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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Brown1777 on Thursday 10 December 15 22:09 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone assist me to find graveyard/headstone details for Alexander and Isabella(Bella) Turner? Alexander Turner was born 29 July 1869 in Hamilton - his parents Archibald (b.1832) and Christina Turner nee Binning (b.1848 d.1921). Alexander Turner married Isabella (Bella) Moffat(t) on 29 July 1902 in Ringsend Presbyterian Church, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. In 1881 they lived at 1 Brandon Street, Hamilton. They had one son Alexander in 1909. Any help would be very much appreciated.
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http://www.southlanarkshire.gov.uk/directory_record/140983/bent_cemetery
Bent Cemetery looks like your best bet. Contact details in the above URL. I've used them, very helpful. They will meet you at Cemetery to guide you to the right lair.
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Greenrig, many thanks - this is very helpful! I live in Northern Ireland , but will e-mail them to see if they can advise me/point me in the right direction.
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Is it possible for someone to do a "look up" in Bent Cemetery for me? I am looking for a lair of Alexander Turner and his wife Isabella Turner nee Moffatt. They also had a son Alexander born in 1909. Many thanks in anticipation! Brown1777
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It may be an idea to have dates & areas of deaths to know where they are likely buried & who to contact.
Here's the death for Isabella from scotlandspeople site, downloadable although she did not die in Hamilton;
MOFFAT ISABELLA
51
1936
644/17 118
Govan
TURNER ISABELLA
51
1936
644/17 118
Govan
Either will give you exactly the same info. as all married women in Scotland are recorded under both their marital & maiden surnames.
By viewing this you will know if Alexander predeceased her to get a time frame of his death.
Annie
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Not sure if this helps but the 1902 marriage in Ringsend Presbyterian Church lists the groom as Alexander Nevin (labourer, Glasgow), father Thomas Turner (labourer).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1902/10280/5741479.pdf
(the register in the church also shows the same names)
Bella Moffat was born 25 June 1883.
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Good find aghadowey!
Strange OP didn't mention that, illegitimate possibly or mother remarried & Alexander took on step-father's surname?
Annie
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I had gotten the marriage record from the church register years ago but the other register online has the same information
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Many thanks, Aghadowey! Rosinish, nothing strange about it - I wasn't aware of the different surnames, but I bow to your supposition! When I delve further, if necessary I will get back to you.
Brown1777
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I wasn't aware of the different surnames, but I bow to your supposition!
My apologies but you didn't say you didn't have the marriage i.e. I assumed you did from..
"Alexander Turner married Isabella (Bella) Moffat(t) on 29 July 1902 in Ringsend Presbyterian Church, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland"
Annie
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I want to re-check a few things in my files but more than Alexander's name (and his father's name) don't add up.
Your information (from Scottish records perhaps?)-
Can anyone assist me to find graveyard/headstone details for Alexander and Isabella(Bella) Turner? Alexander Turner was born 29 July 1869 in Hamilton - his parents Archibald (b.1832) and Christina Turner nee Binning (b.1848 d.1921). Alexander Turner married Isabella (Bella) Moffat(t) on 29 July 1902 in Ringsend Presbyterian Church, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. In 1881 they lived at 1 Brandon Street, Hamilton. They had one son Alexander in 1909. Any help would be very much appreciated.
My feeling years ago when finding the Ringsend marriage was that the groom Alexander Nevin was perhaps local but had gone to Glasgow for work then returned to marry a local girl (this was not that uncommon in this area).
Added- Bella Moffat's parents were Robert Moffat & Sarah Carton (Cartan/Carten)
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Aghadowey
A couple of things to note - I am advised that Alexander Turner was definitely Scottish. Also in the Merchant Navy he became a "Master" in 1894. Is this likely for someone who signed with his mark" at his marriage in 1902?? There are some things that do not add up! Brown1777
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Is it possible for someone to do a "look up" in Bent Cemetery for me? I am looking for a lair of Alexander Turner and his wife Isabella Turner nee Moffatt.
I see that greenrig gave you contact details for Bent Cemetery eighteen months ago. What was the outcome of your approach to them?
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Or, have you considered asking Rootschat members sancti and Rodeo if they can find Turner in Bent Cemetery records they have access to? Or, you can purchase certain years via https://www.parishchest.com/Lanarkshire_Burial_Records_Books___LID15332 .
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In 1861, an unmarried Archibald Turner is boarding at a house in Union Street, Hamilton.
1871, he (aged 39), wife Christina (aged 23, so quite a bit younger than him), and their two young children, Robert aged 3yrs and Alexander aged 1yr are in Almada Street, Hamilton.
1881, as you have said, the family are at Brandon Street, Hamilton.
1891, the family, minus Alexander, are in Tuphall Road, Hamilton.
1901 still at Tuphall Road.
In all the above, Archibald is recorded as born Glasgow.
What actual records do you have that conclusively link 'your' Alexander Turner, who apparently married as surname 'Nevin' and with a father named 'Thomas Turner', to the above family group in Hamilton?
Where was Alexander jnr's (born 1909) birth and was his surname recorded as Turner or Nevin? What was recorded for his father's occupation. If born Scotland, is this where you got the marriage place and date details of his parents from?
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Ok, an Alexander Turner died 21st February 1904, whilst trying to save the crew of the American Schooner Willie L Newton. His father, Archibald Turner of Tuphall Road, Hamilton, received a gold watch and chain, awarded by the President of America for gallantry at sea, on behalf of his late son. This was reported in a number of newspapers in September 1904.
Given the fact that apparently 'your' Alexander Turner had a son Alexander born in 1909, this would rule him out as being the Alexander, son of Archibald and Christina Turner, who lived in Hamilton and explain why things 'haven't been adding up'.
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Brown1777, have you got the birth certificate of Alexander b 1909? If not, I think that is your first step, because it will tell you the date and place of the parents' marriage. If it says 1902 in Ringsend, then you are at least on the right track as far as the marriage.
Then you need to look in the 1911 census for Alexander, Bella and Alexander Jr to see where it says Alexander Sr was born, and also how old he was, as the marriage certificate only says 'full age'.
What else do you know about Alexander Jr? Where, when and whom did he marry, and when and where did he die? Have you got his marriage and death certificates?
I note with interest that a search on SP for Alexander Nevin, other surname Turner, mother's surname Moffat, produces a death in Greenock in 1989 of James Alexander Nevin or Turner, aged 83, and there is a birth of James Alexander Nevin in Glasgow Dennistoun in 1905.
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Forfarian/Scotsmum
Many thanks for your replies and very interesting details! I received an e-mail from South Lanarkshire Bereavement Services advising me that they had found interred in the Bent Cemetery in Hamilton Newest division lair 3140 - Archibald Turner 11/12/1919 aged 87; Christina Turner 27/04/1921 aged 74; and Thomas Turner 05/03/1945 aged 73. They advised that they were unable to locate a grave/lair for Alexander and Isabella Turner, despite lair 3140 being a double lair with 3141, with no interments in the latter. I have no details about Alexander Turner Jnr born in 1909 and do not have a birth or death certificate for him. Isabella Turner is my great aunt. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Brown1777
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So the authority that owns and manages Bent Cemetery, and maintains the records of who is buried there, cannot find a burial of Alexander Turner and Isabella Moffat. The logical conclusion is that they must be buried somewhere else.
Why do you think they were buried in Bent Cemetery? What is your evidence that Alexander Jr was born in 1909? Could this Alexander in fact be James Alexander Nevin, born in 1905? Did you ask the South Lanarkshire Council folk if they could find Alexander Nevin?
You really need to bite the bullet and get some certificates from SP. In particular
- birth of James Alexander Nevin or Turner in Glasgow in 1905. This will tell you whether or not you are looking at the right couple.
- death of Isabella Moffat or Turner in Govan in 1936. This will tell you the full names of both her parents, including her mother's maiden surname. It will also tell you whether or not she was widowed, which will help you to find the death certificate of Alexander, assuming of course that he died in Scotland.
Why do you think it was Bella Moffat's husband, whatever his name was, who became a master in the Merchant Navy? Have you looked for him in the Lloyds shipping registers? Who told you that he was Scottish?
AHA! I have just found a record of Alexander Turner in the British Merchant Seamen records on FindMyPast. Born 29 August 1880 in Garvagh, Ireland; next of kin, wife, Bella Turner, 70 Ann Street, Greenock. Not quite sure what his rating is - it looks like D keyman. A donkeyman operates a donkey engine, which is a small auxiliary engine. This looks much more plausible as an occupation for someone who was unable to sign his own name on his marriage certificate.
However there is another Alexander Turner, also D keyman, born in Edinburgh on 18 June 1880, who bears a passing resemblance to Bella's husband but has a different ID number.
I cannot find matching births of either of these Alexanders as either Turner or Niven in Scotland or Ireland, however. There is one in Edinburgh in 1880, but he was not born on either 18 June or 29 August.
There is a 20-year-old Alexander Nevin in Glasgow Dennistoun in the 1901 census. This is an exact match for both seamen born in 1880 (if they are indeed two different people). The original census can be viewed at SP and should tell you where this Alexander Nevin was born.
I've attached the photographs of the two merchant seamen. Do you think they are the same man?
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www.twinsornot.net (http://www.twinsornot.net) gives 100% match. Whether it can be believed of
course is another matter ;) ;D
Joy
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I don't think the 2 photos are of the same man. I'm not sure if I've seen that photo before or he resembles someone I've seen a picture of :-\
There is a 20-year-old Alexander Nevin in Glasgow Dennistoun in the 1901 census.
Also in the same household is a Thomas Logan born Ireland. Tried to find his birth to see where he was born but can't find him yet.
Just to keep in mind for now AFTER those SP certificates are checked-
There were Logans and Nevins living in the same area (Ringsend/Macosquin).
The birthplace Garvagh points to a connection with Turners of Ballynameen (Alexander & Thomas both common in that family)
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There's a WW1 Medal Card for an Alexander Turner, born Garvagh 1882, who was a seaman:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8107461
The British Merchant Seaman record that Forfarian listed for an Alexander Turner with wife Bella Turner, when viewed mentioned he had a WW1 medal.
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Thank you all for your very helpful replies and many questions.
Alexander Turner was definitely Scottish and according to my uncle was not related to the Turners of Garvagh. I have also managed to track down a photograph of Alexander Turner, Isabella Turner nee Moffatt and their son - unfortunately when I try to attach it I get an error message saying that the Photograph is too large!
Brown1777
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Alexander Turner was definitely Scottish and according to my uncle was not related to the Turners of Garvagh. I have also managed to track down a photograph of Alexander Turner, Isabella Turner nee Moffatt and their son - unfortunately when I try to attach it I get an error message saying that the Photograph is too large!
Why does the family think Alexander Turner was 'definitely Scottish'? The accent around Garvagh/Ringsend is very similar/often mistaken for that of Ayrshire.
How does your uncle know that Alexander Turner wasn't related to the Turners of Garvagh? If that they didn't know about his surname being Nevin on the marriage certificate then there's quite a lot they didn't know or wasn't talked about.
What about the Scottish certificates that were mentioned earlier? what additional details do they provide?
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Aghadowey
Thank you. My uncle was born in Ringsend, County Londonderry and lived most of his life there. I think he knows the accents. His aunt was married to Alexander and he met him on a number of occasions. Yes, I accept that he did not know about Alexander's name being Nevin, but as he was Scottish, it is hardly surprising. Probably not something that was discussed over a meal. My uncle also knows the Turners of Garvagh, we are also related to them. Interestingly, a cousin in Australia had the name recorded and I am corresponding with him to see if he can throw any light on Alexander Turner, who he has stated was born in 1869. As I said previously I need to delve further. Brown1777
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The SP index to the 1911 census has a Turner family in Belshill, Lanarkshire which might be a match - Alexander age 30; Bella age 28; James age 6.
Isobel
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So, what details were on the certificates mentioned in reply #18?
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Aghadowey
Assumption again Brown1777
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So, what details were on the certificates mentioned in reply #18?
The reason for looking at those certificates is to check facts (as on the documents) rather than assuming anything.
If Alexander Nevin/Turner was Scottish then he would be in 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 census records (and they should say place of birth which would help finding his birth certificate). As far as I can see on this thread a possible Alexander Nevin (born Ireland) was found in 1901 census and a very likely Alexander Turner (with Bella & James) in 1911 census. The 1911 census will give place of birth (if born in Ireland might list a more exact location).
Don't think you can discount the record found earlier-
AHA! I have just found a record of Alexander Turner in the British Merchant Seamen records on FindMyPast. Born 29 August 1880 in Garvagh, Ireland; next of kin, wife, Bella Turner, 70 Ann Street, Greenock. Not quite sure what his rating is - it looks like D keyman. A donkeyman operates a donkey engine, which is a small auxiliary engine. This looks much more plausible as an occupation for someone who was unable to sign his own name on his marriage certificate.
I can think of 2 other resources (not online) that might pin down the origins of Alexander Nevin/Turner if he was born in Ireland but no point in doing so until other resources have been checked.
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I have just viewed the 1911 census entry on Scotland's People (only cost 6 credits) and the following is shown-
28 Bothwell Park Rows, Belshill
Alexander Turner, 30, coal miner (hewer)- colliery, born Ireland Co.Derry
wife Bella Turner, 28, married 9 years, 1 child/1 living, born Ireland Co.Derry
son James Turner, 6, school, born Lanarkshire Glasgow
The above fits with the marriage of Alexander Nevin & Bella Moffat, the James Turner/Nevin found in Scottish records, etc. as well as the Merchant Seaman record giving his birthplace as Garvagh.
So, my 'assumption' that he was born here and moved to Scotland is not as unlikely as you think.
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Assumption again Brown1777
Aghadowey did not assume anything, merely urged you follow up a theory, which the evidence amply shows is correct, namely that Alexander Nevin or Turner was born in Ireland in 1880. You have three separate pieces of evidence to prove beyond any question that this theory is correct
- the 1911 census
- the merchant seamen records
- the medal card
and there are potentially other things you have been told about and could easily get, for example
- the 1901 census
- the birth certificate of James Alexander Nevin
- the death certificate of Isabella Moffat
If anyone has been making assumptions, it is you. You have assumed that your family hearsay is accurate. Facts are chiels that winna ding. Your original posts contain six 'facts' that have been proved incorrect
- that Alexander was the son of Alexander Turner and Christina Binning (that Alexander died in 1904)
- that he was born in Hamilton (that was the 'wrong' Alexander Turner)
- that he was born in 1869 (you have evidence to show that he was born in 1880)
- that he became a captain (he was unable to sign his name, and he was a donkeyman)
- that he and his wife are buried in Bents Cemetery (the cemetery owners have no records of him there)
- that his son was born in 1909 (it appears that the son was born in 1905)
I would also point out that aghadowey has been kind enough to spend 6 credits (£1.50) to buy information that you had already been advised to get for yourself.
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I looked at the 1905 birth for James Alexander Nevin which confirms his parents as Alexander Nevin and Isabella Moffat and notes that they married in Ringsend, Ireland in 1902 as per previous posts. I have also found a notice from the Belfast News Dec 31st 1908 which mentions br Alexander Nevin in connection with ( orange) lodge in Springburn, Glasgow.
I am with other posters in believing that Alexander was Irish. I am not, however totally convinced that the 1911 census in Bellshill is them as it seems quite a departure in occupation for Alexander. Other details are a close match though.
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I've just been trying, yet again, to find the birth of Alexander Nevin or Turner, again without success, on both GRONI and irishgenealogy.
There is a family in Garvagh in the 1901 census consisting of Thomas Turner, 70; wife Nancy Turner, 65; son William Turner, 30; daughter Esther Turner, 28; son Thomas Turner, 26; daughter Jane Turner, 24. All born Co Derry. However I have failed to find any of their births on either site.
I have to go out now, but might try again later unless some other information comes to light in the interim.
Has Alexander's death certificate been found?
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SP has three deaths for an Alexander Turner that might be worth checking-
1946 in Springburn age 66
1965 in Greenock age 84
1969 in Greenock age 88
Isobel
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OP might have a better idea of when Alexander died (although I can't see a date mentioned when originally asking for headstone details and that's usually something that would be mentioned in such a request).
The census is only a brief glimpse of a person on a particular night and I wouldn't rule out the 1911 record on basis of occupation as Alexander was maybe just a coal miner for s short time trying to support his family.
From the 1902 marriage record it's more likely that Alexander's mother was Nevin and father was a Thomas Turner. A likely Thomas Turner is the one who appears in 1901 census married to Nancy (Moody)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Garvagh/Ballynameen/1519712
Just as an aside- daughter Jane in census married 1906 to William Berryman-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10142/5689995.pdf
Tragically, she & her husband were murdered by his brother (known locally as The Berryman Murders) in 1908, leaving an infant daughter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05508/4543465.pdf
Perhaps OP's family in Scotland would have heard about this event?
Looks like her father Thomas Turner died in 1910-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05439/4521331.pdf
Death (1908) for Ann Turner says she's a widow (daughter Jane murdered 6 months earlier so an upsetting time for family which might explain that)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05481/4535113.pdf
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Have found a bit more information on Alexander Turner but will wait for OP (who has been online several times since 4 May) to acknowledge what's been posted so far before I add more.
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Seems that OP doesn't like what has been found, but I can report that the Alexander Turner who died in 1969 was the widower of Mary Gray Walker and the son of Neil Turner and Sophia Edwards. So back to the drawing board.
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I've just had a look at the 1936 death cert of Isabella Turner/Moffat. According to that she was 'married to Alexander Turner, Ship Donkey Engineerman', so looks like Alexander was still alive in 1936. The informant was her son James Turner who had an address in Greenock.
Isobel
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Isabella's death certificate again confirms the identity of Alexander. Hopefully this week I'll be able to get a bit more information from this end.
At least there's 3 of us sorting out the correct Alexander Turner :-\
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Can anyone assist me to find graveyard/headstone details for Alexander and Isabella(Bella) Turner? Alexander Turner was born 29 July 1869 in Hamilton - his parents Archibald (b.1832) and Christina Turner nee Binning (b.1848 d.1921). Alexander Turner married Isabella (Bella) Moffat(t) on 29 July 1902 in Ringsend Presbyterian Church, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. In 1881 they lived at 1 Brandon Street, Hamilton. They had one son Alexander in 1909. Any help would be very much appreciated.
I can confirm that the above Archibald Turner and Sarah Binning are buried in Bent Cemetery and that their son Alexander was lost at sea 1904, as per info on the headstone