RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: ainslie on Wednesday 02 December 15 18:41 GMT (UK)
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I have a small ceramic dish with a heraldic device, handed down through the family, but of unknown origin. The motto on a folded band at the foot reads "A TOUT POURVOIR". The arms are on an oval plaque and I will try to add them in a later post but I always have problems in posting photos.
As a first shot, does anyone know whose motto this could be? The part of the family where we think this came from lived in Fife, but they were not entitled to arms, as far as we know.
Ainslie
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This could be of interest -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Oliphant
http://www.scotclans.com/scottish-clans/clan-oliphant/
JJ
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Thanks for that. I do not know of any family link with Oliphant, but who knows?
I hope to post a photo later, showing the rather strange arms which may tell you more.
A
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Maybe not related to your family at all - one of your ancestors could have picked it up at a house sale. ;) It might be useful if you could get it dated. Is there any maker's mark on the back of the dis?
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Sadly there are no clues as to the maker. The dish is saucer-like with no ridge for the cup to rest in, and there is a matching small bowl with the same markings.
I WAS still struggling to reduce the photo enough to post here, lacking the techie skills. I zseem to have won at last.
A
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This looks like the Oliphant arms impaled with those of another? Usually a wife's arms.
The Olipant arms are Gules three crescents Argent - i.e. a red shield with 2 white/silver crescents.
The arms are also surmounted by the unicorn's head crest.
Because the arms aren't on a shield, but in a oval, I would suggest they may be those of a female who married into the Oliphant line?
The impaled arms (on the right) would be: Argent a bend cotised sable three cinquefoils of the field. But I'm not finding that anywhere?
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Thanks for those thoughts. I will see if I can dig anything out about links with Oliphant, and will take a note of the impaled arms for later digging. The terms are helpful as I would have used something less refined!
A
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Very nice Ainslie. The execution of the lion in particular leads me to believe that this might be quite old - it has a 'primitive' look to it.
I think if you look at the materials, glaze and method of manufacture you may get further clues.
There may be some on here who know about such things if you would like to post more images (perhaps include a ruler or measure to give an indication of dimensions) - presumably photos from above and base.
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There is this one :-
Herr Brunwart von Augheim, a pale sable three cinquefoils argent.
Regards
Malky
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Malky,
2 problems with your find! ;D
First, that's a pale, and not a bend (a bend is diagonal).
Second, the bend is definitely cotised - it has narrow bands running on either side.
But, a nice try!
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I have taken more shots of the two objects with a scale in view and will post them once I have reduced the images. Neither of the items has any mark but both show signs of age such as would horrify the Antiques Road Show experts: cracks & chips.
A
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That is not necessarily the case. Chips and cracks add character and even with them value can still be high depending on the item. :)
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There might be an outside chance that the other arms are from a family by the name of Cary. Below is the arms of the well-known Cary family of Devon. Sometimes families with the same name as another (but with no proof of a common origin) adopted similar arms with a slight variation. Couldn't say it 100%, but there's a slight chance.
(http://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/other_countries/images/fig7.gif)
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Here is a shot of the two parts on what is probably a far more recent wooden mount. In the foreground is a six-inch rule showing some of the inch markings, I hope.
A
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The impaled arms (on the right) would be: Argent a bend cotised sable three cinquefoils of the field. But I'm not finding that anywhere?
KGarrad, I believe your blazon would be consistent with Dauney/Dawney of Woodbere (Devon) ...
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WF4OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA479&dq=dauney+woodbere&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG0oWVxcLJAhUF_Q4KHcEQAaYQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=dauney%20woodbere&f=false
... but another armory suggests the cinquefoils in the Dauney arms are or rather than argent. So this is inconclusive.
I believe the charges shown in replies ##8 and 12 above are roses and not cinquefoils.
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I believe the charges shown in replies ##8 and 12 above are roses and not cinquefoils.
Yes, the charges in the coat I put up were roses rather than cinquefoils.
It is hard to see from the original photo of the arms in question here, but it appears as if the centre is yellow (or certainly a different colour to the leaves), which would suggest roses rather than cinquefoils. The latter generally are either one colour or have a "doughnut"-like hole in the centre exposing the field on which the charge is placed.
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If they are roses (and I might admit defeat on that point!) then the family is Trenwith.
Trenwith: Argent, on a bend, cotised, sable, three roses of the field
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A nice set Ainsley. Someone thought it was worthy of a nice display stand. I wonder if that may be a coffee bowl? (Sorry I can't work out the dimensions from your photo).
No help in identifying the family though I'm afraid, but I see others have some good suggestions.
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Thanks to all who have responded. I shall be looking more closely at my Fife origins as a result.
The 'saucer' is 5 inches across and the bowl 3 inches. The flowers look more like the cinquefoils suggested above, rather than roses, to my non-heraldic eyes.
Ainslie
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The 'saucer' is 5 inches across and the bowl 3 inches.
Ainslie
Tiny!
Miniatures?
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Could be from a set for Chinese/Japanese tea?
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Could be from a set for Chinese/Japanese tea?
Um yes, could be. I was also thinking possibly a children's tea set.