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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: JohanVisser on Sunday 29 November 15 13:15 GMT (UK)
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Kindly help me or direct me where I can confirm the following, which at the moment is a theory until you or someone else can confirm it for me: It seems that my great-great grandfather Samuel Roberts came from a town called Mithian Downs, Saint Agnes, Cornwall, United Kingdom. This is how I figured it out...
Known facts are:
1. Samuel Roberts (1841 - 01 May 1915) was born in England and died in Knysna, South Africa.
2. His year of birth (1841) was confirmed by both his death certificate and his marriage certificate (Married in Knysna on 20 September 1867 at the age of 26)... both these South African documents are in my possession (The two documents do not give the month and date of birth... only 1841).
An emigrant ship, the Eclipse, arrived in Cape Town on 27 November 1849 from England. On board was William Roberts, his wife and 5 children. (http://www.sagenealogy.co.za/Eclipse.htm).
In the 1841 UK census I found:
Piece: HO107/149/2 Place: Pydar -Cornwall Enumeration District: 8
Civil Parish: St. Agnes Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 49 Page: 6
Address: Mithian Downs
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Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ROBERTS William M 35 Copper Miner Cornwall
ROBERTS Mary F 30 Cornwall
ROBERTS Louisa F 8 Cornwall
ROBERTS William M 6 Cornwall
ROBERTS James M 5 Cornwall
ROBERTS Samuel M 5m Cornwall
In this UK census (1841) Samuel is 5 months old, meaning that he was about 8 years old in 1849 when he arrived in South Africa with his parents, sister and brothers and it corresponds with 26 years old when he got married in 1867 and it also corresponds with his year of birth 1841.
I’ve checked the 1851 UK census and unless I've made a mistake the same family does not appear in it... confirming my theory that they left the UK in 1849 for South Africa.
Five children arrived in South Africa, but the 1841 UK census shows only 4 children... Samuel being the youngest at 5 months old. I suspect that between 1841 (UK census) and 1849 (arrival in SA) another child was born after Samuel. Interesting to note that Samuel’s father was a copper miner. Even this corresponds if I am looking for a reason why they came to SA... and the answer is possibly in Wikipedia “Historically tin mining was important in the Cornish economy, becoming increasingly significant during the High Middle Ages and expanding greatly during the 19th century when rich copper mines were also in production. In the mid-19th century, however, the tin and copper mines entered a period of decline.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall)
Please help me to proof beyond any doubt that this is (or is not) our Roberts ancestors. (My mother is Jacoba Klomp born Roberts, and passed away on 24 August 2014 aged 78). Kind regards and many thanks.
Johan Visser
Pretoria
South Africa
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
I would try Cornwall-OPC-Database (.org).
That shows this baptism:
8th April 1832 at St Agnes
Louisa Verran Roberts, daughter of William (a miner) and Mary Ann, of Mithian Downs.
and
21st Jan 1834 at St Agnes
William Roberts, daughter of William (a miner) and Mary Ann, of Mithian Downs.
Potential marriage?
5th September 1831 at Perranzabuloe
William Roberts, bachelor, of St Agnes
Mary Ann Trevethan, spinster, otp (of this parish)
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There is a birth registration for a Samuel Roberts Jan-Mar quarter, Truro registration district, Cornwall, volume 9, page 317. This would fit with Samuel being about 5 months old at the time of the 1841 census. Truro includes the eccesiastical parish of St Agnes.
There is also another Samuel Roberts birth registration Oct-Dec quarter 1841, also Truro, Cornwall, volume 9, page 308, but this cannot be him unless you have the wrong family, because he would not be on the 1841 census. Assume you have searched for the second Samuel to check what happened to him? Bear in mind that the second Samuel could have travelled to SA at a later time.
Possibly you would need to obtain the birth certificate to verify which of these two Samuels is the one that travelled to SA in 1848, i.e with father William and mother Mary, (unless we can find other supporting evidence without having to pay for a certificate, such as a baptism record)
I see while I've been typing this, KGarrard has found a couple of baptisms in the Cornwall OPC database. Maybe Samuel will be on there.
p.s. I believe requests shouldn't be put here on this thread, so I think a mod will be along shortly to move your post to a more approrpiate place.
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I made a mistake posting here and immediately reported myself to the mod hoping that my request be moved to an appropriate page... but it hasn't happened yet. Thank you kindly KGarrad and mogwood for the information thus far. I appreciate your efforts and time. Regards. Johan
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I'm not finding Samuel or James on Cornwall OPC?
By the way - I hope you two don't complain about mis-transcriptions?!
You both managed to spell my name incorrectly! ;D ;D
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You're too fast for me... I've edited and corrected your name minutes ago. Sorry. Best regards and thanks a million.
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How do I apply and pay for certificates? Secondly, the 1851 census is also key... I could not 100% be sure that this family is not on that census because the family might have moved out of that district, etc. You're thoughts and input on this? (Can I also pay someone to investigate records? of which family board the Eclipse in 1849? Who will that be?
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By the way - I hope you two don't complain about mis-transcriptions?!
You both managed to spell my name incorrectly! ;D ;D
oops :-[ so sorry KGarrad. Just washed my hands and can't do a thing with 'em ;D
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" .... post to a more approrpiate place. "
see what I mean ... ;D ;D
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Civil Registration, and hence Birth, Marriage & Death Certificate, only came into being on 1st July 1837.
You need certain reference details: Year, Quarter, Registration District, Volume No and Page No.
Best place to find these is on FreeBMD (www.freebmd.org.uk).
You can then apply through the GRO:
https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
Cost is £9.25, which includes postage & packing.
I would post on one of the Cornwall boards, I think?
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Johan,
Clearly you have done considerable searching already, so will have found another William Roberts (widowed) and family on the 1851 census, also in Mithian parish, Truro, Cornwall. The reference is HO107 piece 1909 folio 588 p.16.
This would give me pause for further checking, because the names and ages of the family are similar to those you quote on the 1841 census, with the addition of Nanny, who could have been elsewhere in 1841. Actually there is a Nanny, b.1835 appears to be living at the local pub with 2 other children, (which may or may not be relevant ::)). The age differences are not so great; I have seen more variances in ages many times in my own searches.
Alternatively the family in the 1851 census could be related to the one you have in the 1841 census, possibly their fathers were cousins - hence the use of same family names. There are certainly plenty of Roberts families to choose from
Sorry I can't give any advice on professional researchers, as I've never used one. You seem to be doing quite well for yourself up to now. If you really want to employ someone, possibly the Cornwall FHS might be able to help. Their main site is here: http://www.cornwallfhs.com/ , or the OPC mentioned earlier might be able to refer you to someone.
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Thank you again KGarrad and mogwood for your inputs and suggestions. I am fairly new to this and I am signing off for now because during the week work (bread and butter) doesn't allow for research, etc. This coming weekend I tackle it again and see how far I can get with your suggestions and direction. May you have a splendid joyful wonderful week. Regards. Johan
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Hello Johan,
Since last week I've had a look at a few things, to see if it is possible to prove/disprove the families we have on the English 1841 and 1851 census returns, references mentioned previously.
I've found a few bits and pieces that might help - or might not! ;D I have concentrated my searches on people with a birth place of St Agnes, Cornwall.
The children
Louisa b.abt 1832. I can find only one baptism (transcribed) for 8 April 1832. Parents William & Mary Ann Roberts. Search range was 1830 - 1850.
William b.abt 1834. Many options, but only one with parents William & Mary Ann, bap 21 June 1834
James b.abt 1838. 3 options, 2 for 1837 and 1 for 1838. Bap 23 July 1839 at St Agnes. Parents William and Mary (not Mary Ann). Birth registration Dec. qtr. 1838 Truro v.9 p.322.
Samuel b.1841. 2 records found, March qtr 1841 Truro v.9 p.317 and Dec qtr 1841 Truro v.9 p.308. as mentioned previously.
There is a death registration for a Samuel Roberts in 1850 June qtr. Truro v.9 p.223. No age given, so could have been any Samuel amongst many. Could not find a burial.
English census
I checked a couple of the children through the census records to see whether they stayed in England/Cornwall. It seems that most of them did.
James can be found in all records up to 1891 (and probably later, I didn't re-check for others).
In 1861 he is with sister Nancy, now married to a Mr Cocking, a tin miner in Mithian Downs.
I cannot find another Samuel b.1841, St Agnes, in the census, beyond the 1851 record that we have.
There is a public tree on the Ancestry site, that has Samuel Roberts listed. It seems that he moved to California, USA at some stage - no details of his travel are given. None of the details in the tree tie up with the 1841 or 1851 census, i.e. siblings, parents' names, even his birth date - BUT by chance, they have what seems like the correct probate record following his death on 22 Oct 1869 age 29, a single man - because the probate was granted to his sister Nanny Cocking So, the Samuel shown in the 1851 census ended up mining in USA.
We can therefore discount the Samuel & family in the 1851 census. Only x-dozen more to go .... ;)
p.s. Forgot to mention that the probate date was 11 October 1882 at the Principal Registry.
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I wonder whether you need to search wider than just Cornwall. I can understand what you say about the mining connection, but there were many other mining areas in England, in the northern counties, some in the midlands, and in Wales, as well as the Cornish tin mines.
Accepting that 1841 is the true year of birth for Samuel, then there are 31 births recorded in England for that year for Samuel Roberts, or a combination of Samuel and another forename. There could be a couple more born late in the year that weren't registered till 1842.
I can't find anything in passenger lists; doesn't mean they're not there, it just means I can't find anything. :(
I suppose there's no way that you can find out the names of the children who were passengers with their father William? Or possibly track what happened to William and family after he immigrated?
Is there any more info on Samuel's marriage certificate that could help? Maybe one of his siblings acted as a witness?
Sorry, can't add anything else at the moment.
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I have just seen your message, and think I can answer your question.
I believe my 2x great grandfather James Roberts was an older brother of your Samuel, so we share 3x great grandparents William and Sophia. They were from Goudhurst in Kent, but in 1849 they emigrated to the Cape with their youngest five children, Harriett, George, Caroline, Samuel and Walton, as well as their eldest son, also William (then in his late 20s). They received financial support through the assisted emigration scheme, and this is mentioned in several parish documents. I'm pretty sure therefore that this is the family that arrived on the Eclipse. James and 2 other adult siblings, Elizabeth and Jane, remained in England.
I'm also convinced that this is the Roberts family that settled in the Knysna area, as there are marriages and burials in the church records there for the 4 sons that are generally good matches for their ages etc., and also burials for William senior and Sophia. Incidentally the Goudhurst parish register gives Samuel's date of birth as 13th January 1842.