope you are tracing your ancestors to the extent that most of us can. I'm stuck at 1740. Not my fault, the entries are just not there. I still feel a failure.
And this is where DNA might come in useful. On my father's side I am stuck in 1776; possibly through illegitimacy. On my mother's side her father had the surname Ayres, which I am told is a gypsy surname. I, and the entire audience was also told at a Doncaster FHS open day by a senior man in the Romany FHS that the gypsies had originated in Afghanistan. Is this correct, or did people from South Asia settle in Afghanistan?
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We're Romany from Sussex and Kent, and we believe that Romanies come from Nepal. But they've travelled so far over so many years they've picked up Romania, northern Italy, France and many other areas....
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rebekahm28 - there has always been much talk that my father's West Sussex family were Romany but despite researching for 20 years I've never found the hard evidence. I have a GedMatch id - can I share that with you?
Thanks
M.
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Yes can you private message me on here. Let me know their surnames too.
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I've made some progress in expanding my Romany branch of my family tree! Working with my one Romany DNA cousin (24 cM of DNA shared), we think I relate thru his great-grandmother Mary Jane Steaton. She was born in Bilston, Staff, in 1865. Her parent was Sarah Steaton, who had a few brothers and sisters. I also have made friends with a friendly English guy, who is related by marriage to these Steatons, a much bigger tree. One of Sarah Steaton's sister's married a Kite. I have another DNA match that is related thru the same Kites. Just collecting names of families that my DNA matches have, I've been able to connect 3 of my Romany DNA matches' together - but as people who married each other! No common ancestors so far. The families are in Staffordshire and Warwickshire: Stanley, Jeffrey or Jeffries, Davis, Davies, Kite. I'd like to know how families came to be allied - would it have been possible that there was intermarriage back in the 1700's, that kept the families together into the 1800's? "Friendly English guy" has been a big help, but he wants RECORDS showing births, marriages, death...doesn't living in the same house count?!!!
Hope you all have a good holiday. I'm hoping Santa brings me more ancestors and cousins.
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Thought I would chime in. I'm a confirmed Romany descendent of the Campbell clan via Scotland. My ancestors settled in Virginia (or were convicted there, not sure) in the 1700s. This is all new to me but i feel like my family hid this from me because when i brought it up to my grandfather it was as if he knew all this. My haplogroup is H1a1- H-M82. When I do autosomal tests i do get trace % from Middle East, Caucasus, Greek/Mediterranean, Southern European, etc. Which i found odd because I always thought my Dad was German and Scottish. But now i believe these trace amounts are from his Romany background. I've posted my GEDmatch results here. My mom's side is 100% Ashkenazi Jewish dating back into the 1700s.
I just recently ordered the kit for FTDNA because I want to help as many people out with our unique background.
Sincerely, Robert Berkley Campbell
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Hi Robert - good that you are doing FTDNA as well, I'm on there too in case we match. When you get your results there, transfer them to GEDmatch.com, its free, you get more matches, and you might be able to learn something from the ethnicity display on your chromosomes. Its also pretty technical, but I try to help all my Romany kin. I find this site pretty good, and there are links to other informative sites: http://rtfhs.org.uk
Recently I got a DNA match to a 3rd cousin, Andrew. He first showed up on my Ancestry list of matches as his photo. And I thought, "He's one of my Romany cousins". And he is!! Andrew, my son Rick, me, and my nephew David all have tan coloring in a family of white people. Like me, Andrew didn't know about his Romany heritage until he did DNA.
About your gypsy ancestors being sent here for being "criminals", a whole lot of gypsies were rounded up and sent just because they were gypsy. So many that, on Ancestry DNA (mostly Americans tested so far), I get all these American DNA matches with Asia South DNA, and none of them knew about their gypsy background. In fact, a few of them thought they had Native American ancestors.
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Thanks for the response. Would my current kits from 23andme and Ancestry work to see if we are a match or do we need to use the haplogroup results?
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Thought I would chime in. I'm a confirmed Romany descendent of the Campbell clan via Scotland.
Hi again
I'm not sure I am reading this right, but I don't think there is any evidence that a 'Campbell Clan' are 'Romany'.
In another topic you say your family 'adopted' the surname 'Campbell'? Did this happen in the USA and at what date?
My ancestors settled in Virginia (or were convicted there, not sure) in the 1700s.
Do you mean Convict Transportation?
The vast majority of convicts transported to Virginia/the American colonies were English and most of those transported were from the London area, at over 50% of all transported convicts being convicted in London. Scotland had a separate legal/court system and did not use transportation as much as a punishment as England/Wales did.
This is all new to me but i feel like my family hid this from me because when i brought it up to my grandfather it was as if he knew all this. My haplogroup is H1a1- H-M82. When I do autosomal tests i do get trace % from Middle East, Caucasus, Greek/Mediterranean, Southern European, etc. Which i found odd because I always thought my Dad was German and Scottish. But now i believe these trace amounts are from his Romany background. I've posted my GEDmatch results here. My mom's side is 100% Ashkenazi Jewish dating back into the 1700s.
I just recently ordered the kit for FTDNA because I want to help as many people out with our unique background.
Sincerely, Robert Berkley Campbell
A Y Haplo result group H could suggest Romany origins but it could also be for other reasons, especially in a country built on immigration like the USA.
In an 'autosomal' test, the 'trace results' are unreliable. This is from the ancestry FAQS page
"4. What does it mean when my ethnicity results identify 'Trace Regions'?
Most people may have a percentage identified with 'Trace Regions' in their genetic ethnicity results. Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%. Since there is only a small amount of evidence that you have genetic ethnicity from these regions, it is possible that you may not have genetic ethnicity from them at all. This is not uncommon, and as more genetic signatures are discovered with a higher confidence level, we may be able to update these Trace Regions over time."
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About your gypsy ancestors being sent here for being "criminals", a whole lot of gypsies were rounded up and sent just because they were gypsy. So many that, on Ancestry DNA (mostly Americans tested so far), I get all these American DNA matches with Asia South DNA, and none of them knew about their gypsy background. In fact, a few of them thought they had Native American ancestors.
The peak of transportation, to the American colonies, came after the Transportation Act of 1717 and lasted up to the AWOI and the change over to transporting convicts to Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Act_1717
There was nothing in the above England and Wales act that suggested the 'rounding up' of Gypsies and transporting them just for being Gypsies. It was not a specific 'crime' to be 'a Gypsy'.
Some Gypsies were convicted of crimes, as were many others, and transported but most chose to emigrate of their own free will and mostly emigrated after the AWOI.
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They must have assimilated and taken a popular name of whatever village they settled at. I'm not disputing the trace results, I already know that FAQ response, but just interesting how every site I've uploaded my data too seems to sprinkle in that extra designation that would suggest my family was from another area before migrating to Scotland a few hundred to a 1000 years ago.
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They must have assimilated and taken a popular name of whatever village they settled at. I'm not disputing the trace results, I already know that FAQ response, but just interesting how every site I've uploaded my data too seems to sprinkle in that extra designation that would suggest my family was from another area before migrating to Scotland a few hundred to a 1000 years ago.
What is the earliest record you have, names dates and places, for your Campbell ancestors?
Is it one of these two?
'John W. Campbell (c1825), Rockingham Co., Virginia- Unknown Origin - H-M82'
'Ephriam Campbell (1845) - Scotland - H-M82'
Shown here in the chart linked below
Campbell DNA Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Campbell?iframe=yresults
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Only to about 1870. David Jerome Campbell, born in Rockingham Virginia. Father to my great grandfather Berkley Mathias Campbell. He was also born there.
I've been reading that it was at that exact location where a Scottish Romanichal family with the last name Campbell settled in the mid 1700s.
Piecing together with my DNA is how I became aware of such evidence for my potential descent patrilineally.
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Only to about 1870. David Jerome Campbell, born in Rockingham Virginia. Father to my great grandfather Berkley Mathias Campbell. He was also born there.
I've been reading that it was at that exact location where a Scottish Romanichal family with the last name Campbell settled in the mid 1700s.
Piecing together with my DNA is how I became aware of such evidence for my potential descent patrilineally.
Because Campbell is not really a commonly known Romany surname and the result does not fit other Campbell results, it might also suggest that the 'father' of the 'H haplo' line was not a legitimate Campbell. In other words, the wife/mother had a child by a different man than her Campbell husband?
The bolded number below is the same tester
Campbell DNA Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Campbell?iframe=yresults
267576 John W. Campbell (c1825), Rockingham Co., Virginia- Unknown Origin - H-M82,
56137 Ephriam Campbell (1845) - Scotland - H-M82
H Haplo Group Project - Y-DNA Classic Chart
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/YHaploGroupH?iframe=yresults
267576 Campbell -Unknown Origin - H-M82
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I have been working on my family tree for over two years. Unfortunately I don't know the stories of the people, I only know the names and birthdates. Most of my ancestors on my mother's side were from some small village in France all the way back to the early 1600s. My Father's Side, however has been a bit of a challenge but the stories I heard from him where that his family came from County Cork Ireland, and he is Scotch Irish. What I didn't know until recently, was that my grandfather on my father's side changed his name. That's right, I could not get past my first paternal grandfather because for the last year's I had always been looking for him under the last name Cook. I found out that he and my uncle or great-uncle, we're all born with the last name Crook. I decided to do the DNA test, and then I ran it in the genmed. I used ancestry. What I found was quite surprising, as I came back with 69% Great Britain, England, Wales, Scotland, and 10% Iberian Peninsula with Spain, and Portugal. My mix was mostly Eastern European. When I started reaching out to some of my DNA matches, someone responded asking me if I had Gypsy route. He based it on the fact that two of my last name, Romboy and Crook both showed up in Gypsy genealogy journals. I would like to know more about this, because I expected I would be French Irish and Scottish. I don't have living family to test or ask about my history, so right now, it's all a mystery.
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I have to dispute this, it certainly was a crime just to be born a Gypsy in England, under the Tudor Egyptian Acts, carrying the death penalty, and this was not repealed until the 1780s. The last execution were reportedly carried out in the 1650s. I will shortly be publishing my own research into the early British Gypsy communities, undertaken over last decade, and these contain abundant examples of Romanies transported to the colonies, the earliest dated to 1669, following an order made the same decade suggesting the Gypsy 'problem' was solved this way, rather than by executions. Romany surnames are also present in the lists of vagrants earlier rounded up in the capital and transported 1618-1620. There is also clear evidence of transportations from Scotland in the early 18th century.
There can be no doubt that those in America carrying H1a1- H-M82 are direct paternal descendants of the the original proto-Gypsy communty that left India circa 1000 AD, as that is well established by various genetic studies, and though some will be from later migrations, a good many will and do descend from individuals transported there from 1660-1774.
In returning to the original post, my Gypsy ancestry is quite far back on maternal line, 19th century, but shows up in my mtDNA haplogroup U3b, which is the dominant maternal haplogroup for Romany people in Western and Northern Europe, and is also present in Eastern Europe in rates significantly greater than surrounding non-Gypsy populations. I also get 1.1% South Asian on the autosomal.
About your gypsy ancestors being sent here for being "criminals", a whole lot of gypsies were rounded up and sent just because they were gypsy. So many that, on Ancestry DNA (mostly Americans tested so far), I get all these American DNA matches with Asia South DNA, and none of them knew about their gypsy background. In fact, a few of them thought they had Native American ancestors.
The peak of transportation, to the American colonies, came after the Transportation Act of 1717 and lasted up to the AWOI and the change over to transporting convicts to Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Act_1717
There was nothing in the above England and Wales act that suggested the 'rounding up' of Gypsies and transporting them just for being Gypsies. It was not a specific 'crime' to be 'a Gypsy'.
Some Gypsies were convicted of crimes, as were many others, and transported but most chose to emigrate of their own free will and mostly emigrated after the AWOI.
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I have to dispute this, it certainly was a crime just to be born a Gypsy in England, under the Tudor Egyptian Acts, carrying the death penalty, and this was not repealed until the 1780s.
It was not a crime to be 'born a Gypsy', it was a crime to be involved in 'palmistry' & other similar 'frauds' and this applied to non Gypsies too.
The 'Egyptians Act' (1530)
...statute forbade any more Gypsies from entering the realm and gave those already in England sixteen days' notice to depart from the realm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians_Act_1530
The above does not equate to a 'death penalty' for being 'born a Gypsy'
I have seen early 'Egyptian' criminal & other records and it is often unclear as to whether
1 They are actual Gypsies or a mixture of Gypsies and other itinerant locals, who are both living 'outside the law'. The Winchester Confessions clearly documents the latter, & early intermarriage
http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/pubs5a.html
2 Whether or not the sentences were actually carried out.
Many early Romany probably soon went native and intermarried with the locals, itinerant agricultural labourers for example or metal workers who they could share their skills with. Like any new arrival, they would have been compelled to do this in order to 'fit in' and spare themselves being deported later.
The last execution were reportedly carried out in the 1650s.
'reportedly' ?
Do you have a source for the report?
I will shortly be publishing my own research into the early British Gypsy communities, undertaken over last decade, and these contain abundant examples of Romanies transported to the colonies, the earliest dated to 1669, following an order made the same decade suggesting the Gypsy 'problem' was solved this way, rather than by executions.
Yes some Romany were transported, but they were transported because they had broken the same laws that applied to everyone else in the country. The vast majority of transported convicts were not Gypsies and unfortunately many, both Gyspy and non Gypsy, were just beggars, orphans or petty criminals stealing to buy food and shelter. Although it has to be said that many convicts had also been found guilty of extremely serious crimes
Romany surnames are also present in the lists of vagrants earlier rounded up in the capital and transported 1618-1620. There is also clear evidence of transportations from Scotland in the early 18th century.
How do you know they were Gypsies just by their surnames? Gypsies had already adopted English surnames . Just because someone had the surname Boswell or Cooper it does not necessarily follow that they were Romany. It is not that simple. I have Coopers in my family, but they were lead miners from Derbyshire and not likely to have been Romany. I also have 'Gypsies' intermarrying in my family but their names hardly ever appear on Romany records and are not common or well known 'Romany' names at all.
Also not to forget that probably the most common Romany surname is Smith. How at these dates can you tell if a Smith is Romany or not?
Scotland had/has different systems of law and did not use convict transportation as much as England
There can be no doubt that those in America carrying H1a1- H-M82 are direct paternal descendants of the the original proto-Gypsy communty that left India circa 1000 AD, as that is well established by various genetic studies, and though some will be from later migrations, a good many will and do descend from individuals transported there from 1660-1774.
Some Americans might well be descended from a Romany convict transportation, many millions in the USA are descended from everyday transported convicts as well, but there are also other possibilities. The British Empire spanned half the globe, it employed many Indians and Africans in its Royal, and also merchant, navy. Lascars for example.
Most British Romany migrated to the USA long after convict transportation had ended. You can see they are Romany quite clearly because of the 19th century detail in the records. But earlier records are not detailed
In returning to the original post, my Gypsy ancestry is quite far back on maternal line, 19th century, but shows up in my mtDNA haplogroup U3b, which is the dominant maternal haplogroup for Romany people in Western and Northern Europe, and is also present in Eastern Europe in rates significantly greater than surrounding non-Gypsy populations. I also get 1.1% South Asian on the autosomal.
I am unclear as to why you think this mtDNA haplogroup U3b result means your ancestor was 'Romany'? https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mt-dnau3/about/background
I also get 1.1% South Asian on the autosomal.
'autosomal' tests cannot tell you your 'ethnicity', especially below 15%.
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I am certain from my own research it was a specific offence to be an 'Egyptian' until 1780s, which is a Gypsy, so effectively Romanies were criminalised from birth. (The death penalty for this offence was a later ammendment to the act in Mary's reign). I am certain people were executed for it in the United Kingdom, in the century from 1560-1660, and have several different examples with names, in my forthcoming books. Similarly with the transportees I have examples from 1669 onwards of Romany people (including Smiths) transported to America. 100% indisputedly Romany people, with evidence again, from both sides of the pond. I won't go into detail here, but again this will be in my books for those who care to know about this period in history.
"'autosomal' tests cannot tell you your 'ethnicity', especially below 15%."
You are correct there. I never suggested it can. Just adding my contribution that as someone whose maternal line is Romany, documented in the records, this shows in my DNA in the haplogroup U3b, which is the dominant mtDNA halpogroup for Romanies in Western and Northern Europe. This possibly also shows in the autosomal results as the 1.1% South Asain..possibly not. But given that the community is insular, originates in India, and Indian Y Haplogroups are still found in levels from 20-60% across Europe, and maternal Indian haplogroups too in smaller proportion, I'd be surprised if a great deal of Romany people didn't show South Asain in some proportion. I believe the Romany DNA project of Donald Locke and the Leicester University British Romany DNA project both confirm this with average results ranging from 1 to 15% (from memory).
Thanks for your input to my post Sally.
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To add to the above, here is one example of Scottish Romani persons being transported to Virginia, which is not an area I have covered in my books, where I concentrate on the English and Welsh community:
FAA, Mary
Gypsy. Prisoner in Jedburgh Tolbooth. Banished at Jedburgh, 30 November 1714. Transported via Glasgow on a Greenock ship, master James Watson, by merchants Robert Buntine of Airdoch, James Lees and Charles Crawford to Virginia, 1 January 1715.
FAA, Peter
Gypsy. Prisoner in Jedburgh Tolbooth. Banished at Jedburgh, 30 November 1714. Transported via Glasgow on a Greenock ship, master James Watson, by merchants Robert Buntine of Airdoch, James Lees and Charles Crawford to Virginia, 1 January 1715.
At least twelve others specifically identified as Gypsies in the book 'Directory of Scots Banished to the American Plantations, 1650-1775', surnames Faa, Baillie, Brown, Fenwick, Lindsay, Hamilton, Ross, Yourston, Hogg, Hutson.
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Also maybe need to clarify my statement on Y Haplogroup H1a - M82. It is estimated as 1,000- 2000 years old and is found in India today. H1a - M82 with marker 425 = 0 null is exclusive to the Romani community. No other M82 population so far has been identified as carrying M82 with the 425 = 0 null marker mutation outside the Romani Gypsy population. So a result of H1a - M82 makes Romani ancestry a strong possibility, which can be further confirmed by the presence of the marker 425 = 0 null.
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Another little addition to your post Sally. The early surname in my works I speculate may have been Gypsies, were actually members of the Powell family who were rounded up in the capital as vagrants and shipped to Virginia 1618-1620. I wouldn't deem much significance from Boswell or Cooper appearing on such lists, as neither of those surnames can be definitely proven to be in use amongst British Romanies until the 1670s. But Powell repeatedly appears in earlier Tudor and Stuart records as a surname used by 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies', and is particularly linked to the capital. It was still in use amongst Romanies in the 20th century in the same region. I have shied away from identifying them as such in my work, because of course non Romany vagrants may have also carried the surname, and no great detail is given on these early individuals. But it remains a possibility, and it would perhaps be more surprising if no Gypsies at all were among those early vagrants sent to America.
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Campbell is listed by Walter Simson in his 1865 ‘A History of the Gipsies’ as one of the most ‘prevailing names’ in use amongst Scottish Gypsies. [page 117]
Also mentioned on [page 208]:
Matthew Baillie had by Mary Yorkston, a son, also named Matthew, who married Margaret Campbell, and had by her a family of remarkably handsome and pretty daughters. Of this principle Gypsy family I can trace, distinctly, six generations in descent, and have myself seen the great great grandchildren of the celebrated William Baillie. Mary Yorkston went under the appellation of ‘my lady’ and the ‘duchess’, and bore the tile of queen, among her tribe.
And [page 226]:
One [Gypsy Male] by the name of Campbell, well known by the title of Dr.Duds traversed the South of Scotland, accompanied by a number of women. He prescribed and sold medicines to the inhabitants, and several odd stories are told of the very unusual, but successful cures performed by him.
Since there is evidence of their relations the Yorkstoun/Yourtsons and Baillie's being transported to America from Scotland in the early 18th century, its possible Campbells were too.
Only to about 1870. David Jerome Campbell, born in Rockingham Virginia. Father to my great grandfather Berkley Mathias Campbell. He was also born there.
I've been reading that it was at that exact location where a Scottish Romanichal family with the last name Campbell settled in the mid 1700s.
Piecing together with my DNA is how I became aware of such evidence for my potential descent patrilineally.
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Thank you for the wonderful information. At the 67 marker genetic testing via testing I am genetically related to William Bailey from Scotland.
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Really? There's lots of great information on the Bailey family in Simsons book too, if you've not read it I would recommend getting hold of or downloading a copy. It is the best book I have read on Scotland's Romani population. He covers England too though in not as great detail.
Thank you for the wonderful information. At the 67 marker genetic testing via testing I am genetically related to William Bailey from Scotland.
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I'll definitely look into it. I just checked ftDNA and I'm confirmed H-M82 and i have the 425 = 0 null marker.
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I am certain from my own research it was a specific offence to be an 'Egyptian' until 1780s, which is a Gypsy, so effectively Romanies were criminalised from birth. (The death penalty for this offence was a later ammendment to the act in Mary's reign). I am certain people were executed for it in the United Kingdom, in the century from 1560-1660, and have several different examples with names, in my forthcoming books.
Could you please provide the evidence, in England/Wales law, that 'Romanies' were 'criminalised from birth' and thus subject to the 'death penalty' just for being born 'Romany'.
Also evidence of 'executions'.
Similarly with the transportees I have examples from 1669 onwards of Romany people (including Smiths) transported to America. 100% indisputedly Romany people, with evidence again, from both sides of the pond. I won't go into detail here, but again this will be in my books for those who care to know about this period in history.
I already 'know about this period in history' and I also know a fair bit about Crime and Punishment', especially convict transportation.
I have no doubt that some, a small minority, of the many convicts who were transported to the colonies were Romany but they were transported because, like the rest, they broke the law.
You say you have 'evidence' that Romany Gypsies were transported or executed specifically just for being a Gypsy, but you do not post any laws or examples, just that 'it will be in my book'.
"'autosomal' tests cannot tell you your 'ethnicity', especially below 15%."
You are correct there. I never suggested it can. Just adding my contribution that as someone whose maternal line is Romany, documented in the records, this shows in my DNA in the haplogroup U3b, which is the dominant mtDNA halpogroup for Romanies in Western and Northern Europe. This possibly also shows in the autosomal results as the 1.1% South Asain..possibly not.
mtDNA spans thousands of years, ultimately ALL Europeans migrated from outside Europe at certain points in the past.
... But given that the community is insular, originates in India, and Indian Y Haplogroups are still found in levels from 20-60% across Europe, and maternal Indian haplogroups too in smaller proportion, I'd be surprised if a great deal of Romany people didn't show South Asain in some proportion. I believe the Romany DNA project of Donald Locke and the Leicester University British Romany DNA project both confirm this with average results ranging from 1 to 15% (from memory).
Thanks for your input to my post Sally.
I know about the Leicester project but that was a Y haplo scientific study and was nothing to do with Donald Locke or any commercial Family History DNA testing. As far as I remember it, Donald Locke's ancestors left Britain for America in the late? 19th century.
Y haplo testing is not the same as mtDNA testing and the mtDNA result you refer to does not originate in 'India'
It is true that some Romany men will have the Y haplo group, but this is only a test for one male direct line, and more importantly, there would have been other routes/reasons, apart from Romany migration, for this group appearing in Europe
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To add to the above, here is one example of Scottish Romani persons being transported to Virginia, which is not an area I have covered in my books, where I concentrate on the English and Welsh community:
FAA, Mary
Gypsy. Prisoner in Jedburgh Tolbooth. Banished at Jedburgh, 30 November 1714. Transported via Glasgow on a Greenock ship, master James Watson, by merchants Robert Buntine of Airdoch, James Lees and Charles Crawford to Virginia, 1 January 1715.
FAA, Peter
Gypsy. Prisoner in Jedburgh Tolbooth. Banished at Jedburgh, 30 November 1714. Transported via Glasgow on a Greenock ship, master James Watson, by merchants Robert Buntine of Airdoch, James Lees and Charles Crawford to Virginia, 1 January 1715.
At least twelve others specifically identified as Gypsies in the book 'Directory of Scots Banished to the American Plantations, 1650-1775', surnames Faa, Baillie, Brown, Fenwick, Lindsay, Hamilton, Ross, Yourston, Hogg, Hutson.
These are 'border Gypsies'.
Again, this is no different to the transportation of vagrants, beggars or others who led an itinerant lifestyle 'outside the law'.
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Also maybe need to clarify my statement on Y Haplogroup H1a - M82. It is estimated as 1,000- 2000 years old and is found in India today. H1a - M82 with marker 425 = 0 null is exclusive to the Romani community. No other M82 population so far has been identified as carrying M82 with the 425 = 0 null marker mutation outside the Romani Gypsy population. So a result of H1a - M82 makes Romani ancestry a strong possibility, which can be further confirmed by the presence of the marker 425 = 0 null.
No, what it means is that you have a shared ancestor with someone from the Indian sub continent. Unless you can provide the paper trail proof of Romany in your family, it is still conjecture.
There are remains found in Roman and Medieval graves in this country with these markers.
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Another little addition to your post Sally. The early surname in my works I speculate may have been Gypsies, were actually members of the Powell family who were rounded up in the capital as vagrants and shipped to Virginia 1618-1620.
I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
The Romany are predominately English and Welsh, especially numerous in the south of England
I wouldn't deem much significance from Boswell or Cooper appearing on such lists, as neither of those surnames can be definitely proven to be in use amongst British Romanies until the 1670s. But Powell repeatedly appears in earlier Tudor and Stuart records as a surname used by 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies', and is particularly linked to the capital.
Boswell and Cooper are significant Romany names. They appear time and again in records and date back to very early records.
Which records does Powell appear in? I have to admit, it's a new one on me
It was still in use amongst Romanies in the 20th century in the same region. I have shied away from identifying them as such in my work, because of course non Romany vagrants may have also carried the surname, and no great detail is given on these early individuals. But it remains a possibility, and it would perhaps be more surprising if no Gypsies at all were among those early vagrants sent to America.
Vagrancy was a big problem, yes some of the transported probably were Romany but as you say the early records do not give any great detail.
I have seen 'Gipsey' mentioned in convict transportation and court records, for example a Gypsy, among others, was sentenced to death for his role in the Gordon Riots (1780), but they were transported or executed because they had committed serious crimes, and with non Gypsies who had also committed the same type of crime. They were not transported or executed just for being 'a Gypsy'.
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I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
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I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
Maybe you could post them for richarde1979 ?
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Searched on "Powell" and "Forest of Dean"
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=75&query=%2Bsurname%3Apowell~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22forest%20of%20dean%22~
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Searched on "Powell" and "Forest of Dean"
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=75&query=%2Bsurname%3Apowell~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22forest%20of%20dean%22~
Which ones are Romany?
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Which ones are Romany?
I didn't say they were. I was pointing out that it's not necessarily an Irish or Scottish surname.
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Which ones are Romany?
I didn't say they were. I was pointing out that it's not necessarily an Irish or Scottish surname.
Yes come to think of it, its probably more of a Welsh surname?
My post in reply to richarde though was about not hearing of any Powell 'Romany' before. But then I don't always think you can go by surnames anyway.
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Sally you seem to want to argue for argument's sake. I am a researcher with decades of experience, and am satisfied my research is well evidenced and sourced, and will stand by its own merits when published. You are welcome to buy those books, and take an opposing view if you wish, no bother to me, people are free to disagree, there is no right or wrong in history, just arguement, and counter arguement.
My interpretation of the Tudor laws is nonetheless shared by the leading Romani expert on the planet. That's good enough for me:
"By Cromwell's time a century later, it had become a hanging offence not only to be born a Gypsy, but for non-Gypsies to associate with Gypsies."
The Pariah Syndrome Ian Hancock. 1987. Lecturer in Romani studies at the University of Texas, Austin, Director of the Romani Archives and Documentation Center, Romani representative to the US Holocaust Council. Author of over 300 books and articles on Romani people.
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For others who might be interested, here is a link to a short essay I have written for my own family tree on my maternal haplogroup U3b. It is very rare in Northern Europe. Some genetic websites claim it is totally non existent in the U.K, others existent but at rates of well under 0.5%. I'm proof it does exist, and have to date found five others who have tested with it here, four of whom were Romani, two Boswells. The non-Romani carrier is possibly also a maternal descendant of Romanies, as she has no idea from where it originates in her tree. It is the dominant maternal haplogroup amongst all Western and Northern European Gypsy populations so far extensively DNA tested , i.e Spain, Portugal, Lithuania and Poland, so is very likely the same in U.K.
Since it is consistently linked to non-Gypsy nomads from it's first appearance in Iron Age Europe, through to the modern day, potentially it may provide clues to the early formation of the Romani people and culture.
https://www.docdroid.net/06KIP7C/haplogroup-u3b.pdf
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I am unaware of anyone outside the Romani community ever testing as Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 with marker 425 = 0 null, and have read every major Romani DNA study to date (and a few minor ones besides!) I would be very surprised if it has turned up in Roman and Medieval graves in this country. I would like to see your source and link for that please Sally, that would be deeply significant if true.
I do remember quite a hubub caused a few years back when a DNA sample from an 11th century grave in Norwich supposedly contained 'Romani mtDNA', but it was thoroughly debunked afterwards. The scientist who made the discovery pointed out he had from the start listed a Gypsy connection as the least likely of all scenarios, but the media had misinterpreted or twisted his words and not bothered to read the actual report. It turned out to be from a person of Balkan or Near East extraction, possibly bought back as a slave during the crusades.
Also maybe need to clarify my statement on It is estimated as 1,000- 2000 years old and is found in India today. H1a - M82 is exclusive to the Romani community. No other M82 population so far has been identified as carrying M82 with the 425 = 0 null marker mutation outside the Romani Gypsy population. So a result of H1a - M82 makes Romani ancestry a strong possibility, which can be further confirmed by the presence of the marker 425 = 0 null.
No, what it means is that you have a shared ancestor with someone from the Indian sub continent. Unless you can provide the paper trail proof of Romany in your family, it is still conjecture.
There are remains found in Roman and Medieval graves in this country with these markers.
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The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.
But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.
I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
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Sally you seem to want to argue for argument's sake.
Our debate started when you replied to my reply to another poster
I am a researcher with decades of experience, and am satisfied my research is well evidenced and sourced, and will stand by its own merits when published. You are welcome to buy those books, and take an opposing view if you wish, no bother to me, people are free to disagree, there is no right or wrong in history, just arguement, and counter arguement.
My interpretation of the Tudor laws is nonetheless shared by the leading Romani expert on the planet. That's good enough for me:
"By Cromwell's time a century later, it had become a hanging offence not only to be born a Gypsy, but for non-Gypsies to associate with Gypsies."
The Pariah Syndrome Ian Hancock. 1987. Lecturer in Romani studies at the University of Texas, Austin, Director of the Romani Archives and Documentation Center, Romani representative to the US Holocaust Council. Author of over 300 books and articles on Romani people.
Ian Hancock is also, quote, a 'political activist'. He has his opinions on Cromwell, as many 'political activists' do, but I have mine.
I have books by Hancock, but personally I prefer Angus Fraser's book, The Gypsies
The Pariah Syndrome (Hancock) is a book about the holocaust. I am in no doubt whatsoever that Gypsies, over time, have been persecuted in Europe for their ethnicity and during the second world war they were victims of an horrific and sustained genocide.
My point and questions to you are not about the second world war. I have repeatedly asked you to provide primary source evidence that
'...a whole lot of gypsies were rounded up and sent just because they were gypsy...'
'... it certainly was a crime just to be born a Gypsy in England...'
'...The last execution were reportedly carried out in the 1650s...'
'...abundant examples of Romanies transported to the colonies, the earliest dated to 1669,...'
'...Romany surnames are also present in the lists of vagrants earlier rounded up in the capital and transported 1618-1620...'
'... it was a specific offence to be an 'Egyptian' until 1780s...'
'...executed for it in the United Kingdom, in the century from 1560-1660, and have several different examples with names,...'
'...examples from 1669 onwards of Romany people (including Smiths) transported to America. 100% indisputedly Romany people, with evidence again, from both sides of the pond. I won't go into detail here, but again this will be in my books..'
'...I speculate may have been Gypsies, were actually members of the Powell family who were rounded up in the capital as vagrants and shipped to Virginia 1618-1620...'
I understand you are writing a book and keeping your research back, but The Old Bailey Online and The Middlesex Sessions Rolls, to mention two primary sources, are already freely available online and in the public domain. Could you please provide names, dates, places and primary source evidence for the above claims made.
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The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.
But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.
I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
Yes you are writing a book, but it is usual in Family History circles to provide evidence. It is one thing to make a claim about our ancestors but if we do that we also need to list the primary source too, in order for other researchers to know that the claims are true and documented.
Census
Parish records
Criminal records
Newspapers
Ships manifests and so on
Could you please post the primary source evidence, re bolded in your quote above, that you have found about the 'Tudor' era 'Powells'?
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SallyYorks and Richarde1979: I have read your posts and found them very interesting. I'll let the two of you handle the historical disputes, as I have been a gypsy for only 2 years now. The only thing I can add is my father was told something before he went off to WW2, that made him think he was Jewish! That's how impossible it was for his mum to tell him her family was gypsy and in the community while back in England, before they immigrated in 1912. My Dad lived his entire life thinking his dark complexion was the result of a sunburn, and my brother and I, well we're dark because we're Californian. I encourage everyone to come out, tell their family stories good and bad, so we can preserve the history of the English gypsy community.
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I will respectfully decline to do that, largely because we are now derailing this thread which is specifically about what one would expect to find in DNA results with Romani ancestry, rather than evidence of specific Romani families in the Tudor and Stuart era.
My research began with exploring the Romani lines on my own family tree and has since snowballed into a general interest in the early history of the Romani community in Britain. It has consisted of a great many hours, days, months and years of research, travel and good hard slog and spending a not inconsequential sum of my own money. I am not as eminent a scholar as Dr Hancock, merely a humble history graduate, albeit with two decades experience in genealogical research. Obviously though I have a good grounding in proper research methods and am satisfied my work is well sourced and evidenced. It would be counter intuitive for me to make my research, or large portions of it, freely available online before it has been published.
I did not write these books (plural..there are eight in total!) for any prestige or financial gain. I haven’t had any and neither do I expect any, though I do hope they will interest and help others with similar family histories to mine. I hope you purchase the books and read them Sally, as you clearly are interested in the subject. If you disagree with my methods or conclusions, (I suspect you might!), you are as free as anyone to write and publish your own books countering my conclusions, offering your own research and alternative ideas. I look forward to you doing so. But unless you wish to specifically discuss Romany DNA with me, I will leave it at that for this thread.
The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.
But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.
I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
Yes you are writing a book, but it is usual in Family History circles to provide evidence. It is one thing to make a claim about our ancestors but if we do that we also need to list the primary source too, in order for other researchers to know that the claims are true and documented.
Census
Parish records
Criminal records
Newspapers
Ships manifests and so on
Could you please post the primary source evidence, re bolded in your quote above, that you have found about the 'Tudor' era 'Powells'?
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Hi janicejo. Great to hear your family story. My mother and grandfather are not particularly dark skinned, but both have, or had, jet black hair. They were at times taken for Jews living in East London, as on occasion I have been myself. We expected Ashkenazi Jewish might show up somewhere in our DNA, but it didn't. For my mum, the dark hair might have come from her 19th century maternal Romani ancestors, but as her father also has it, more probably originates with his forebears in the west of Ireland.
SallyYorks and Richarde1979: I have read your posts and found them very interesting. I'll let the two of you handle the historical disputes, as I have been a gypsy for only 2 years now. The only thing I can add is my father was told something before he went off to WW2, that made him think he was Jewish! That's how impossible it was for his mum to tell him her family was gypsy and in the community while back in England, before they immigrated in 1912. My Dad lived his entire life thinking his dark complexion was the result of a sunburn, and my brother and I, well we're dark because we're Californian. I encourage everyone to come out, tell their family stories good and bad, so we can preserve the history of the English gypsy community.
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SallyYorks and Richarde1979: I have read your posts and found them very interesting. I'll let the two of you handle the historical disputes, as I have been a gypsy for only 2 years now. The only thing I can add is my father was told something before he went off to WW2, that made him think he was Jewish! That's how impossible it was for his mum to tell him her family was gypsy and in the community while back in England, before they immigrated in 1912. My Dad lived his entire life thinking his dark complexion was the result of a sunburn, and my brother and I, well we're dark because we're Californian. I encourage everyone to come out, tell their family stories good and bad, so we can preserve the history of the English gypsy community.
In my experience the English Romany are quiet reserved people, gentle even. Not because they find it 'impossible' to talk about their family heritage or are trying to hide it away, just that it is their nature to be reserved and quiet about things. I was brought up told that to call oneself 'a Gypsy', you would have to have both parents with Romany heritage.
Yes the history is very interesting.
I would recommend the Angus Fraser book I mentioned earlier. It is an academic book but is easy to understand, clear, comprehensive, non-partisan and fully referenced
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I will respectfully decline to do that, largely because we are now derailing this thread which is specifically about what one would expect to find in DNA results with Romani ancestry, rather than evidence of specific Romani families in the Tudor and Stuart era.
You decline to share any primary sources, already in the public domain, yet you have no qualms about repeatedly mentioning your forthcoming books and you now say the thread is being derailed.
My research began with exploring the Romani lines on my own family tree and has since snowballed into a general interest in the early history of the Romani community in Britain. It has consisted of a great many hours, days, months and years of research, travel and good hard slog and spending a not inconsequential sum of my own money.
Join the club!
I am not as eminent a scholar as Dr Hancock, merely a humble history graduate, albeit with two decades experience in genealogical research. Obviously though I have a good grounding in proper research methods and am satisfied my work is well sourced and evidenced. It would be counter intuitive for me to make my research, or large portions of it, freely available online before it has been published.
This is a Family History website and people usually share their research
Census
Parish records
Newspapers and so on
I did not write these books (plural..there are eight in total!) for any prestige or financial gain. I haven’t had any and neither do I expect any, though I do hope they will interest and help others with similar family histories to mine. I hope you purchase the books and read them Sally, as you clearly are interested in the subject. If you disagree with my methods or conclusions, (I suspect you might!), you are as free as anyone to write and publish your own books countering my conclusions, offering your own research and alternative ideas. I look forward to you doing so. But unless you wish to specifically discuss Romany DNA with me, I will leave it at that for this thread.
There are Romany Gypsies (real Gypsies, from a real Gyspy background) online, on this site, and on other sites like RomanyGenes, who have spent many many years and hours of their free time researching and sharing their information. They are probably some of the best historical researchers out there.
They do this because they want to share their family history. They might not have been to college or university or had much schooling but what they do do is ,very kindly, provide documentation and primary sources and they share it for all to see.
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Sally, you just seem to be a particularly argumentative and confrontational person. Whether you are aware of it or not you come over as impolite. As it happens someone with a genuine connection to the Powell family asked me for more information and I gladly provided it through PM. You only have to look through my past posts to see I have selflessly helped people throughout many years as a genealogist. I have made a great many good friends and contacts on the way. My books are one more way of doing that. Again I hope you read and enjoy them. I won't respond to pointless baiting as it adds nothing to the thread. Have a good day and best of luck with your research.
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To return this thread to point, here is a quote from a recent (2013) DNA study of Iberian Romanies:
'Distinct genetic hallmarks of their past and migration route were detected, namely: an ancestral component, shared by all Roma groups, that reflects their origin in India (H1a-M82; ∼17%); an influence from their long permanence in the Balkans/Middle-East region (J2a1b-M67, J2a1b1-M92, I-M170, Q-M242; ∼31%); traces of contacts with European populations preceding the entrance in the Iberian Peninsula (R1b1c-M269, J2b1a-M241; ∼10%); and a high proportion of admixture with the non-Gypsy population from Iberia (R1b1c-M269, R1-M173/del.M269, J2a-M410, I1b1b-M26, E3b1b-M81; ∼37%)'.
This mix has been shown to be not too dissimilar in other Western and Northern European Romani populations. I believe the ongoing Leicester University study of British Romani DNA has discovered much the same mix of Y Haplogroups, with the Indian H1a-M82 at slightly higher levels of 22-23%.
Mt DNA Haplogroups show greater diversity, probably reflecting the greater ease with which females were assimilated into Romani society, but nevertheless the two main ones present are M5a1b (believed to be ancestral to India) and U3b (believed to be a later Middle or Near Eastern assimilation).
The South Asian origin does sometimes show in the autosomal results, sometimes not. To quote Donald Locke on his smaller study, which has so far identified over 30 different Romani families across Europe, each carrying the same Y H1a-M82 Haplogroup with the null value 425 marker mutation -
"Some show very little South Asian, others have high South Asian percentages".
Some or all of these findings in DNA results might indicate Romani origins, particularly if they can be backed up on the paper trail. They also give lie to the idea 'a Gypsy', can only be said to be someone with both parents Romani. The evidence is there loud and clear, insular as Romani culture is, they have nevertheless been mixing and assimilating outsiders quite happily for the last thousand years, both male and female. The 'pure blood' nonsense was a myth largely perpetuated by non-Gypsy scholars and linguists in the 19th century, with disastrous consequences for many.
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Interesting reading. My greatgranfarther married outside Gypsy communitey. Would my grandad have been a Gypsy we thought so but I never meet him died young wud he be excepted by them ? is dad Ambrose Mills is on 1881 census with granfarther Moses Smith, norn 1816 in Hertford. Is moses in any of your book richaerde79??
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Hi Bobmills6, my own family line also originates with 19th century Smiths. I have written a book on the Romany Smith family, though it is not published just yet. Checked my research files and this is the info I have for your Moses, starting with his baptism and that of his siblings:
1] Thomas Smith, son of Benjamin and Mary Smith ‘Trampers’ baptised at Datchworth, Hertfordshire on 7th Feb 1808.
2] Moses Smith, son of Benjamin Smith, and Mary, baptised at Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire on 12th February 1815.
3] James Smith, son of Benjamin Smith ‘a stranger’ and Mary, baptised at Aspeden, Hertfordshire on 28 Sep 1817.
4] Sylvester Smith, daughter of Benjamin Smith ‘labourer’ and Mary, baptised at Bengeo, Hertfordshire on 1 July 1821.
5] Caroline Smith, daughter of Benjamin Smith and Mary, baptised at Graveley, Hertfordshire on 9 oct 1825.
6] Sharlender Smith, aged 12, daughter of Benjamin Smith ‘Tinker’ and Mary, baptised at Datchworth, Hertfordshire on 27 July 1828.
7] Jemima Smith, daughter of Benjamin Smith ‘Tinker’ and Mary, baptised at Datchworth, Hertfordshire on 18 July 1830.
8] George Henry Smith, son of Benjamin Smith ‘Brazier’ and Mary baptised at Hertford All Saints on 17 Feb 1833.
He might be the Moses Smith who married Rebecca Harris at Thorley, Hertford, 13 Oct 1845. He is stopped alongside several families, including Harrises, on the 1861 census:
1861 Census, caravan, Chipping Barnet, Hertfordshire
Moses Smith 42 Tinman and brazier at the Fair
Fanny Smith 40 wife
William Mills, 26 mat maker at the fair
Sarah Mills, 24 wife, mat maker at the fair
Charles Grosvener, 16, lodger, mat maker at the fair
John Mills, son, 4
Alice Mills, dau, 3,
A John Anderson and his family are also there that year and he had appeared in the following newspaper report with Moses eight year earlier:
Chelmsford Chronicle, Essex 14th October 1853 - Saffron Waldon – 'William Hoadley, Moses Smith, C. Lee, Wn. Stone, and John Anderson, gipsies, were convicted of lighting a fire and creating a breach of the peace at Little Ilford’
As you already have him on the 1881 census, and I see in your other thread someone else has found him in 1891 at the ‘Hole’ in Loughton, I wont replicate that info again. He died there later that same year, death cert ref:
Moses Smith, age 65, Oct-Dec 1891 Epping, Essex, Vol 4A Page 153.
Might be worth ordering a copy of that that if you don’t have it already. Death was also reported in his local paper:
Chelmsford Chronicle, Essex October 1891 - Death of a Local Character.—Moses Smith is dead. In Loughton and its neighbourhood he was well known as an " eccentric." He followed the avocation of a travelling tinker, and had lived for a number of years at a place called the "Hole."
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I think the Romany and Traveller Family History Society may have published some books on Smiths, if you check their website. The late Terence Lee also published two books on the Smiths but they are difficult to get hold of. He built up an impressive database of Romani parish register entries, which he made available through record offices, and complimented with several self-published works. In my own small way I’m following his example. I had some interaction with him, shortly before he passed, where he expressed satisfaction at the standards I had put in place for my sources and evidence, which he evidently felt was lacking in some researchers. Gordon Boswell who owned and run the Romany Museum in Lincolnshire, was similarly supportive when I visited him with my family, and expressed interest in writing his own autobiography with help, but sadly this did not come to fruition, as he too unexpectedly passed just months later. I regret that neither man, who each did so much in their own way to record, share and preserve Romany heritage in the U.K, will see the finished work, but their support and encouragement was appreciated and is not forgotten. Once published I intend to share my own database of more than a thousand early sources, many original discoveries, with the Anglo-Romani Heritage Project, a great free online resource. There’s already much useful information on the Smiths there, so worth checking for your family on there if you havn’t already.
Whether your grandad would have been considered a Gypsy or not is difficult to say one way or another. I have Romani ancestry and genes, and close Romani family, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, nieces and nephews, but I don’t call or consider myself a Gypsy, so wouldn’t presume to judge who are, or are not, so called ‘Real Gypsies’, from a ‘Real Gyspy background’, (whatever that might mean). I can only say in my experience an upbringing among the community is more important than blood lines, the importance of which tends to be overstated. My brother in law’s family is a good example of that. They originate in the union between a non-Gypsy man, and a Romany female [Ayres] in the late 1890’s. The next generation, his great grandparents, who married in 1916, was also a mixed marriage, his great grandfather marrying a local non-Gypsy girl. The family lived on fixed sites travelling seasonally after WWI, and from the late 1950’s moved permanently into houses, but have never been thought of anything other than fully Gypsy within and without their community.
The idea of unmixed bloodlines is a myth, and probably always has been. The conclusion to the same DNA study quoted before reflects a similar reality, where lifestyle and upbringing trumps genes:
We contest the common idea that Gypsies in general are an extremely closed group. The minimum estimate of around 37% as the proportion of male admixture that had already occurred in Iberia is in clear contradiction with the stereotype. This high rate of lineage assimilation means that through adoption of a socio-cultural style of life, many people became and are becoming Gypsy (and vice-versa). More than reflecting a biological/linguistic entity, the term “Gypsy” must be perceived as a social construct in a continually changing environment.
Thanks for the interest in the books Bobmills6, and best of luck with your own research.
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I have to figure out how to put a picture of myself here, to show you what I looked like when I was younger (and healthier!). I sure didn't look like a white girl. People would ask me, "what are you? Are you an Indian?" Meaning our Native Americans (I'm pretty old!). Maybe I would follow the English Romany norms if my grandmother had TOLD us (my poor Dad spent most of his adult life thinking he had a "sunburn"!!), but, seeing as I'm in the states and most people have no idea what a Romany is here, I use "Romany gypsy". And I have some North African DNA too, so maybe I'm Egyptian too ;D.
Back to what you would see on your DNA test: If you put your DNA data on GEDmatch, and your Romany DNA will show up as "South Asian". The best "ethnicity tool", actually a test, for me is "Eurogenes K-13". There are some options, and the default option gives you a pie chart. If you go down the list of options to "chromosome painting", you can see exactly where on each chromosome your Romany DNA is! Now I have 2.6% South Asia DNA. Averaging a 50% loss with each generation, my Dad had 5%, Grandmum 10%, g-grandma 20%, and 2g-grandma 40% - she was the one who married out of the Romany community. My South Asian DNA mostly shows as sizable chunks 1 - 5 cM long on my chromosomes. Every once in a while, I find little specks of it too. Most of these specks I also share with my maternal 1st cousin on the Ukrainian side. I'm theorizing that I got a little Romany DNA on my Ukrainian side from centuries ago, why that's broken into bits.
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Thanks for all the great information richarde1979 inow have them back a further generation didn't know moses parents. I will try the websites you gave see if anything on him there. Goof luck with the book. Bob
I think the Romany and Traveller Family History Society may have published some books on Smiths, if you check their website. The late Terence Lee also published two books on the Smiths but they are difficult to get hold of. He built up an impressive database of Romani parish register entries, which he made available through record offices, and complimented with several self-published works. In my own small way I’m following his example. I had some interaction with him, shortly before he passed, where he expressed satisfaction at the standards I had put in place for my sources and evidence, which he evidently felt was lacking in some researchers. Gordon Boswell who owned and run the Romany Museum in Lincolnshire, was similarly supportive when I visited him with my family, and expressed interest in writing his own autobiography with help, but sadly this did not come to fruition, as he too unexpectedly passed just months later. I regret that neither man, who each did so much in their own way to record, share and preserve Romany heritage in the U.K, will see the finished work, but their support and encouragement was appreciated and is not forgotten. Once published I intend to share my own database of more than a thousand early sources, many original discoveries, with the Anglo-Romani Heritage Project, a great free online resource. There’s already much useful information on the Smiths there, so worth checking for your family on there if you havn’t already.
Whether your grandad would have been considered a Gypsy or not is difficult to say one way or another. I have Romani ancestry and genes, and close Romani family, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, nieces and nephews, but I don’t call or consider myself a Gypsy, so wouldn’t presume to judge who are, or are not, so called ‘Real Gypsies’, from a ‘Real Gyspy background’, (whatever that might mean). I can only say in my experience an upbringing among the community is more important than blood lines, the importance of which tends to be overstated. My brother in law’s family is a good example of that. They originate in the union between a non-Gypsy man, and a Romany female [Ayres] in the late 1890’s. The next generation, his great grandparents, who married in 1916, was also a mixed marriage, his great grandfather marrying a local non-Gypsy girl. The family lived on fixed sites travelling seasonally after WWI, and from the late 1950’s moved permanently into houses, but have never been thought of anything other than fully Gypsy within and without their community.
The idea of unmixed bloodlines is a myth, and probably always has been. The conclusion to the same DNA study quoted before reflects a similar reality, where lifestyle and upbringing trumps genes:
We contest the common idea that Gypsies in general are an extremely closed group. The minimum estimate of around 37% as the proportion of male admixture that had already occurred in Iberia is in clear contradiction with the stereotype. This high rate of lineage assimilation means that through adoption of a socio-cultural style of life, many people became and are becoming Gypsy (and vice-versa). More than reflecting a biological/linguistic entity, the term “Gypsy” must be perceived as a social construct in a continually changing environment.
Thanks for the interest in the books Bobmills6, and best of luck with your own research.
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Thanks Bob Mills and Richarde for the last post. I had not read Richarde's post that Bob had quoted till now. I particularly liked this, "The idea of unmixed bloodlines is a myth, and probably always has been. The conclusion to the same DNA study quoted before reflects a similar reality, where lifestyle and upbringing trumps genes:". Also the information about Spanish DNA coming with Romany. I have little Spanish DNA, but my full brother David has 9%. Some of the DNA matches that I have to English Romanies still in the community, the DNA we share in common is Iberian. I have a low level DNA match to an Spanish-American Romany at the same piece of DNA. And then I lots of good DNA matches to people who had never heard of "Romany", at South Asian DNA stretches.
In contrast, some of my Romany DNA matches, I can trace their ancestors living together on the same street or in the same house back in the 1800s. Families who probably were 2nd cousins to each, living in close proximity. I want to draw some charts showing the relations with DNA matches, and where their ancestors lived then, its pretty interesting.
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They also give lie to the idea 'a Gypsy', can only be said to be someone with both parents Romani. The evidence is there loud and clear, insular as Romani culture is, they have nevertheless been mixing and assimilating outsiders quite happily for the last thousand years, both male and female. The 'pure blood' nonsense was a myth largely perpetuated by non-Gypsy scholars and linguists in the 19th century, with disastrous consequences for many.
No one here is suggesting "'a Gypsy', can only be said to be someone with both parents [who are] Romani." or said anything about "'pure blood'"
...Back to what you would see on your DNA test: If you put your DNA data on GEDmatch, and your Romany DNA will show up as "South Asian". The best "ethnicity tool", actually a test, for me is "Eurogenes K-13". There are some options, and the default option gives you a pie chart. If you go down the list of options to "chromosome painting", you can see exactly where on each chromosome your Romany DNA is! Now I have 2.6% South Asia DNA...
...Also the information about Spanish DNA coming with Romany. I have little Spanish DNA, but my full brother David has 9%...
Commercially available Autosomal DNA testing is unreliable at guessing ethnicity. It might be useful for connecting with distant relatives, but it cannot tell you your 'ethnic' makeup. The testing companies even tell you this in their FAQS 'legal' information.
quote
"4. What does it mean when my ethnicity results identify 'Trace Regions'?
Most people may have a percentage identified with 'Trace Regions' in their genetic ethnicity results. Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%. Since there is only a small amount of evidence that you have genetic ethnicity from these regions, it is possible that you may not have genetic ethnicity from them at all. This is not uncommon, and as more genetic signatures are discovered with a higher confidence level, we may be able to update these Trace Regions over time."
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/faq#about-2
unquote
The unreliability of these, so called, 'ethnicity' tests has been discussed in many topics on rootschat's 'Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing' section
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/
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Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote there then why I asked richarde1979 opinion on it. My granfarther did not have both parents Romany heritage but I was always told he travelled and called himself a Gypsy. I was confused, but Richarde1979 has explained it well to me and i u derstand
now thanks. I was brought up told that to call oneself 'a Gypsy', you would have to have both parents with Romany heritage.
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My grandfather Samuel Ayres (1868-1935) was the son of James Ayres (1844-1923) and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941) seems to have been of gypsy stock (cf Ayres/Brignell wedding photo 1896 on this site). He married Melinda Brignell in 1896 and they had 3 daughters, Doris (1897-1970), Winifred (1898-1997) and Emily (1903-2003) (my mother) Doris in particular was very dark skinned, with dark brown eyes , and blue wiry hair, Winifred was less dark with blue eyes, but still the shock of hair. My mother, Emily had black hair, but a fairer skin. Her eyes were blue, but her right eye had one brown segment. Doris and to a less extent Winifred could easily be taken for Southern Europeans.I had a Y DNA test, but soon must have the other test as well to see what that tells me.
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I want to clarify my position on South Asian DNA: it is ONE indicator of Romany heritage. After I tested on Ancestry DNA, I was contacted by a member of the Stanley family in America, telling me I was likely connected to him thru Romany heritage. Then I transferred my DNA data to GEdmatch, where my largest X DNA match is a man in the English Romany community. Mr. Stanley had told me that my Romany ancestor was likely my Smith, Cooper, or Riley line. The Riley line is a perfect X match for me. So at this point, I have my South Asian DNA, 2 DNA matches, both of whom have ancestors back in Staffordshire. These are clues, but not proof. Proof came when a 2nd cousin of mine took a DNA test, and we found each other. Oh yeah, she says, "we spoke the language in our house and I still remember some". Her grandfather was my grandmother's brother! Because my Dad moved to California, and my grandmother's family was up in Canada, we only visited Grandma and my 1st cousins when we went up to visit. Much later on, when my aunts were very old, they gave us a picture of their grandma and her other kids.
In conclusion: I am from a Romany family, that left the English community in 1912. Some of my 2nd cousins still know a lot more about our family connections than I do.
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The Iberian study was on the Romani commmunity in Portugal. Whilst it found lots of admixture with the surrounding populations, it did not neccesarily find that there was any significant amount of Romani DNA in the non Gypsy population. By that I mean the Indian haplogroups are found almost exclusively in the Romani population, rarely ever in non-Romany Europeans. The number of European Romanies who have tested are however relatively small, which is unsuprising given the recent history of racial profiling in the 20th century. I know alot of Romani people are reluctant to test and suspicious of the technology. There is also the potential for discrimination within the community itself. In the 19th century families who were darker complexioned or spoke 'deeper' Romanes, were at times singled out as somehow more authentically 'Gypsy' than others. This could be mirrored in the modern age, with families carrying the Indian DNA Haplogroups, and higher percentages of South Asain autosomal results, being singled out in the same manner, both by those outside the community and some inside. I know of one local family who have tested, and were quite dissapointed to find their Y-haplogroup was European and Scandinavian. As far as they knew their family had always been Romani for centuries. The fact is the DNA studies give tools which can indicate Romani ancestry, but there is no such thing as 'Romani DNA'. One 'Rom' might have both Haplogroups traceable to India and lots of South Asain in their Autosomal results, another might have none of these, but both are still 'Roms'. The long history of nomadism and admixture is reflected in very variable DNA results.
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So i got my DNA and im nothing what i was told. What am I . 52% west europ. 16% Great Britain. 16% irland scottland, 13% liberian. 2% scandi, 1% east eroup. So i thought i was Native then romni what am I who do i belong help.
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Troublet: Are you Iberian or Liberian? Either could be giving you a dark complexion. Also have you checked your ethnic make-up on GEDmatch? The Eurogenes K-13 test there will show "South Asian" if it is there.
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Hi,
I was just wondering if people of Romany decent get a lot of different results on all the DNA tests?
I always get about 10-25 percent of my results very questionable, where as the rest is always very similar. of the 10-25 percent i always get different results varying from this list...
West Asia
India
Ashkenazi jew
Eastern Europe
Iberian
Azerbaijan jew
south russia
or they can't place it anywhere
I don't know my dads side, but I'm very white... was just wondering if anyone thinks i should look into possible Romany connections???
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Yes they do get different results. Not all Romany or Romany descent people have South Asian DNA. They all did when they left India, but it got watered down on their trek to Europe and in Europe as well. I recently found a 4th cousin of my on the side of my Romany 3g grandparents, we don't share any DNA, and he doesn't have 'South Asian' DNA either. And he's still a dark skinned man.
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My nan was from Romany traveling people in the Hereford,Shrewsbury and Shropshire area she would tell me story's of her people and teach me some romaness but said not to say anything to my family as Thier not interested in my life she said, some of my family have also said we come from travellers but most of my family say it's a lie and call me a liar saying my nan never said the things said to me and have made me feel like a laughing stock to people which made me feel angry and silly at the same time so I stopped talking about it and done my ancestry DNA and I clicked on the south Asian even though it didn't show but when I clicked it it showed a percentage of me to native south Asians compering Me to them picking up traces of south Asia, sorry for the long message I got a bit carried away. Theses are my ancestry DNA results what do you think? Do they look like a typical English Romany's DNA? My mother's side are Irish hence the 57%
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Not all Romany's show Asia South anymore. 2 Romanies with a low percentage of Asia South could have kids and the kids could be Zero. My 2nd cousin says her parents taught her some Romany words when she was little, but also not to tell anyone. I believe you!! Write down everything you can remember, then got to the http://rtfhs.org.uk/ website and enter their discussions, they will know the answer.
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Hi I have little paper trail but have stories of ''gypsy'' no one said Romany or Irish and gaps where I don't even know the relation. This happened with my granddad down my dads side and great granddad down my mums side. Thanks any reply appreciated.
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This is another chart from Gedmatch thru HarappaWorld. Thanks
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A really good source is the Romany&Traveler site: rtfhs.org.uk: there are lots of articles you can read. There's one about what to look for in censuses and old records to identify if your ancestors were in the Romany community. Like occupation, family names, children's names, where they were living, who their neighbors were. I would add having DNA matches to people currently in the Romany community. My ancestor WIlliam Riley 1st shows up at his 1st marriage, he is a shoemaker. His 2nd wife Elizabeth, my ancestor, her son Henry worked in the mines as a "Puldler'. One of his grandchildren was named Cinderella. He sometimes had young men with the surnames Price and Stanley boarding with them.
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Hi thanks for replying. My 3 xgreat granddad (father of my grandma fathers side as don't know fathers side) was a basket maker as was his son and then his son (my great granddad) was a stone mason. But Im sure plenty of non traveller did this too. I also saw a shoe maker it had a fancy name I forget but the description was maker of finely crafted luxury footwear lol. Then I had a green grocer. But they had addresses on the census. Except the 2 x great granddad moved from london to sunderland to halifax but maybe means nothing. Their surname is walker. The south Asian side all comes from my mum but we haven't a detailed history of my mums mothers side. Just haplogroup H. My mums dad side I dont think there is any traveller connection anyway. So its either from my mums mother or my dads mother and father.
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Oh the x 2 grandfather dads side had boarders aswell. And they had 8 and 10 kids each time. All with double names some usual but alot very bland like john william was always passed down. Or mary.
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By the time of the 1841 census my family had settled too. I think the mining companies were willing to hire Romanies. But with some of the censuses, it appears that my ancestors were living in work camps with other Romanies. It seemed that some groups settled together. I was able to follow one of my Romany DNA matches' ancestors living next door to another one of my matches.
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Haha the rest of the job descriptions were nearly all coal miners but I know there were alot of non traveller working down the pit too. I can't see any indication of any camps but the south Indian/Baloch then Mediterranean east then west europe DNA is from my mums mum side and the paper trail which was done by the same lady (we got her to do all three known grandparents) but looking last night the reason its not detailed is because she hasn't put down their residence or job only their names and how many kids. But she did with my dads mums side and My mums fathers side. I will inquire into this reason.
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Oh my gosh this sounds like my family but its my mums dads side I thought south asia was my mums mum side cos it was female line. Maybe it took it from my grandads mother.
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=107
on mine I remember the children having double names Ill have to look after work but I know one was Orlando it didnt say what the middle name was just the first letter. But was alot of children. Ill be back tomorrow with more :) :)
Thankyou so much for the tips
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Hi all, I don't know if this is the correct forum for me but an unexplained 5% South Asian ethnicity in my Ancestry results has brought me here.
The main candidate in my paper trail is my unconfirmed GGG Grandfather John Thompson, a labourer, born in Bath, Somerset, UK in 1777. His son Joseph Thompson (confirmed GG Grandfather) was also born in Bath in 1815. "A Negro" is noted on Joseph's baptismal records at St James, presumable relating to his father John.
My ethnicity results show the following:
Ancestry South Asia 5%
Harrappa World Baloch 12.06
SW-Asian .29
Dodecad V3 West Asian 8.33
South Asian 2.43
SW-Asian .07
Eurogenes K13 West Asian 7.57
South Asian 2.01
East_Med 1.30
Should I pursue the possibility that John Thompson, or perhaps some other ancestor, may have had some Roma blood, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thanks
Rod ???
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buckyb
The surname Thompson was present amongst England's Romany population from the late Tudor era, being first noted in East Anglia in the 1590s. Below are the records I have identified for them in the following centuries:
17th century = Yorkshire x 2, Surrey, Cambridgeshire, Leicestershire, Shropshire
18th century = Hampshire x 6, Surrey x 2, Cambridgeshire x 2, Nottinghamshire, Staffordshire, Leicestershire, Yorkshire, Suffolk
19th century = Hampshire x 5, Essex x 4, Sussex x 2, Dorset x 2, Gloucestershire x 2, Norfolk, Somerset, Leicestershire, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Kent, Surrey
20th century = Hampshire x 4, U.S.A x 4, Dorset, Gloucestershire,
As you can see from the mid-18th century they were particularly associated with the New Forest in Hampshire, but were still noted travelling in many other English counties, including Somerset, and by the 20th century were also travelling across the U.S.A.
I think it would be impossible to identify your Thompson's as Romany people just on your DNA results, but that said if you do show some South Asian, but no African, it does raise the possibility certainly. I have two or three other examples of Romanies described a 'Negroes' or 'Black men' in late 18th century and early 19th century records. A clerk may have described them in such terms if they were particularly dark skinned.
Do you have your Halpogroups? If this is your direct paternal line, father to son, your Y Haplogroup might provide some extra information. H1a1a-M82 is particularly associated with European Gypsies. It almost certainly originated in the earliest Indian populations, and is still seen in rates from 80% in Eastern Europe, to around 25% in Western Europe. It is not usually found in other Europeans. The absence of the Haplogroup of course doesn't disprove Romany ancestry, but the presence of it is a big indicator. In that respect it might be more use to you then the autosomal ethnicity estimates.
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Bucky - it's a good possibility that you have a connection to the Romanys of England, just go back as far as you can, and look for DNA matches to people currently in the Roma community. There's always a chance that an Indian person migrated to England in 1700s-1800s and is your ancestor.
My father got his military training for WW2 in Canada wiith people from all over the commonwealth, he fondly talked of meeting Maori's from New Zealand. He was raised to respect all people by his Scottish father and his "Romany but passing for English" mum. I don't fault her for making that choice. But my Dad and his siblings would have enjoyed know their heritage, as I finally get to do.
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Many Thanks richarde and janicejo
Your input is most appreciated.
Just to add a little more information, my full Ancestry ethnicity is Irish 55%, Europe West 21%, Great Britain 11%, Asia East 8% and Asia South 5%, trace regions are less than 1%. All the ethnicity apart from Asia South correspond to my family tree and paper trails. The Asia East relates to my great grandfather who came to Australia under the indenture labour scheme in the 1840s, he came from Xiaman (then Amoy). All my Ancestors arrived in Australia prior to 1852.
my Gedmatch ethnicities show very little African: Harappa world nil, Eurogenes Sub-Saharan .48, Dodecad Paleo_African .08.
John Thompson married an Elizabeth Monk at St James Bath in 1812. I have been unable to ascertain how their son Joseph came to Australia, he could have been sent out as a convict.
Sometime back I made contact with a dna match from Gedmatch with the surname Ford, he told me he had a lot of tinker/traveller dna in him, which didn't mean a lot to me at that time. I checked one to many matches on Gedmatch with him and came up with 45 matches on chromosome 2. I noticed that one of his y halogroup matches was H1a1 (not sure if this has any connection to H1a1a-M82).
Unfortunately my male line is broken as it goes through Joseph Thompson's daughter.
I will try to make contact with some of the 45 matches with Jim Ford to see if any belong to the Roma community. How do I find the people currently in the Roma community?
Any more help, comments or suggestions would be most appreciated.
Thanks Rod
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Richarde1979; Just out of curiosity, I checked The Book of Bob (Click the little house under my avatar) for Thom(p)son. He has them listed 1588 ~ 1933 (Intermittently) in: AYR, BKM, BRK, CAM, CAR, CGN, DEV, DOR, DUR, GLA, HAM, HEF, HRT, KEN, LIN, NFK, NTH, SAL, SOM, SRY, SSX, WAL, YKS.
Interestingly, I see you have Leicester, Staffs, Notts, Glos and Essex, which he doesn't list.
Brilliant illustration of why I'm always at pains to point out to others that the BOB is not, and has never claimed to be, an exhaustive last word work ;)
Thanks for the input :)
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Hello SteveG. Interesting also that Bob has a slightly older sighting of the family, as 1593 was the earliest I've been able to identify. The family were certainly part of the Lambourne site in Epping Forest, Essex before it was forcibly broken up in the early 20th century. I will be publishing my own research on the Thompson family very shortly, early July, with info on all those sources I have been able to identify, there is a link to it here for anyone who is interested:
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/early-gypsy-families-1
Bucky, yes H1a1 is connected, this is what Wikipedia has to say on it:
The primary branch H1 (H-M69) and its subclades are the predominant haplogroups amongst some populations in South Asia, particularly its descendant H1a1 (M52). A primary branch of H-M52, H1a1a (H-M82), is found commonly among the Romani people, who originated in South Asia and migrated into the Middle East and Europe, around the beginning of the 2nd millennium CE
Donald Locke, an American descendant of the British Romany Locke family is doing some great work on this at the moment, just this past couple of months by taking the 'BIG Y' test Family Tree DNA has been able to place him and three other Romany descendants further downstream on the H1a1a-M82 tree, into a newly identified deeper SNP group H-PH124. This is particularly significant as of the three so far tested and falling in this group, one is of Scottish Romani ancestry [Bailey], one is of English Romani ancestry [Locke], one is of Moldovan Romani ancestry [Grigoras]. Despite their geographic distance the fact all three share the same paternal ancestor is strong evidence for the common origin of all European Roms, a fact sometimes disputed. The various theories of different waves of immigration from India over hundreds of years become less likely. It backs up several of the more recent bigger DNA studies which also indicate the origins in a very small group leaving together.
It is a shame you are not on a direct paternal line. I have been monitering Donald Locke's progress from afar, as my Romany family lines and DNA Haplogroup are both maternal, so I am of no use to his study in that respect either. Fascinating stuff all the same. I believe one of the Romany Boswell family, with whom I do share my maternal DNA Haplogroup, will also take the BIG Y test later this year, so that should be interesting.
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Hi all, I don't know if this is the correct forum for me but an unexplained 5% South Asian ethnicity in my Ancestry results has brought me here.
Any trace region result, below 15%, should probably be ignored, as these low numbers are unreliable. This is from Ancestry's FAQ page
https://www.ancestry.com.au/dna/legal/faq#interpret-4
4. What does it mean when my ethnicity results identify 'Trace Regions'?
Most people may have a percentage identified with 'Trace Regions' in their genetic ethnicity results. Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%. Since there is only a small amount of evidence that you have genetic ethnicity from these regions, it is possible that you may not have genetic ethnicity from them at all. This is not uncommon, and as more genetic signatures are discovered with a higher confidence level, we may be able to update these Trace Regions over time.
The main candidate in my paper trail is my unconfirmed GGG Grandfather John Thompson, a labourer, born in Bath, Somerset, UK in 1777. His son Joseph Thompson (confirmed GG Grandfather) was also born in Bath in 1815. "A Negro" is noted on Joseph's baptismal records at St James, presumable relating to his father John.
Should I pursue the possibility that John Thompson, or perhaps some other ancestor, may have had some Roma blood, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thanks
Rod ???
If it says 'negro' at his son's baptism, then he will most likely be of African/part African heritage.
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Thanks Sally
Ancestry show the 5% Asia South ethnicity under the Asia heading and not under trace regions. You state "Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%." Ancestry obviously predicts the percentage as over 5%. That said, I take your point. However why don't I show any African ethnicity?
Perhaps I have the wrong John Thompson.
A little more information I have found on the UK freereg site has what appears to be three siblings of Joseph Thompson, all born at different addresses around Bath,ie Swinford, Stall St, Holloway and Widcombe. The occupation of John is shown as labourer for the first two including Joseph, then copper roller and lastly coppersmith. There is no mention of "negro" on the other registrations.
I don't profess to be an expert on the Roma community, I'm exactly the opposite. However given the South Asia ethnicity, the name Thompson, an apparent dark complexion and occupations akin to the Romani people, I would think there is sufficient reason to look further into finding a connection. I realise that the dna evidence is insufficient so I guess the only other course of action is to see if I have any dna connection to proven current Roma persons.
Richarde thanks for your input I would like to obtain a copy of your research on the Thompson family when published.
Rod (buckyb)
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Rod, whilst I would agree with Sally that 'negro' most usually signifies African or part African heritage in 18th century parish registers, I would just reiterate that I do have isolated examples of other Romany men described as such in parish records, with the same individuals later confirmed elsewhere, in other sources, court documents, newspaper reports, etc, as in fact being Romanies. So though it was by no means common, it DID happen, and is at least a credible possibilty for you, especially as the surname Thompson does have long standing Romany ties in the same general region, and your DNA does not show any significant African traces.
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Thanks Sally
Ancestry show the 5% Asia South ethnicity under the Asia heading and not under trace regions. You state "Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%." Ancestry obviously predicts the percentage as over 5%. That said, I take your point. However why don't I show any African ethnicity?
Perhaps I have the wrong John Thompson.
Even if you had African ancestry, it would not necessarily show because the ancestor is so far back in your tree.
These kind of ethnicity tests are unreliable, especially below results of 15%. They should not be taken too seriously, as posters davidft and DevonCruwys explain here in a link to a rootschat DNA topic
Topic : Just received my DNA results from ancestry
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720079.msg5638447#msg5638447
A little more information I have found on the UK freereg site has what appears to be three siblings of Joseph Thompson, all born at different addresses around Bath,ie Swinford, Stall St, Holloway and Widcombe. The occupation of John is shown as labourer for the first two including Joseph, then copper roller and lastly coppersmith. There is no mention of "negro" on the other registrations.
There would not be any mention of African heritage in records, eg the census, because there was no ethnic classification to fill in on the form and there was no compulsion to record it any UK records. You are lucky to have found such an interesting notation. I have African heritage ancestors (more recent than yours, but before Windrush) and there is no mention of their ethnicity in any of the (UK) records we have seen so far
I don't profess to be an expert on the Roma community, I'm exactly the opposite. However given the South Asia ethnicity, the name Thompson, an apparent dark complexion and occupations akin to the Romani people, I would think there is sufficient reason to look further into finding a connection. I realise that the dna evidence is insufficient so I guess the only other course of action is to see if I have any dna connection to proven current Roma persons.
Richarde thanks for your input I would like to obtain a copy of your research on the Thompson family when published.
Rod (buckyb)
Yes it's always worth looking into, but the very small % of South Asian ethnicity result is also common in most people who take the test and who have no Romani connection, and Thompson is quite a common non-Romani name.
What you could do is google the 'surnames' in your tree alongside 'family tree DNA' and see what comes up for Y haplo results in DNA surname projects/charts. It doesn't necessarily mean you would be related to anyone in the projects but it's worth checking on the off chance for any male line link to yours (I found a very unusual surname in my tree in the Romani DNA project but if I am honest, on its own and without the paper records I found, that wouldn't have been enough).
The Y haplo tests are much more reliable than the 'ethnicity' or 'MTdna tests', which are just too vague or unreliable. But even then, Y haplo is only one male line and so only a fraction of your tree. So a man taking the test could have plenty of male Romani ancestors, but if the direct line isn't Romani, his test result would not show a Romani 'H' Y haplo result.
Good luck though because sometimes a hunch or a feeling does turn out to be correct after all
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...I would just reiterate that I do have isolated examples of other Romany men described as such in parish records, with the same individuals later confirmed elsewhere, in other sources, court documents, newspaper reports, etc, as in fact being Romanies...
Hi again Richarde, could you possibly post these examples, as i'm interested in both Romani and African UK ancestry
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Hello Sally
I hope you are well
this is me michael . its up to you if you believe me, no bother either way, i have been all over the world, most likely traveled more than anyone you ever new, been to South Africa and evan in Mandela's prison cell, been to Cuba and been where Che Guevara is interned, i have evan been to the Artic Circle, Greenland, been in their old tents and Listoned to their Shay-women, i have traveled all over the West Indian Islands and true i have seen Gipsy People in Turkey and Spain and France and Greece and Austria, Germany plus Italy to, most are far darker than the English Romany today, but some are darker than the Indians of today, i think the original Gipsies was well black, real dark, i have seen with my own eyes some who are near black like Africans, i think thats how they were in the beginning, those were the real ones, everyone now is diluted, mixed, there is no hiding behind Old Names, no hiding behind d.n.a, people in this Country are well mixed, there is no hiding behind to just slagging off people who are more mixed, this is just the way it is, but everyone who knows the truth are their relatives, it does not matter about d.n.a or color or names, if you believe in the truth you know the truth, this is but one of the records i have found below, is it true i do not know but i have seen near black Gipsies from over the lands, just read this, and its only an extract, i have found several more such story's but i have also been real close up in several Country's with Gipsy People who have never been in this Land.
Saturday 8 October 1853 Illustrated London News
The Gipsy Slaves of Wallachia
The physical constitution of this unhappy people is strongly marked. The men are generally of a lofty stature, robust and sinewy; Their skins black or copper-colored; their hair thick and woolly; their lips are negro heaviness,and their teeth are white as peals..........
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Thank you all for your inputs. I have found this exercise most enlightening and I have learnt things about a heritage I would have never considered.
I think if I put to the forum that I had Negro heritage based solely on an entry on a baptismal record it would be dismissed. So on the balance of probabilities I would have to go with the South Asia ethnicity.
This could well turn out to be an unsolvable part of my heritage. However I will keep an open mind on both the Romani and Negro potential.
Once again thanks to all concerned, I hope I haven't taken up too much of your valuable time. Hopefully my situation might help others in the same boat as myself and warrants a place in this forum.
Rod
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"The Y haplo tests are much more reliable than the 'ethnicity' or 'MTdna tests', which are just too vague or unreliable"
I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.
That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:
"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly – it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."
In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups, because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.
Despite the very ancient results it typically gives, in terms of Romany people in Europe, or Romany descended people, it is still of clear use and interest, as there are a few haplogroups, including my own, which are almost exclusively seen in the Romany population, but otherwise virtually absent in the wider general European population. In my own case it was crucial in backing up the paper evidence and family lore, and is much more reliable as evidence than trace South Asian autosomal ethnicity results, which as you rightly point out may not always be very reliable and are frequently seen in many tested people.
There are some examples of Romanies noted as 'Black men' or 'Negroes' in relation to prominent UK Romany families, Hearns, Lovells, etc, in my book 'The Early Romany Boswells: A Family History 1650-1810 Part 2', which was published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, in February this year, and is still available:
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/earlyboswells2
There are also several further examples I have identified in relationship to the Romany Smiths, which I will be publishing in my forthcoming work on that family, available January next year. Thanks for the interest Sally.
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Hi Richarde
I was asking more for a primary source, but never mind
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Hi Richarde
I was asking more for a primary source, but never mind
I understand. I of course use and reference primary sources to reach my conclusions. They are freely available to view in the book. I won't go into further detail here, simply as it is not relevent to Romany DNA, the subject of the thread, and as in the past, we would be guilty of diverting this thread from it's primary purpose.
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Hello folks,
I’m new to this site and have just noticed this thread. It’s very interesting.
I would have thought autosomal dna results for someone with Romany ancestry would show Caucasus,Middle East and Eastern Europe along with the usual Scandinavian and Western Europe. All the places the Romany visited on there migration from Asia.
Just a thought.....
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I'm currently wrestling with our family's DNA results, and how it might relate to an ongoing mystery in our tree. In short, my mother's maternal GM is the mystery.
We're not 100% sure who she is or what happened to her. I have several versions mapped out on Ancestry but none fit all the known (supposed?) facts. We also have anomalous DNA results that could shed some light, and as one of the geneaolgy options involve her being a Bargee, the other to and fro movement between East Anglia and the East End of London in the late 19th century, I'm wondering whether she was Roma and if the DNA could support this.
On my mother's paternal side there is definately Traveller connections but it looks like Scots/Irish traveller, though a possible Bargee line has also been unearthed. This has been confirmed to some extent by a distant cousin I've connected with on that side who says her line also had at least married into a Traveller famiy. I have direct ancestors and other relatives recorded on various sources as Travellers, Boat People, Boatmen, Metal Traders, Hawkers, Rope Makers, Weavers and Horse Dealers. The surnames involved are Archer/Ansall, Williams, Abbott, Palmer, Powell and (by marriage) Boswell and Mattin. The famlies are connected with Suffolk/Norfolk, the West Midlands, Southwark and the East End of London.
My mother's maternal line also had a high level of black haired and dark skinned relatives, some with blue eyes some very dark. There was also a bit of a tradition of the women on that line practising backstreet arts like palmistry, dream interpretation etc in the East End.
On to the DNA.
We have DNA on My Heritage, Ancestry and Gedmatch (only just uploaded - not processed and available to match yet). I put it on Gedmatch because there were discrepencies as expected between us and with other relatives on the geneaology sites especially with the lower certainty DNA readings and I wanted a more detailed breakdown from mutiple sources.
The DNA that is shown in both me, my mother and other relatives on that side is a mix that is consistently around 15-20% Hispanic/West Meditarranean, 1% North African, 4-6% East Meditarranean/Caucasus and 1-2% South Asian. We have an extensive family tree and there is no known recent ancestor for this DNA and so far all DNA connections confirm the researched relationships. All we have to go on is some known degree of contact with the Travelling community and this mystery GGM.
When I've looked at the Archaic DNA (don't now if this is useful or not?) along with the mainly European HG/Neolithic mix there's a persistent 4-5% Basal and Iranian Mesolithic with traces of Archaic South Indian and North African.
My understanding is this DNA make up could suggest a Roma ancestor? I'm not so certain how the high levels of Hispanic fit, but there seems to be anecdotal evidence at least of hispanic DNA in UK Roma. Basically, am I potentially on the right track here?
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Hi first time on this wonderful site, visitor from the Netherlands.
In my paternal line I have an ancestor who could be of Romani ethnicity. The only thing I know is that he (Peter FRANCIS) is born around 1827 in the (nowadays) county Haromszek, Transilvania , Romania. So after doing a DNA test for my dad and his sister (my aunt) I was curious on the results in GedMatch. BTW we are Eurasians (60% Indonesia, 40 % Europe).
I also have a Romanian friend whose 4 grandparents are born in Romania and according to her are Non-Roma and we uploaded her DNA kit also to Gedmatch for comparison.
I used the calculators that have Roma, Romani and/or Romanian-b_behar as ethnicity in Oracle4
and indeed those ethnicities are mentioned specifically for my dad/aunt and not for her. So I guess that a) the ethnicity will show up in gedmatch by using the right calculators and b) my ancestor is indeed descended from Romani.
What do you think?
Below are the results for the used calculators in Gedmatch<
MDLP K-23b
Eurasian Romanian
Austronesian 27,80
South_East_Asian 24,01 1,20
Caucasian 12,21 32,21
European_Early_Farmers 10,00 41,35
European_Hunters_Gatherers 9,03 13,17
South_Indian 6,75
South_Central_Asian 2,66 3,61
Near_East 2,05 3,12
North_African 1,70
Australoid 1,42
Eurasian
50% Dai + 50% ROMA_SLOVENIAN @7,5
50% Dai + 25% French + 25% ROMA_BH @2,7
50% Dai + 25% Murut + 25% ROMA_BH @2,7
Romanian
50% Central_Greek_ + 50% Latvian_ @2,9
50% Belarusian-East_ +25% Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ +25% North_German_ @2,5
25% Ukranian-Center_ +50% Crimean_Tatar_Coast_ +25% Swede_ @2,2
==============================================================
HarrappaWorld
Eurasian Romanian
SE-Asian 46,57
NE-Euro 13,06 47,57
Mediterranean 10,92 21,32
Caucasian 9,88 18,04
S-Indian 5,66
SW-Asian 3,94 2,91
Baloch 2,39 7,50
Siberian 1,83
NE-Asian 3,07
Papuan 1,93
Beringian 0,62
Eurasian
50% Iban_Xing + 50% Romanian-a_behar @6,7
50% Iban_Xing + 25% Morocco-Jew + 25% ROMANIAN-B_BEHAR @6,0
50% Iban_Xing + 25% French + 25% ROMANIAN-B_BEHAR @6,0
Romanian
50% romanian-a_behar +50% ukranian_yunusbayev @2,0
50% serbian_harappa +25% slovenian_xing +25% ukranian_yunusbayev @1,2
25% hungarian_behar + 25% serbian_harappa + 25% serbian_harappa + 25% ukranian_yunusbayev @0,7
==============================================================
PuntDNAL K13 Global
Eurasian Romanian
SE-Asia 31,68 1,01
SW-Europe 16,33 28,82
NE-Asia 17,46
NE-Europe 12,77 47,03
South_Asia 8,37
West_Asia 5,70 13,87
SW_Asia 4,35 6,19
Oceania 1,96
Siberia 1,47
Eurasian
50% Luzon + 50% ROMANI @8,7
50% Luzon + 25% Spaniard + 25% ROMANI @5,0
25% Luzon+ 25% Dusun + 25% Spaniard + 25% ROMANI @4,1
Romanian
50% Macedonian + 50% Russian @1,8
50% Estonian +25% French_ +25% Turkish @1,5
25% Estonian+25% Greek_Central+25% Russian + 25% Serbian @1,4
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Just wondering if any people who have Romany ancestry and have tested with ancestrydna have noticed there results change?
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The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.
But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.
I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.
There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
Hi richarde1979,
Am researching Powells, can you forward the title of your book which mentions the Powell & Finch surnames please?
Thank you.
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Hi Kr236rk
The link to the book is here
https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/early-gypsy-families-1
It s due to be published 4th November.
Thanks for your interest
Richard
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And thank you Richard!
Grew up in Norwood, many place names Romani, such as Finch Avenue SE27, have been interested in the Romani People ever since. Only recently discovered the Powell surname in relation to the Romani heritage of this part of South London.
Richard
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I have haplopap group R0 which originated in India I believe? The haplopap group is interesting not just the DNA countries. Although I do have a match with a Bulgarian Roma gypsy lady who lives in the US now. We believe its where my English Romany family originally came from.
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As my mother's maiden name was Ayres I fully expected my MtDNA test to show gypsy origins.
It did in fact show British 15%, Western Europe 84%, the odd 1% being East Africa, South India or "noise".
So I am a bit puzzled.
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Hi all, I don't know if this is the correct forum for me but an unexplained 5% South Asian ethnicity in my Ancestry results has brought me here.
The main candidate in my paper trail is my unconfirmed GGG Grandfather John Thompson, a labourer, born in Bath, Somerset, UK in 1777. His son Joseph Thompson (confirmed GG Grandfather) was also born in Bath in 1815. "A Negro" is noted on Joseph's baptismal records at St James, presumable relating to his father John.
My ethnicity results show the following:
Ancestry South Asia 5%
Harrappa World Baloch 12.06
SW-Asian .29
Dodecad V3 West Asian 8.33
South Asian 2.43
SW-Asian .07
Eurogenes K13 West Asian 7.57
South Asian 2.01
East_Med 1.30
Should I pursue the possibility that John Thompson, or perhaps some other ancestor, may have had some Roma blood, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thanks
Rod ???
Hiya Bucky....Just reading about these dna tests...my brother had one and got the results last week. But instead of helping my research that's taken near 13 years its hindered it. We were 67.7 west/north European..3. odd eastern European..3. odd Irish/ Scottish/Welsh some Iberian/Finnish/ etc (Can't recall precise amounts off top of my head) But not 1 iota of Engish.Which is all fine. We were brought up knowing we were true Romani.
But now because many of the Family names on my dedicated Tree are not showing on my brothers 3,600 matches he's basically told me I have a tree of fictitious Characters ::) I've a proper research paper trail and to keep being told that because some names like Hattrick/Parnham/Kilvington etc do not show I've got this tree all wrong. And his little bits of dna give him ALL his bio family. Needless to say its been upsetting, frustrating and darn right ridiculous. I was so excited when he first told me he had gotten his results...now I wish he'd never gone down that root. Anyone got any advice? It would be really appreciated :'( RosieM
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Hiya Bucky....Just reading about these dna tests...my brother had one and got the results last week. But instead of helping my research that's taken near 13 years its hindered it. We were 67.7 west/north European..3. odd eastern European..3. odd Irish/ Scottish/Welsh some Iberian/Finnish/ etc (Can't recall precise amounts off top of my head) But not 1 iota of Engish.Which is all fine. We were brought up knowing we were true Romani.
But now because many of the Family names on my dedicated Tree are not showing on my brothers 3,600 matches he's basically told me I have a tree of fictitious Characters ::) I've a proper research paper trail and to keep being told that because some names like Hattrick/Parnham/Kilvington etc do not show I've got this tree all wrong. And his little bits of dna give him ALL his bio family. Needless to say its been upsetting, frustrating and darn right ridiculous. I was so excited when he first told me he had gotten his results...now I wish he'd never gone down that root. Anyone got any advice? It would be really appreciated :'( RosieM
Where official paper trails do no match DNA there has normally been an adoption. If you find related families a tree comparison might be the only way to notice anomallies. Who is to say Roma families didn't sometimes have youngsters that travelled with other familes and used their surname instead? I know a married couple whose DNA test shows a shared ancestor but the paper trail does not show this. I just proves that someone was adopted ot the father wasn't the womans official husband.
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Hiya Bucky....Just reading about these dna tests...my brother had one and got the results last week. But instead of helping my research that's taken near 13 years its hindered it. We were 67.7 west/north European..3. odd eastern European..3. odd Irish/ Scottish/Welsh some Iberian/Finnish/ etc (Can't recall precise amounts off top of my head) But not 1 iota of Engish.Which is all fine. We were brought up knowing we were true Romani.
But now because many of the Family names on my dedicated Tree are not showing on my brothers 3,600 matches he's basically told me I have a tree of fictitious Characters ::) I've a proper research paper trail and to keep being told that because some names like Hattrick/Parnham/Kilvington etc do not show I've got this tree all wrong. And his little bits of dna give him ALL his bio family. Needless to say its been upsetting, frustrating and darn right ridiculous. I was so excited when he first told me he had gotten his results...now I wish he'd never gone down that root. Anyone got any advice? It would be really appreciated :'( RosieM
Where official paper trails do no match DNA there has normally been an adoption. If you find related families a tree comparison might be the only way to notice anomallies. Who is to say Roma families didn't sometimes have youngsters that travelled with other familes and used their surname instead? I know a married couple whose DNA test shows a shared ancestor but the paper trail does not show this. I just proves that someone was adopted ot the father wasn't the womans official husband.
Of Course. My brother hasn't actually found anyone directly.. Just some familiar names along with many more. But like I've tried to explain, every family in our tree would need to have taken a test, and on the same site he's done his dna test for EVERY single family name to show up. They only match data thats available to them. I'd challenge anyone to complete a family tree with just a dna match.. Its taken me years with having a triple checked paper trail. It's impossible to connect 2% here and 4% there without hard facts/dates/place/ and starting point.. Crazy. My brother hasn't even started a tree.. To be honest he wouldn't have the faintest. Thank you for the reply. It's appreciated 🤗
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I haven't been here in a while, thought I'd update you. A few years ago, I found out thru DNA, DNA matches, and talking to some new found 2nd-3rd cousins, that my 2g grandmother Caroline Riley was from the Romany community. She was born 1820 in Alrewas, Staffordshire. Her parents were William Riley and Elizabeth "Meriden"(she was marked at Widowed on her marriage record). Caroline had an older brother Henry b.1816 Alrewas. Since the big DNA sales over the Holidays, I've gotten a lot more DNA matches and that helped me find more info: There were records that William Riley was married before, and had children. Now I have a DNA match from one of those kids! And, I got a good DNA match to a Canadian woman whose grandmother was born in Birmingham. Turns out there were "rumors" that her grandmother was a Romany (in a travelling show), and she does have South Asian DNA. I haven't figured out that connection let. But my latest DNA discovery is 7 matches to the Fisher family of Birmingham and later Lichfield, Staff. I think this Phillip Fisher may be the younger brother or the son of Elizabeth Meriden. One of the Fisher siblings also married to the Poulitani family, who were circus performers. All told, I got 9 DNA matches for my Romany side, from the Christmas sale.
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Hello,
I believe my ancestors Alexander Campbell (abt 1795-1839) and Esther Whitney (abt 1797-1847) to be gypsies due to their professions (hawker, match maker) and that they lived in tents. All of their children were born in Hampshire, England.
1. I am understandably having difficulties determining their parents and ancestry (parents not mentioned in marriage documentation).
2. I am very interested in determining if they were in fact gypsies.
I would greatly appreciate any insight as this has been a brick wall for our family for a few decades.
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I'm new to this thread and just started researching the branch of my tree which myself and my siblings were led to believe we had Romany ancestors in. The names I'm looking at initially are: FINCH (Suffolk then Southwark) PETERS & MINNS in Southwark. Occupations include, Agricultural labourer, Horse Dealer, Costermonger, Hawker of vegetables, general dealer, greengrocer. Lots of wonderful stories & an apple & nut farm mentioned with two donkeys called 'Billy Bubbles' & 'Kate Carney'. We have a lot of Scottish DNA but yet to find a Scottish ancestor and most branches are traced back to the 1700's. There are other names which I believe to be travellers too: DURRANT, MADDOX, NORTH, WELLIN, BACHELOR, PHIPPS, WINN, LAMBERT & WHITE.
I see that there were Finch (Finca) 'gypsies passing through' in 1542 and wondered if they harked from Scotland?! I also wondered if it is know where Margaret Finch came from originally and if that was her maiden name or a married name?!
Myself and two siblings had the DNA test and my sister is 37% Scottish compared to me 12% and my bro just 8% and she is the one who has the more olive skin, brown eyes and dark hair whereas I've very pale blue eyes and fair. She's never forgotten an elderly (very Cornish) Aunt asking my Mum "where did you get that dark one too?!"
DNA - we have all got differing results: England & Northwestern Europe, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Germanic Europe, Norway & Sweden through ancestry.com
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As my mother's maiden name was Ayres I fully expected my MtDNA test to show gypsy origins.
It did in fact show British 15%, Western Europe 84%, the odd 1% being East Africa, South India or "noise".
So I am a bit puzzled.
Had an update from FTDNA this very day. I am now all European, and have climbed to 39% British, 41% Western Europe, 15% Scandinavian, and 5% Irish which MIGHT fit in with a traveller connection.
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Hiya Bucky....Just reading about these dna tests...my brother had one and got the results last week. But instead of helping my research that's taken near 13 years its hindered it. We were 67.7 west/north European..3. odd eastern European..3. odd Irish/ Scottish/Welsh some Iberian/Finnish/ etc (Can't recall precise amounts off top of my head) But not 1 iota of Engish.Which is all fine. We were brought up knowing we were true Romani.
But now because many of the Family names on my dedicated Tree are not showing on my brothers 3,600 matches he's basically told me I have a tree of fictitious Characters ::) I've a proper research paper trail and to keep being told that because some names like Hattrick/Parnham/Kilvington etc do not show I've got this tree all wrong. And his little bits of dna give him ALL his bio family. Needless to say its been upsetting, frustrating and darn right ridiculous. I was so excited when he first told me he had gotten his results...now I wish he'd never gone down that root. Anyone got any advice? It would be really appreciated :'( RosieM
Where official paper trails do no match DNA there has normally been an adoption. If you find related families a tree comparison might be the only way to notice anomallies. Who is to say Roma families didn't sometimes have youngsters that travelled with other familes and used their surname instead? I know a married couple whose DNA test shows a shared ancestor but the paper trail does not show this. I just proves that someone was adopted ot the father wasn't the womans official husband.
Of Course. My brother hasn't actually found anyone directly.. Just some familiar names along with many more. But like I've tried to explain, every family in our tree would need to have taken a test, and on the same site he's done his dna test for EVERY single family name to show up. They only match data thats available to them. I'd challenge anyone to complete a family tree with just a dna match.. Its taken me years with having a triple checked paper trail. It's impossible to connect 2% here and 4% there without hard facts/dates/place/ and starting point.. Crazy. My brother hasn't even started a tree.. To be honest he wouldn't have the faintest. Thank you for the reply. It's appreciated 🤗
Update I have not got many dna matches that support my paper trail😁 Kilvington was a huge hit.. It proves who my gtgtgt granny's mother was.. And just as my hunt had led me to Elizabeth Kilvington. Dna is great working along side a well researched paper trail. Not fool proof. But a good starting point. Dna misses people ie it missed my grandfather but hit his father and then his father before that.. It did the same with my Nan, 100% my mother's mum... But connected back in time down that line. A tree is a big help. Otherwise your often chasing snowflakes.. You admit they are there but have no idea why where or when. Hard work. But keep at it everyone.. And time with Dna can produce anything out of the blue to help or hinder..
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Hello everyone
Been a long time since I last posted. A lot has changed over the last decade, DNA knowledge included.
Just some random thoughts on my part in regards to Romany DNA.
This is just my personal opinion, take it or leave it :)
While the autosomal DNA test is a fine test to take, there are limitations to the autosomal test due to DNA recombination. You maybe an autosomal DNA match to some distantly related family members, but not match other distantly related family members.
I do think it is critically important for Romany people to also consider doing the Y DNA and mtDNA tests and not stop short by only doing the autosomal DNA test. When DNA participants limit themselves to a single type of genetic genealogy test, you are to some degree limiting your knowledge, and there is so much more to genetic genealogy then just the autosomal test.
My primary interest is Romany Y DNA ( Y Haplogroup ) origins.
I Y DNA tested back in late 2004 with FTDNA.
I am myself Big Y 500 and Big Y 700 DNA tested, and I was placed in a much deeper SNP that is downstream of H-M82, known as Y Haplogroup H-PH124. I knew back in 2004 that saying that I was in Y Haplogroup H* was far to vague of an answer, and I pushed hard to get us H* men deeper SNP testing.
In 2008, I convinced FTDNA to do a limited Deep Clade SNP test just for us H* men, which they agreed to. 14 H men agreed to pay in advance to have this Deep Clade SNP test made available and that is when the biggest changes started to happen.
It was back in 2008, that we learned all the Roma / Romani / Romany / Gypsy men were in Y Haplogroup H-M82, but again I knew even then back in 2008 that saying we were in H-M82 was to vague of an answer and we wanted better SNP testing. Fast forward to today, I was right in thinking
H-M82 was far to vague of an answer!
Thanks to a small handful of men of Romany ancestry, we now know far better and deeper answers thanks to those whom have done the Big Y 500 or Big Y 700 test which is the most in depth SNP testing available today.
The most interesting aspect of this much deeper SNP testing, is the fact that every Rrom Big Y tested to date, are either positive for H-PH124, or are in an SNP directly downstream of H-PH124.
While I am not a genetic expert, it is plain to me that all the Romany Big Y participants shared a common male ancestor, and I believe that because so far of those Big Y tested, 100% are in
H-PH124 or an SNP directly downstream of H-PH124.
We can look at H-PH124 as being the parent of all SNP's directly downstream, HPH124's descendants so to speak.
The parent branch is H-M82 and thanks to Big Y testing, we now know of one primary SNP that is the parent SNP to all SNP's downstream of H-PH124. The SNP's directly downstream of H-PH124 are: H-BY153075, H-BY224203, H-FT26956, H-PH2261, H-PH2261.
This is pretty compelling evidence to show that since the birth of H-PH124, at least five SNP's were branched off of H-PH124, which indicates to me that regardless their surnames used today, that they all shared a common male ancestor some where back in time, an ancestor whom may have been born some time with in the last 3000 years, or less.
We could not have known those facts with out the use of Y DNA and SNP testing, the autosomal test can not replace the need for Y DNA and SNP testing.
According to multiple Romany DNA studies done since 2001, all those studies came to the same conclusion that suggested that in up words of 30% to as high as 50% of the Romany male population carried Y Haplogroup H-M82 depending on which Romany male population was being studied.
The following surnames have been Big Y tested to date.
Lock / Locke is in H-PH124.
Grigoras is in H-PH124
Downstream SNP's of H-PH124 are:
Bailey is in H-BY153075
Campbell is in H-BY153075
Ingram is in H-BY224203
Renison is in H-BY224203
Salo is in H-FT26956
Markov is in H-PH2261
While this is a small representation of the Romany male population as a whole being Big Y tested, it is an important representation because they are the first Rrom to ever be Big Y tested which is the deepest SNP testing available at this time.
There are around 30 Rrom of around 30 different surnames whom have been Y DNA tested, but not been Big Y tested yet, whom are still being shown as Y Haplogroup H-M82.
The Big Y test is making a huge difference and thanks to those 8 individuals, we have already expanded the Y Haplogroup H tree in a big way!
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That let's me out, since any Romani, up to 50%,is all on my mother's side.
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That let's me out, since any Romani, up to 50%,is all on my mother's side.
That would not be accurate Redroger because women can use the mtDNA test to look at your direct maternal lineage. There is a lot more admixture on the Romany female side, but there is a possibility that you may carry a South Asian mt Haplogroup as a result of your Romany ancestry.
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hello I am a gypsy and I researched a lot and I wanted to know where it came from because our culture and customs do not identify with India
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I’m Romany and I tested on each Dna site, I have matches to Bulgarian gypsies who were adopted in America. So it’s obvious to me that many of us have Balkan heritage.
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I'm new to this thread and just started researching the branch of my tree which myself and my siblings were led to believe we had Romany ancestors in. The names I'm looking at initially are: FINCH (Suffolk then Southwark) PETERS & MINNS in Southwark. Occupations include, Agricultural labourer, Horse Dealer, Costermonger, Hawker of vegetables, general dealer, greengrocer...
I see that there were Finch (Finca) 'gypsies passing through' in 1542 and wondered if they harked from Scotland?! I also wondered if it is know where Margaret Finch came from originally and if that was her maiden name or a married name?!
Myself and two siblings had the DNA test and my sister is 37% Scottish compared to me 12% and my bro just 8% ...
DNA - we have all got differing results: England & Northwestern Europe, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Germanic Europe, Norway & Sweden through ancestry.com
Hi DeeZeeBee,
Did you get a Gedmatch number please? I come from Norwood, where Margaret Finch lived. I may be related to the Powell family who are mentioned together with the Finches; the Southwark place name comes up again & again.
Finch is one of the old Romany names, no-one is quite sure where it originated; there was a Faa family in Scotland who were Travellers. I myself have 9% Scottish DNA according to Ancestry.
KR
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FAA is an old travelling name from Scotland, one of the famous families. If you go on ancestry dna -I’m just assuming you’re with that site , you don’t need to be a full member but just join as a free member when you did then dna… go to the dna page and settings, download your raw dna and save it to laptop , I’m assuming it can be done on a tablet but haven’t tried. Then create a Gedmatch account and upload to there. It’s easier than I make it sound, if I can do it anyone can.
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Hi DeeZeeBee,
I'm new to this thread and just started researching the branch of my tree which myself and my siblings were led to believe we had Romany ancestors in.
I see that there were Finch (Finca) 'gypsies passing through' in 1542 and wondered if they harked from Scotland?! I also wondered if it is know where Margaret Finch came from originally and if that was her maiden name or a married name?!
So yes, please get a Gedmatch number, it is the only way you will find out who you match, and who you don't. Sadly, it cannot be done by names alone, because names change down the years.
A known Romany change, for example, is from Yelden to Hilden. You cannot build a family tree only from names, you need DNA as well.
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Hello, I’ve known my whole life that I had Romany, however I never heard my dad or my granny use that term…it was always Gypsy. My dad and granny spoke their Rom language fluently. Some people find Gypsy derogatory but it was used in my family. My granny was 100% Rom. Her dad was Joseph Young son of Frampton Young( Heron). Her mother was Delilah Boss daughter of Sampson Boss who was son of the infamous Riley Boss.
Myself, my brother, my niece and my cousin all are matching DNA on Ancestry to lots and lots of cousins that we can trace and prove are all Romany full or otherwise. With that said I am only a 1/4 ROM. My Dad 1/2 and my granny full. Look at your DNA match and check who their matching. I guess if you are researching and not sure if you have Rom or not it could be more challenging for sure.
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That's really good for you. I never heard the term Romany until 5 years ago myself! If you upload your DNA to gedmatch (their test Eurogenes K-13) you can get a percentage of any South Asian you might still have.
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Hi Daisy, (daisydew7)
i moved my post to the Heron Young page were i meant it to go
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I just saw this now, in 2022.
Genebase shows detailed ethnicity, including Romani Kalderash, Monteni, Lom, Vlax, etc.
That's how I found out my ancestry.
Apparently Genebase concentrates more on ethnicity, rather than amassing a huge database of match-ups.
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Can I use my ancestry dna to upload to genebase?
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I don't think they have a facility on their website for that, unlike Gedmatch. You'd have to order a test.