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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: lydiaann on Wednesday 02 December 15 16:40 GMT (UK)
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I have an emigration record of Dougald MacGillivray, Banker, aged 64, and Harriet M MacGillivray, housewife aged 54, sailing on the 'Republic' (United States Lines) from Southampton to New York on Mar 11, 1927. They are recorded as passing through Ellis Island. However, the passenger manifest shows them as stating their intended destination and future residence as Canada. Can anyone tell me if it's possible to find out where they eventually ended up and, more importantly, place of birth of Harriet. Pretty please! (I don't have world-wide access to Ancestry any more).
Thanks in eager anticipation.
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There is a record showing Harriet M Macgillivray birth year 1871 arriving in Halifax Canada 4th June 1934 on the record it gives her husband as a Mr D Macgillivray 121 Coburg Road, Halifax N.S could this be her?
P.S there also seems to be another record where she is with a son Douglas and daughter Janie on another record where she is with her husband its states she was Born Hamilton, Bermuda?
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Wow, that was quick, Lisa! Yup, that sounds like her. I can now try and see if she is 'my' Harriet M. Macgillivray - and if it is, there is another connection to Canada, through the HBC and a marriage "according to the custom of the country". Watch this space - and many thanks!
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Good morning Lydia,
There might be ax-border document going from USA to Canada for your ancestors on Ancestry. There has been a lot of x-border crossing both ways through history and both Canada and USA are large places so it is hard to say where they actually ended up. There are a few places where they may have crossed the USA-Canada border as well.
Unfortunately the 1931 Canadian census has not been released yet. However, the USA censuses are released up to 1940 so if your ancestors happened to have stayed in the States you may be able to locate them in the 1930 or 1940 US census(es).
In terms of Canada, if you can determine where they settled via the border crossing dox, the pair may be found in the voter's list, telephone directories, cemetery records, property documents, etc..
Hope this helps you,
JDC
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Lydia have you seen the tree on Ancest with the photos or is that your's?
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Records of Aliens Pre-Examined in Canada, 1904-1954
Report issue
Name: Dougald McGillivray, Gender: Male Nationality: Canada, Age: 28, Birth Place: Antigonish, N.S., Marital Status: Single, Pre-Examination Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Just wondering if this is thier son?
JDC
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Family appear on the 1921 census 249 Jubilee Road, Halifax Nova Scotia Canada
Dougald Mac Gillivray 59 Born Ontario. Father and Mother born Scotland. Super-intendant.
Harriett Mac Gillivray 49 Born Ontario.
Henry D Mac Gillivray 22 Born Ontario.
Donald J Mac Gillivray 16 Born Ontario.
Mary M Mac Gillivray 17 Born Ontario.
Jamie E Mac Gillivray 14 Born Nova Scotia.
Sadie Smithers 24 Maid.
Sandra
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The birth of son Dougald John Macgillivary - 6 November 1904 - Father Dougald Macgillivary
Mother's name Harriet May Howard.
Sandra
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Hi again,
Sorry forgot to mention that parents names are not given, bu a sister's name is; Mrs Alice Gillis. He has Boston as destination as Boston and occupation as electricial.
JDC
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Marriage of Harriet Mary Howard to Donald Macgillivray 1 st September 1898 Wentworth Ontario -
Father of Harriet was - George H Howard - Mother: Jane Mclaren Howard
Father of Dougald - John Macgillivray - Mother:Isabella Darroch
Sandra
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Harriet Mary Howard was born 19 August 1872 - Wentworth Ontario.
Father - George Henry Howard Mother's name: Jane McLaren.
Sandra
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Hi again,
Here is some more info:
U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1956
Report issue
Name: Dougal James Macgillivray
Birth Place: Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada
Birth Country: Canada
Arrival Date: 25 Sep 1941
Port of Arrival: Calais, Maine, USA
Departure Contact: Aunt Mrs. Mcaisaac
Record has photo?: No
Record Type: Cards
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Dougald MacGillivray Snr passed away 9 August 1937 Halifax Nova Scotia.
Sandra
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Recorded on the 1901 census as Daufag and Harriet Mary McQillnory :
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KH28-P1P
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z002/jpg/z000053699.jpg
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1911 under Mac Guilory - 34 Fenwoods Halifax Nova Scotia -
Joseph Mac Guilory 48 Harriet Mac Guilory 38
Henry Mac Guilory 11 Mary Mac Guilory 7
Douglas Mac Guilory 6 Janes Mac Guilory 4
Katie Frace 26
Georgina Ross 19
Sandra
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Daughter - Jane - Janie Evatt Gunn - born 25 February 1907 passed away 23 October 1982 North Vancouver.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL1F-MDR
Janie Evatt MacGillivray Gunn - FIND A GRAVE
Burial North Shore Crematorium North Vancouver Greater Vancouver Regional District
British Columbia.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=110000497&ref=acom
husband - Wilfred Raymond Gunn 1893 - 1969 (with photo)
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=86560150
Sandra
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Attestation Papers for son Henry D Macgillivray
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/first-world-war-1914-1918-cef/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=152608
Sandra
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Hi again,
Here is some more info:
U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1956
Report issue
Name: Dougal James Macgillivray
Birth Place: Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada
Birth Country: Canada
Arrival Date: 25 Sep 1941
Port of Arrival: Calais, Maine, USA
Departure Contact: Aunt Mrs. Mcaisaac
Record has photo?: No
Record Type: Cards
This may be a different Dougal ???
Dougal John Macgillivary was born 6 November 1904 to Dougald Macgillivary Mother's name:
Harriet May Howard.
Dougald James MacGillivray was born 22 Oct 1899 in Antigonish, Nova Scotia top parents Colin MacGillivray and Catherine Ann MacIsaac.
Sandra
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Daughter Mary Howard Macgillivray - 5 July 1903 - Essex Ontario - Father Dougald Macgillivray
Mother's name - Harriet Mary Howard.
Mary H MacGillivray married David W. MacKeen 5 th June 1928 Fort Massey, Halifax, Halifax County, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://dghall.ca/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1598&tree=HBSMK
http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/h/a/l/Douglas-G-Hall/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0923.html
Sandra
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Mary Howard McKeen passed away 13 September 1985 Toronto General Hospital
Obit - Ottawa Citizen - 14 September 1985
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19850914&id=er8yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p-8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3858,1571242&hl=en
Sandra
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David Crerar Mackeen son of David and Mary - 1935 - 2011
Obit - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gl4/
http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/Deaths.20111220.93282260/BDAStory/BDA/deaths
Sandra
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Marriage of Harriet Mary Howard to Donald Macgillivray 1 st September 1898 Wentworth Ontario -
Father of Harriet was - George H Howard - Mother: Jane Mclaren Howard
Father of Dougald - John Macgillivray - Mother:Isabella Darroch
Sandra
Viewable on LDS.......Marriage 1898 Dougald is recorded as Donald?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZBQ-XKD
Some more info. with a few variations of Darroch......
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gl8/
Annie
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Thanks so much, Chatters for all the assistance. Sandra has actually confirmed that it is NOT my Harriet M MacGillivray after all as Dugald's wife was born in Ontario and my Harriet was born in Scotland. I know from a trip to N.S. 15 years ago that there are many MacGillivrays in the Province, including a jeweller in Antigonish and they may even be related to 'my' MacGs way back. The reason I was intrigued was, not only that I couldn't trace Harriet (maiden name MacG) but also that she was the granddaughter of William McTavish, a Governor of HBC, by his first "wife" (she of the 'marriage according to the customs of the country', i.e. probably First Nations). Ah well, onwards an upwards!
So very many thanks to all of you who took the time to help. I do try and pay you all back by helping others and have even been successful on one or two occasions. Enjoy the upcoming weekend!
lydiaann
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Sandra has actually confirmed that it is NOT my Harriet M MacGillivray after all as Dugald's wife was born in Ontario and my Harriet was born in Scotland. I know from a trip to N.S. 15 years ago that there are many MacGillivrays in the Province, including a jeweller in Antigonish and they may even be related to 'my' MacGs way back. The reason I was intrigued was, not only that I couldn't trace Harriet (maiden name MacG) but also that she was the granddaughter of William McTavish, a Governor of HBC, by his first "wife"
So very many thanks to all of you who took the time to help.
Hi Lydia,
It's just a shame you didn't post what you already knew e.g. that Harriet's m/s was also MacGillivray & born in Scotland ::)
Your original post....
I have an emigration record of Dougald MacGillivray, Banker, aged 64, and Harriet M MacGillivray, (no mention of this being her maiden name too) housewife aged 54, sailing on the 'Republic' (United States Lines) from Southampton to New York on Mar 11, 1927. Can anyone tell me if it's possible to find out where they eventually ended up and, more importantly, place of birth of Harriet.
The marriage which Sandra found 1898 has Dougald/Donald's occupation as an Accountant...not too far removed from his occupation in 1927 as a Banker but..................
If it had been known Harriet's maiden name was MacGillivray people would have been searching for a MacGillivray/MacGillivray marriage rather than MacGillivray & any other surname.
It is important to point out "known" facts to save unnecessary time & effort so people know exactly who/what they are researching.
Annie
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Perhaps the way forward would be to start with what you know about Harriet Mary Macgillivray ???
Rather than taking a wild guess that she may have married another Macgillivray.
You probably already have this info but for anyone researching, could you confirm if it is the correct family ??? More information should have been given in your original post, which would have avoided people wasting more time than necessary following the family.
Is this your Harriet Mary Macgillivray (with a McTavish connection) ??? Born 14 March 1881 - North Knapdale, Argyll, Scotland.
Parents - Angus Malcolm Macgillivray - Mother Mary Mctavish
Bellanoch P. School 1 North Knapdale, Argyll 1881
Angus M McGillivray 29 Teacher Of Lab. School
Mary McGillivray 30
Harriet Mary McGillivray 3 Weeks
Christina McLean 50
Mary Johnstone 15
School House Bellanoch North Knapdale Argyll 1891 (No mother Mary on this census - could she have died ???)
A U MacGillivray 28 Head Master of P S
Harriet M McGillivray 10 Daughter
Flora McGillivray 70 Mother
Mary A MacInnes 20 Servant
Father seems to have passed away 25 May 1894 as per probate entry for Angus Malcolm Macgillivray - of Bellanoch Lochgilpinhead school master died 25 May 1894 - confirmation of Catherine Campbell or Macgillivray - sealed London 15 September
Glenstive School House Ardchattan and Muckairn 1901
Harriet M MacGillerray 20 Teacher in public school.
Catherine Maclean 29 cousin - nurse domestic.
Can't transcribe 1911 but someone of that name is living in London - could that be your Harriet ???
Previous thread which mentions the McTavish family and William being the Govenor of the Hudson Bay Co (HBC)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=674044.0
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/mactavish_william_9E.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mactavish
http://timemachine.siamandas.com/PAGES/early_manitoba/William_Mactavish.htm
Sandra
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My apologies: obviously I didn't review my message before sending it - sorry! I do have within the MacGillivray/Maclean family a couple of inter-marriages (it would seem that the Isle of Mull was full of only Macleans and MacGs!) and they spread outward to the Mainland so that the MacG marrying a MacG was not essentially a 'wild guess'.
And yes, that is the Harriet and yes, thanks, I do have that census form.
I am suitably chastised, I shall now go and hide under my computer desk with Teddy and chew on his nose while weeping tears of mortification and shame...
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After all this time, and the odd 'pick' at this lady, I got a 'hint' on my tree today of a 1944 Nurses Register for Farnborough in Kent with the name Harriet Mary Bethell. I knew my Harriet had been a nurse in England in 1911 but it was a slender chance it would be her, surely? Anyway, tracing back from that Register it turns out she WAS my lady. So now I know that sometime between 1911 and 1914, she married an Alfred Bethell and gave birth to Freda Frances Bethell in 1914. She died in Farnborough in 1947. I can find no trace of her marriage to Alfred, which seems strange. He was some 14 years her senior. Her daughter is marked as single and living with her parents in 1939 Register, but her surname was changed to Clemence, with a date annotated as 20.7.49...not sure if that is her marriage (as this is also a mystery) or the date the Register was amended. She was a spinster when her mother died (as mentioned in the probate document). She herself died in 2005.
Anyway, because I was rather lax in my previous requests for any information that people may have had, I wanted to give this further info to show I do keep a record of the assistance that people do give me - and anyway, it may help others if they come across this!!
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Alfred Bethell appears to have died in 1941. The probate index entry states that Alfred , of 66 London Road , Tunbridge Wells, last seen alive 20 June 1941 , was found dead 6 August 1941 in Bath. Probate was granted to his brother John Henry Bethell, Baron of Romford. There is a lot in the newspapers about his mysterious death but there is no mention of a wife. One article refers to a son and possibly a daughter. It appears he had a wife , Kate Elizabeth Bethell , who died in 1930 .
" Kate Elizabeth Bethell of 16 Prior Park Buildings Bath , ( wife of Alfred Bethell ) , died 14 Nov 1930. Probate to Eric McKinley Bethell , motor engineer."
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Eric McKinley Bethell - mmn GODDEN
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in Brighton Volume 02B Page 25
Sandra
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Thanks to you both, Christine and Sandra. And, oh dear, this pulls up a whole new scenario! I'm now wondering if Harriet married Alfred Bethell after his wife, Kate Elizabeth died? Or even, did they marry at all? And if there was talk of a daughter, that would be Freda Frances but, as she was born in 1914, why did they not know about her? In any case, it looks as though she was Harriet's step-daughter. His relationships seem very strange. There is a marriage to Kate Elizabeth (according to the 1911 census) in about 1897, yet on the 1911 census he is shown as Single. (Eric McKinley Bethell was born in 1899 in Brighton, Sussex. Freda Frances was born in Steyning, Sussex in 1914. Yet Alfred seemed to have lived in a different county in every census!) It seems as though, once more, a load of research needs to take place! Just when I thought I was closing the door finally on Harriet!!
thanks again for all your research. As always, Watch This Space. ;D ;D
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Well, what a mystery man!
All evidence - including a marriage record - shows that Alfred was married in 1897 to Kate Elizabeth Godden. They had a son, Eric McKinley Bethell, in 1899 in Brighton. In the 1911 census, Eric is a boarder at Monkton Combe Junior School, Combe Down, Bath. On that same census, Alfred is shown as single and living at Beechwood, Widcombe Hill. There is no 1911 census showing Kate Elizabeth.
Also in 1911, a PO Directory for 1911 shows Alfred Bethell, J.P. Essex, living at Beechwood, Widcombe Hill...which is the same place the body of Alfred Bethell is found in 1841. (See Below). Several other male Bethells are also noted in that directory.
In 1913, Alfred J. Bethell is shown as a JP. in Storrington Abbey, Sussex. There is also a 1913 Directory entry for an Alfred Bethell at Herne Lee, Harrington Road, Preston (part of Brighton and Hove). He's shown as a JP in Storrington Abbey, Sussex still in 1915.
In November 1914, Freda Frances Bethell is born to Harriet Mary MacGillivray (shown as MacGillwray on the GRO Record) in Steyning, Brighton.
Kate Elizabeth Bethell died in 1930. Probate is granted to her son, Eric. She is noted as being the wife of Alfred Bethell.
In 1939, Alfred Bethell is shown to be living with Harriet Bethell and Freda Frances Bethell. His status is that he is 'married'. They are living in Royal Tunbridge Wells.
In 1941, Alfred's body is found in "The Bungalow, Beechwood Macauley Buildings, Bath", but no date of death was ascertained. (As an aside, these buildings are above the £1 million mark on Rightmove, so quite exclusive). Probate is granted to the Rt Hon John Henry Bethell (John Henry Bethell, 1st Baron Bethell (23 September 1861 – 27 May 1945), known as Sir John Bethell, 1st Baronet, from 1911 to 1922, was a British banker and Liberal politician.) Obviously he is a relative, but how close/distant is not yet clear. His son Eric is not mentioned, he died in 1983 in Bath. It seems strange he would not be granted Probate.
I'm wondering whether we have one single Alfred Bethell or are there 2?? Increasingly, the Alfred Bethell, JP has an extra initial J. And after all this, there is still no record of Harriet MacGillivray marrying Alfred Bethell, despite being described as widow on her Probate.
If there are any Bethell's out there, HELP!!
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Sorry...finger problems. I shall continue....
All other Chatters, thanks for your help and only take the time if you are sure you HAVE time; you've done lots already.
Stay safe!
lydiaann
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Well, what a mystery man!
I'm wondering whether we have one single Alfred Bethell or are there 2?? Increasingly, the Alfred Bethell, JP has an extra initial J. And after all this, there is still no record of Harriet MacGillivray marrying Alfred Bethell, despite being described as widow on her Probate.
If there are any Bethell's out there, HELP!!
The entry in the Probate Calendar, from which I quoted , gives an address for Alfred Bethell as
66 London Road , Tunbridge Wells ( not withstanding that he died in Bath ). That is the address in 1939 for Alfred , Harriet and Freda so I don't think there are two Alfred Bethells.
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Yes, I understand that. It's just that there appear to be too many Alfred Bethells in the City Directories in the same year (1913) in Sussex! I think I need to 'park' this one overnight in my brain - what's left of it now I seem to have completely fried it ;D - and have another go in a few days. I think we are all on the right track - it's just that he seems to have led a double life somewhere along the line. I wonder if he felt it was all worth it at the very end...
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It might be worth getting hold of his will to see if he mentions Harriet and Freda. I can't help thinking that he may have disappeared from their lives without them knowing where he'd gone - an awful thought.
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I am of the same view, but did he do the same to his wife and son? Although it looks as though the latter also lived in Bath, he certainly died there so why give the Probate to his brother (see below)? Also, although Kate is mentioned as the wife, did he in fact abandon HER when he had the relationship and a child by Harriet? It might explain John Henry acting for Probate rather than Eric McKinley Bethell. It might also explain why Alfred described himself as Single on the 1911 census.
Also, I've discovered the relationship of John Henry Bethell to our Alfred. He was Alfred's elder brother, the 2nd of 5 sons (Alfred was the 6th). It seems John Henry was also a Surveyor and, according to the 1911 census, an 'employer', so maybe that's why Alfred went into the profession also.
I'm beginning to think, because of all this and the to-ing and fro-ing, that Alfred was a man who didn't know what he wanted. As far as his death is concerned, it could be he was living on his own and simply died of natural causes.
I think I'll just leave this family to their own devices now, especially as we are talking about a relationship that is quite distal to the main trunk of the tree!
Thanks for your insights, Chatters. Stay safe, stay healthy
lydiaann
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As Christine53 mentioned in reply #27, there is a lot in the old newspapers. Whenever libraries reopen, I highly recommend that you take a look.
On one of the many articles of his funeral (at which only one person attended...some papers said it was his brother, other papers said it was his son), there was a person reminiscing about Afred's wife Kate:
Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette 16 August 1941
"Mrs. Bethell did not reside with her husband at 'Beechwood", but lived in Widcombe Hill and later in apartments in Prior Park. Nevertheless, whenever her husband wrote to acquaint her of his periodical visits to 'Beechwood,' she would go there herself to make things comforable, always attending to his requirements herself, even to cooking his meals."
His son, according to a snip in a 1923 paper, lived at the 'Beechwood'.
Many papers noted that he did not talk to neighbours, and would stay inside for weeks at a time, save for an evening walk.
It really lends itself to him having two families. Perhaps Harriet didn't find out until after the 1939 that he had another family, and really did believe she was married, and left before he died, or his brother, not wanting family scandal, may have quietly set her up somewhere upon Alfred's death.
If there was a "marriage" between Harriet and Alfred, it wouldn't have been legal, so there would be no record. I doubt you will ever know if she was duped by some sham ceremony, but it does seem odd that she stuck with the Bethell name if she knew she really wasn't one.
The scary part is this Alfred owned multiple properties.... he could have had a third family out there!
Anyways, file it all on the back burner, and when you can access the newspapers, use multiple search word variations to find every tidbit, such as Mrs. Bethell, Mrs K Bethell, Mrs Kate Bethell etc etc.
Good Luck!
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That was so interesting, bbart. For the moment, I think I'd like to put part of that in as a 'story' on my Ancestry site, if that's okay with you (with suitable attribution of course). I will get round to renewing my subs to Newspaper archives soon - currently, so much to do, so little time. (Himself recovering from cancer surgery, so all the lawns to mow, heavy lifting to manage, etc. etc. Still, that matters not, he's doing so well that I can spend a few mins to look at this thorny problem!)
I think Harriet possibly may have stuck with the Bethell name through 'saving face'. After all, she was in Kent and the 'main action' was in Bath...it would also have been better for Freda, not being viewed as 'illegitimate'.
It seems to me that he was becoming a bit of a recluse, possibly because he realised he was in over his head now that the two children were grown up and may start causing problems. I have a similar problem with someone in my distant past; she married a man and had 5 children with him, he left and 'married' another woman who had 4 more children. It seems he didn't want to face the music as he got older and simply disappeared off the radar. Maybe I'll apply the same principles to both families and scour the papers of the day.
Anyway, I'll let you know if I find more!
Cheers
lydiaann
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I'm now wondering if Harriet married Alfred Bethell after his wife, Kate Elizabeth died? Or even, did they marry at all? And if there was talk of a daughter, that would be Freda Frances but, as she was born in 1914, why did they not know about her? In any case, it looks as though she was Harriet's step-daughter.
This is the entry on https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1914
BETHELL Freda F Macgillivray Steyning 2b 395
MacGillivray is mms i.e. not 'step-daughter' of Harriet
Annie
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Annie: Thanks for that record, which in fact, I discovered over the following 48 hours. I can't think why I wrote that particular sentence on 21 August, as on the day before I wrote that:
"...So now I know that sometime between 1911 and 1914, she married an Alfred Bethell and gave birth to Freda Frances Bethell in 1914...".
Then, the day following, I actually did give a fuller account of the family as I had uncovered it. I WAS, at the time, under some major stress, so things probably went a little haywire in the old brain cells! The bit about the marriage was conjecture, as I hadn't (and still haven't) found a record of a marriage. But then, as Alfred was already married, I'm unlikely to do so.
I have - for the time being - abandoned this link to the MacGillivray family but I do, once again, thank you for your input.
Stay safe!
lydiaann