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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: Elwyn on Saturday 21 November 15 13:37 GMT (UK)
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Most members hit a brick wall doing our Family History Research, I regard mine as "unusual" and I would welcome any MAINWARING/THOMPSON members comments - My step Grandfather George Thompson 1880 -1961 m. Emily Mainwaring 1917 in Newport Mon whilst residing in Ynysddu. George`s father was Henry Thompson occupation Gardner Domestic, ref his wedding certificate ! The mystery is that, when George died in Cwmfelifach 1961, a birth certificate { Issued apparently for insurance purposes] in the name of George Northover b. 1879 was discovered amongst his belongings !
Q. Was our George Thompson actually George Northover ? If not, why the birth certificate ? and how to trace his Thompson family.
Elwyn
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Births Dec 1879
Northover George Bridport 5a 392
Have you also got the birth certificate in the name of Thompson? Could he have been informally adopted, formal adoption didn't start until 1927?
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George Northover's baptism - note father's name!
George Northover
Date 03 Nov 1879
Event Place Puncknowle, Puncknowle, Dorset, England
Father's Name Henry Northover
Mother's Name Ann Northover
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VCRJ-4DZ
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This links him to Wales in 1911
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWXN-DBF
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Perhaps he was already married and thought he had better use another name.
There was a George Northover marriage in Dorchester district in 1905.
Incidently Elwyn have you yet seen the replies to your Carmarthenshire queries.
Mike
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Perhaps he was already married and thought he had better use another name.
There was a George Northover marriage in Dorchester district in 1905.
The 1905 marriage is online to Annie Bird Fall and lists George as 24 a stoker in the Royal Navy with father Richard Northover so it looks like a different George
Kay
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George`s father was Henry Thompson occupation Gardner Domestic, ref his wedding certificate !
Look at this for 1891
RG12; Piece: 1663; Folio: 85; Page: 13
Bridport
Henry Northover 37 Gardener Domestic Puncknowle, Dorset
Annie Northover 33 Puncknowle, Dorset
George Northover 11 Puncknowle, Dorset
Levi J Northover 9 Puncknowle, Dorset
Violet M Northover 1 Puncknowle, Dorset
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Births Dec 1879 Northover George Bridport 5a 392
Is this the same George?
George Northover Born 30 Jun 1881 Bridport Dorset
Service number: 305209
First Service Date: 27 Oct 1903
First Ship Served On: Nelson
Last Service Date: 25 Apr 1922
Last Ship Served On: Victory II
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Is this the same George?
George Northover Born 30 Jun 1881 Bridport Dorset
Service number: 305209
First Service Date: 27 Oct 1903
First Ship Served On: Nelson
Last Service Date: 25 Apr 1922
Last Ship Served On: Victory II
I would think that is the one that Kay found? "The 1905 marriage is online to Annie Bird Fall and lists George as 24 a stoker in the Royal Navy with father Richard Northover so it looks like a different George"
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On reflection I wonder if the problem will only be resolved if I can find answers to the following :-
1. Where was George Thompson 1880-1961 born/baptised ? this would reduce my "needles in a
haystack" and help track his biological parents. [ Have I got to wait for the 1921 Census ???]
2. Emily`s 1st Husband Thomas Mainwaring died in Risca Jan 1914
George Thompson and widow Emily have Violet Ann b. Oct 1915 their 1st child whilst residence in
Ynysddu. I have birth certificate.
How did either George Thompson ? or George Northover ?, meet Emily ? were they living in the
area between Jan 1914 and Oct 1915 ? [There were other Thompson families in Ynysddu in 1911]
Elwyn
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So we know that the name change took place between 1911 and 1915 if their first child was called Thompson.
I wonder if the idea that he was all ready married could be the reason? If Emily's first husband died in 1914, why did they wait until 1917 to marry, especially if they were having children?
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I wonder if the name change related to WW1 and George avoiding conscription??
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I wonder if the name change related to WW1 and George avoiding conscription??
That did cross my mind as well, Kay, but isn't a good thought is it, if he did?
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Not sure this helps, but . . .
My grandfather moved from rural Wiltshire, via the Bristol coalfields, to Monmouthshire between 1911 and 1919. He then worked in the mines.
My grandmother's family moved from Kent to Monmouthshire about 1908. Her father initially worked on the new sewerage system being built from Newport up the Valleys.
Incidentally, I used to drive through Risca, Cwmfelinfach and Ynysddu every day on my journey to work in Pontllanfraith! ;D
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I don't think it is so much the change of location, as the change of name that is the puzzle.
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Does the replacement certificate have a date it was issued noted on it anywhere, this is the only connection to the other George that exists and might be a red herring
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Earlier thread on another site adds a few more bits http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gjg/
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Earlier thread on another site adds a few more bits http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gjg/
So that thread came to the same conclusions as we have - George Northover and George Thompson are one and the same person, and for some reason he changed his name unofficially. Then when he reached an age when he needed proof for his pension, he had to apply for his original birth certificate.
Where was George Thompson 1880-1961 born/baptised ? this would reduce my "needles in a haystack" and help track his biological parents
I don't think you will find this, as "George Thompson" didn't exsist!
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I don't think it is so much the change of location, as the change of name that is the puzzle.
I appreciate that, but I was responding to something Elwyn said:
How did either George Thompson ? or George Northover ?, meet Emily ? were they living in the
area between Jan 1914 and Oct 1915 ? [There were other Thompson families in Ynysddu in 1911]
Elwyn
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Birth certificate for George Northover b.14/10/1879 states :-
- Birth in Burton Bradstock District Bridport Dorset
- Father George Northover Mother Ann Thorner Puncknowle.
Copy of birth certificate for George Northover found in George Thompson`s house states :-
- All of above plus 1. This certificate issued for the purposes of National Insurance Act 1940.
2. This certificate is dated 04/04/1945
The date "1945" could be significant because it would match with George Thomson being 65 and needing a pension ! Could the Pension Services have and/or would allow confirmation ?
Elwyn
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You could try them, but they may refuse. It would be interesting to know in what name the pension was paid, as presumably his bank details would be in the name of Thompson.
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Birth certificate for George Northover b.14/10/1879 states :-
Birth in Burton Bradstock District Bridport Dorset
Father George Northover Mother Ann Thorner Puncknowle.
For info. marriage detail
9 Jan 1879 Puncknowle, Dorset
Henry Northover 23 oc labourer father John occ labourer
Ann Thorner 21 father Levi occ woodman
Both single, both signed their name both res. Puncknoll
Witnessed by George Northover (made his mark x) & Emily Northover
Look at this for 1891
RG12; Piece: 1663; Folio: 85; Page: 13 Bridport
Henry Northover 37 Gardener Domestic Puncknowle, Dorset
Annie Northover 33 Puncknowle, Dorset
George Northover 11 Puncknowle, Dorset
Levi J Northover 9 Puncknowle, Dorset
Violet M Northover 1 Puncknowle, Dorset
George Northover's baptism - note father's name!
George Northover
Date 03 Nov 1879
Event Place Puncknowle, Puncknowle, Dorset, England
Father's Name Henry Northover
Mother's Name Ann Northover
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VCRJ-4DZ
Re above baptism entry
Written outside column next to George's name
brought to the Church Nov 16th 1879
There has been a few things crossed out but I can't make out what ???
Word crossed out above Henry's name
surname Northover word crossed out underneath
occupation Labourer word crossed out above (might be woodman)
other baptisms Puncknowle, Dorset
Levi John Northover Baptism 30 Oct 1881
Henry occ Labourer Ann
Florence Mary NorthoverBaptism 24 Feb 1884
Henry occ Labourer Annie
Albert Henry Northover 27 Nov 1887
Henry occ. gardener Ann
Violet Mary Northover 16 Feb 1890
Henry occ Gardener Ann
details from Dorset, England Birth & Baptism 1813 – 1906
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Apologies All - correction !!! both birth certificates for George Northover show his father as Henry Northover fisherman.
A possible change of name from George Northover to George Thompson can be explained by various reasons but where then does Henry Thompson [ as shown on the 1917 wedding certificate of Emily & George Thompson`s ] father fit in ? Was he also alias Northover ?
Elwyn
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A possible change of name from George Northover to George Thompson can be explained by various reasons but where then does Henry Thompson [ as shown on the 1917 wedding certificate of Emily & George Thompson`s ] father fit in ? Was he also alias Northover ?
Elwyn
When George was asked his father's name at the time his marriage George would probably reply Henry and the registrar recorded it as Henry Thompson.
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Apologies All - correction !!! both birth certificates for George Northover
show his father as Henry Northover fisherman.
A possible change of name from George Northover to George Thompson can be explained by various reasons but
where then does Henry Thompson [ as shown on the 1917 wedding certificate of Emily & George Thompson`s ] father fit in ?
Was he also alias Northover ?
As far as I can see Henry's surname is NORTHOVER
1901 RG13; Piece: 2012; Folio: 72; Page: 4
Henry NORTHOVER 44 occ Gardener Domestic with wife Annie and dau Violet Mary 11
1891c RG12; Piece: 1663; Folio: 85; Page: 13
Henry NORTHOVER 37 with wife Annie
Sons George 11, Levi J 9 & dau Violet M 1
George age 1 on 1881c with father Henry NORTHOVER occ fisherman & mother Annie
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXW-98B8
1871 RG10; Piece: 2027; Folio: 94; Page: 2
Henry NORTHOVER 15 Labourer with parents John & Mary plus siblings
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5R7-7JZ
1861 RG 9; Piece: 1366; Folio: 92; Page: 6
Henry NORTHOVER 6 with parents John & Mary plus siblings
and his baptism
Henry NORTHOVER Baptism 1 Mar 1855 Puncknowle, Dorset,
Father: John occ Labourer Mother: Mary
and I think this is his parents marriage
5 Sep 1842 Swyre, Dorset, England
John NORTHOVER f/a father Richard, both fisherman
Mary Walbridge f/a no father named
and Henry NORTHOVER's burial 1929 age 74
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJDC-2T7S
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A possible change of name from George Northover to George Thompson can be explained by various reasons but where then does Henry Thompson [ as shown on the 1917 wedding certificate of Emily & George Thompson`s ] father fit in ? Was he also alias Northover ?
If you'd changed your name for some reason and didn't want people to know, you wouldn't then say that your father was Henry Northover on your marriage certificate, as people might start asking questions. You'd say he was Henry Thompson. It might be that even his bride didn't know that he was really a Northover.
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Is this George’s death entry?
Mar 1961 Caerleon 8c 180
THOMPSON George 81 (1880)
Mynyddislwyn is in the registration district of Caerleon
1939 Register has this entry for Mynyddislwyn U.D
George THOMPSON born 1879, 2 others who are officially closed
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My George Thompson died 28/03/1961 at Pioneer Terrace Cwmfelinfach aged 81 and was cremated at Caerleon Cemetary .
The 1939 register entry looks correct - wonder if it will help ?
Elwyn
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My George Thompson died 28/03/1961 at Pioneer Terrace Cwmfelinfach aged 81 and was cremated at Caerleon Cemetary .
The 1939 register entry looks correct - wonder if it will help ?
Elwyn
It might do, as it would tell you his date of birth and occupation. If the date of birth was the same as George Northover ie 14/10/1879, then I think we could say without any doubt that they are one and the same person. It won't tell you the two people that are living with him though, as unless you can prove they are dead, they can't be opened.
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Been following this topic with interest as we have a family group with a changed name ::)....
None of the George Thompsons in the 1939 have a DOB of 14/10/1879 :(
Edited to add: there were only 5 Georges on the 1939 register with a DOB of 14/10/1879.
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None of the George Thompsons in the 1939 have a DOB of 14/10/1879 :(
Edited to add: there were only 5 Georges on the 1939 register with a DOB of 14/10/1879.
1939 Register search
If you
DON'T enter the birthdate (14) and
ONLY enter month (10)
ONLY enter year (1879) then choose
county Monmouthshire the only
George Thompson that shows up in the search is
George Thompson 1879 Mynyddislwyn U.D Monmouthsshire
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The George Thompson b.1879 at Mynydislwyn is almost certainly our George ! and if the register had recorded his place of birth, then that would have been a major breakthrough.
Speculation, I wonder if our George Thompson is the biological son of Henry Thompson [sailor ?]and unknown female ! but raised by Henry Northover as their own child for some reason, {is there a place for unmarried mothers in Bridport ? ] Common occurance then and now !
If George Thompson was really George Northover ! there are a few co-incidences :-
1. Violet, Ivy,Lily were Emily & George Thompsons daughters.
2. Violet was George Northovers sister.
3. 1901 Census, George Northover is a boarder with the TOMPKIN family as a Gardner Domestic !
Could this be where Thompson name came from ?
Elwyn
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Elwyn, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem very reluctant to accept what most people are suggesting. That is, that George Thompson began life as George Northover and kept that name until at least 1911. Then for some unknown reason he changed his name to Thompson. I think you are over complicating it. You have the birth certificate for George Northover, therefore he can't have been born to Henry Thompson and an unknown woman!
As I see it, there are too many coincidences for it not to be one and the same person, the only thing left to solve is why he changed his name, and that may be something you'll never know.
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Just to say that you are probably right, - My cousin Pam Webley {A direct decendant of George Thompson 1880-1961 is of the same mind set ! My research is aimed at proving the "right" lineage in my Family Tree, anyway many thanks to all members for their input and comments.
Elwyn