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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: Stuart273 on Sunday 13 December 15 09:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi all.
Here's a little conundrum I've come across which I would like some help with please. I have a couple of speculations of my own, but first the facts:
Henry Henderson (born c.1847) married Jessie Henderson (born c.1844, different line of Hendersons) on 12th March 1869.
They had one son, Andrew, before the marriage in January 1869.
They had 4 other children up to 1887 - Joan/Jeann, Thomas, Jane and Henry.
On the 1901 census Hary appears - aged 3, as a son.
in 1909 Thomas marries Mary Anderson, and one of the witnesses is Harry Henderson.
In 1910 Harry Henderson (age 23) marries Isabella Elliott in St Giles, Edinburgh. The certificate gives his parents as Andrew Henderson and Jessie Henderson (m/s Henderson which would fit), and his address as Melrose Place, St Boswells which also fits.
Both Thomas and Harry have a son in St Boswells before 1915 which they name Henry.
I cannot find a record of Hary, Harry or Ha*y Henderson being born in Roxburghshire between 1880 and 1900 on Scotlandspeople
So, the theories, because none of this adds up properly:
If Hary is Harry then the age on the 1901 census is wrong. However Hary/Harry doesn't appear on the 1891 census which he should do if he was 23 when he got married.
If Hary isn't Harry, then it's a big coincidence that the Harry who got married in 1910 had a mother whose name was Jessie Henderson (m/s Henderson) and father's name was the same as the first born Andrew of the other Jessie, and who lived in the family home.
Andrew is Hary/Harry's father, the mother was unknown so they used Andrew's mother's name as the mother (I don't want to think about the other possibilities in this scenario!).
Harry got confused at the wedding and he gave the wrong name for the father (there are no witnesses on the certificate).
Is there something I've missed, or does anyone have any other theory as to what could have happened please?
Cheers
Stuart
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Hello Stuart273,
Harry (& in Scotland, Hen, Hend & Hairy) are short/pet forms of Henry/Hendry.
There is a birth for a Henry Henderson in 1887 at St Boswells, Roxburghshire. (ScotlandsPeople). Might be worth checking.
I think the transcription on 1901 Census is wrong because Hary, supposed age 3, is listed as a scholar!
Regards, Dod.
PS. Hary, 1901 is probably the Henry age 3 on 1891 Census.
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Hi Dod
Thanks for replying and for your help. I hadn't thought of the Harry/Henry pet name thing, and the Henry born 1887 does belong to the family as I've checked the certificate but had him and Harry as 2 different people so that would make sense. Thanks for clearing that up - I'll assume it was a mistranscription on the census.
However this still leaves the mystery of why Andrew appears on the wedding certificate as the father. Yes he was born in 1869 so would have been 17/18 when Henry was born but Henry (elder one) appears as the father on the birth certificate, not Andrew. And I'm not sure on this point but wouldn't legal names rather than pet names be required on the wedding certificate? If that is the case then either he changed it officially (I have no idea how to check that) or he's a different Harry born elsewhere in Scotland with the same mother but a different father and living in the family home, which doesn't seem likely.
It's at times like these I'd like access to a Tardis!
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Stuart273 you are getting yourself in a right muddle
Henry/Harry seems to be a family name which will show up in each generation in some form either the eldest or second of siblings in Andrew's generation in similar years and locations and subsequent generation it will appear in some other form
don't get worried about the use of Henry or Harry it probably means the same - the records back then would depend on what the clerk and family member registering the BMD wrote or said - like the name Jessie it can may other means not just Jessie, eg it could be Janet - not uncommon to be own official as one name and another within the family.
the confusion re fathers of Harry could be straight forward - it could be that Henry/Harry (Andrew's father) had a younger son called Henry, the same year son Andrew had son called Henry
it happens quite regularly
Also from what I can see Henry (born circa 1847) is the eldest son of a Andrew Henderson - so his grandfather was probably called Henry
Regarding the appearance in the census - it depends where a person was on the census day not where they lived - remember St Boswells Roxburghshire is the Parish of Mertoun (Berwickshire) - best to check both Roxburghshire & Berwickshire.
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Just an addition which may/may not help but Harry is also short for Harold.
Annie
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Hi both, thanks for taking the time to post, it is appreciated :)
I feel pretty comfortable now with Harry being the Henry who was born in 1887 and that it is a mistake on the census in 1901 (whether in transcription or not is another matter). Although Henry (born c.1847) is not the line of my relatives he did have a father called Andrew, and the first of his sons is called Andrew (b.1869). Any further back than that I haven't gone as it is Jessie Henderson who is my relative.
I'm not so sure with regard to the wedding though. Andrew (b.1869) died childless and a bachelor - it was Harry who registered the death in 1931 - so possibly Harry/Henry looked on him as more of a father figure than Henry (1847) his actual father. Or he could just have made a genuine mistake on the wedding certificate. I guess the only way we might clear it up is to find Henry/Harry's death certificate which I haven't managed to do as yet.
Whilst in request mode, are there electoral rolls for St Boswells going back as far as 1931 (or earlier) which are accessible please?
Cheers
Stuart :)
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Death cert are a good source of info, but you still have to be wary, especially if the person registering the death is not a close relative - eg if say register by son in law their knowledge may be limited regarding the names of the persons parents, especially the mother's name
Also check for RCE's
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A really useful site for first name variants, of which there are many (some obvious, some less so) is this one www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=harry
Monica
PS: Prince Harry, brother of William, is actually named Henry - as in Prince Henry of Wales - otherwise known as Prince Harry....
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Have you looked at the original image on SP for the birth that Dod mentioned earlier?
There is a birth for a Henry Henderson in 1887 at St Boswells, Roxburghshire. (ScotlandsPeople). Might be worth checking.
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Findmypast shows Hary Henderson as age 13 in 1901 so looks like it may be a transcription error where he appears as 3 (Ancestry?).
Isobel
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Hello Stuart273,
You don't need to use Credits to do a Search on ScotlandsPeople.
Click on 1901 Census Records. Search for Surname: Henderson. Forename: Hary. County: Roxburgh. Distict: St Boswells. Age Range: 13 To 13 comes up with 1 match. No match for age 3 To 3.
Try each of the Henderson family forenames from the 1901 Census (Henry, Jessie, Andrew, Thomas, Jeannie) in the 'Second Person Forename' box. Each one comes up as a match with Hary age 13 To 13. No matches with Hary age 3 To 3.
Pretty sure this is the right family and that Hary is 13 not 3. Like you, I think he is the Henry age 3 on 1891 Census.
Scots named their children in a particular order, now referred to as the Scottish Naming Pattern.
1st son named after the father's father. 2nd son after the mother's father.
1st daughter after the mother's mother. 2nd daughter after the father's mother.
Although not all families followed this order, from the following Census Returns the Henderson male line appears to.
1851. Courthill, Berwickshire.
*Andrew Henderson 29 b Channelkirk, Berwick. * (Hary's Grandfather)
Jean " 28 b Eckford, Roxburgh.
**Henry " 3 b Smailholm, Roxburgh. **(Hary's father)
Betsy " 1 b " "
1861. Ancrum, Roxburgh.
*Andrew Henderson 39 b Channelkirk, Berwick.
Joan " 40 b Bedrule, Roxburgh.
**Henry " 13 b Smailholm, Roxburgh.
Elizabeth " 11 b " "
William 10, Alexander 8, John 5 & Robert Henderson 8months.
1871. Maxton, Roxburgh. (Littledean)
*Andrew Henderson 46 b Channelkirk, Berwick.
Joan " 48 b Cavers, Roxburgh.
Elizabeth 23, Robert 9 & George Henderson 8.
1871. Maxton, Roxburgh. (Hails Houses)
**Hendery Henderson 25 b Smailholm, Roxburgh.
Jessie " 20 b Wilton, "
Andrew " 2 b St Boswells, "
1881. St Boswells, Roxburgh.
**Hendry Henderson 35 b Smailholm, Roxburgh.
Jessie " 36 b Minto, "
Andrew " 12 b St Boswells "
Joan 6, Thomas 4 & Jane Henderson 1.
1891. St Boswells, Roxburgh.
**Henry Henderson 42 b Smailholm, Roxburgh.
Jessie " 42 b Minto, "
Andrew " 22 b St Boswells, "
Thomas " 14 b " "
Janie " 11 b " "
HENRY " 3 b " "
1901. St Boswells, Roxburgh.
**Henry Henderson 52 b Smailholm.
Jessie " 52 b Minto.
Andrew " 32 b St Boswells.
Thomas " 24 b "
Jeannie " 21 b "
HARY " 3? b "
Henry & Jessie's 1st son named Andrew after Henry's father.
Both Hary/Henry & brother Andrew name their 1st son Henry after their father Henry.
Your Henry/ Hary was probably known within the family as Harry to distinguish him from his father Henry. Wouldn't need an 'official' name change. I've found lots of name differences between baptism & marriage records in my own family. Jane/Jean, Isobel/Isabel/Isabella, Elisabeth/Elizabeth/Betsy etc. (See Monica's post re: name variants)
You mention a marriage at St Giles, Edinburgh with no witness names. Does it say "Warrant of the Sheriff" or something similar in the column the witnesses names usually appear in? (Ive found a couple of marriages at St Giles in my tree. Both were by Sheriff Warrant) If so, the witnesses names will be in the 1st column, titled When, Where & How Married. "By Declaration in the presence of.....(Witnesses names)".
Hope you manage to find Hary/Henry's DC. Good luck with your search.
Regards, Dod.
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Hi all, and thanks for your continued help with this.
Busy few days at school (Christmas concerts etc) so not been able to follow anything further on the death front. However, Dod, you are correct in that the marriage of Harry was by warrant of the sheriff and the witnesses are indeed in the first column. Unfortunately they are both from the bride's side of the family though so that doesn't really help. You are also spot on about the namings, except it was Thomas who had a son Henry (who died at 6 days old) rather than Andrew who never married. I have more searching to do here yet and will do so in the next few days once work life has taken a back seat, but thank you all for affirming that Harry is the 1887 Henry and not a new person. I shall put a comment to this fact on the version of the 1901 census that I saw originally and hopefully anyone else who may be searching that line won't have to solve this particular conundrum for themselves.
You Rooties are brilliant. Thank you :)
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Don't dismiss the info on the brides side off hand
Not uncommon for cousins to marry in Scotland, so there may be a link through the generations of the same name