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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 08:54 GMT (UK)

Title: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 08:54 GMT (UK)
Daniel Livermore of Bishops Stortford refers to four cottages he had lately built in his will dated 22nd June 1846 (the day before he died). They were in New Town part of BS and he mentions some tenants in his will:
Abraham Thickens, (no forename) Matthews, John Percy and (no forename) Lundy. I had hoped that I could locate at least one of these people on either the 1841 or 1851 census, which might lead me to the location of the cottages, but they seem to be rather elusive.
Can anyone please help identify where the cottages are (or were).
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 09:20 GMT (UK)
I've just found a newspaper article dated 25 Nov 1843, refers to Daniel as the owner of four cottages, letting three and living in one himself. So they were built before that date.
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 10:26 GMT (UK)
Hi

Livermore died when?
There are 2x more possible deaths including
{Adult} Deaths
1859 QJun  B. Stortford 3a 119
1898 QSep B.Stortford 3a 362 aged 82

The date of death you imply could very well be the one from . . . . . ?

Daniel Livermore      / baptism  8 Mar 1840 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 William Livermore   /  baptism 27 Mar 1842 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 Hannah Livermore   / baptism 29 May 1844 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 James Livermore     / baptism 24 Jan 1847 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 Ruth Livermore       / baptism 30 Apr 1849 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 Thomas Livermore / baptism 27 May 1851 / Daniel & Elizabeth
 Hannah Livermore / burial 7 Mar 1861
ALL  Bishops Stortford Congregational Church
 

Ray

 
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: josey on Monday 14 December 15 10:48 GMT (UK)
There's a bit about New Town here:
http://www.stortfordhistory.co.uk/guide14/new-town/
south of the town centre apparently
Church records first mention New Town in the 16th century, the name perhaps a little exaggerated at that time as it probably applied to only a few scattered houses south of the town centre. No buildings survive from that period but a few small developments built in the early 19th century do still stand in Newtown Road and Apton Road.

ADDED: There are some road names here on this 1892 map which you could try on a census  address search.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.8672&lon=0.1574&layers=168
There are several terraces of 4 cottages NE of the word New Town.
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 10:49 GMT (UK)
Quote from: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 08:54 GMT (UK)
Daniel Livermore of Bishops Stortford refers to four cottages he had lately built in his will dated 22nd June 1846 (the day before he died).

Daniel Livermore senior died on 23rd June 1846. I have a copy of the death certificate

The 1859 death was Daniel snr's grandson (born 14 Dec 1839, bapt 8 Mar 1840), and the 1898 death was Daniel snr's son.

The Hannah who was buried on 7 Mar 1861  was Daniel snr's widow.   
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 11:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzie

So they are a part of the family at the relevant point in time?
ie Daniel is married to Elizabeth?
If so then Daniel is still alive a lot later . . . . . ?

Mr Percy looks to me like Mr Perry on your doc.
Mr Thickers/ens appears to be a bargeman (1841) living close to Jane Livermore +2 others

Ray

Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 11:31 GMT (UK)
Ho Hi Josey

Yes but 1851 has most of the addresses in the  "New Town" section listed just as New Town.

 :'(

Ray
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 11:56 GMT (UK)
Quote from: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 11:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzie

So they are a part of the family at the relevant point in time?
ie Daniel is married to Elizabeth?
If so then Daniel is still alive a lot later . . . . . ?

Mr Percy looks to me like Mr Perry on your doc.
Mr Thickers/ens appears to be a bargeman (1841) living close to Jane Livermore +2 others

Ray

Daniel senior was baptised in 1785, married Hannah Holgate in 1812 and died in 1846.
His son Daniel was born in 1816, he was the Daniel who married Elizabeth Bradford (widow- nee Law) on 23 June 1839 and had the children whose baptisms you have found plus Emma born 20 Mar 1854 - have not found her baptism.
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: josey on Monday 14 December 15 12:02 GMT (UK)
I see what you mean about the 1851 Ray  :o.

What's the ref & enumerator's walk for the 1841? The terraces of 4 on the map I found were mostly in present day Castle Street.
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 12:29 GMT (UK)
The Abraham Thickens who is a bargeman is in Thorley parish not Newtown, he is still in Thorley in 1851. The Jane Livermore who is on same page as him isn't related to mine - or if she is it's so distant I haven't found the link yet.

It's a shame there doesn't seem to be any older BS maps on line. There was a lot of expansion in that part of BS in the 1850s. A lot of the short terraces have their names carved into the stone (or concrete) on the front but only the road they're in appears on maps. They don't get named separately.
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: josey on Monday 14 December 15 15:45 GMT (UK)
1841 HO107/434/23/41 has an Abraham Thicking 68 shoe manufacturer in South St, BS.

Quote from: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 12:29 GMT (UK)
A lot of the short terraces have their names carved into the stone (or concrete) on the front but only the road they're in appears on maps. They don't get named separately.
So when they are knocked down.....they're gone. Might there be old photographs at a local archive or library?
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 16:08 GMT (UK)
HiWould someone explain the date?
Is it the date of entering/creation of the will details into the Bishop's Records.
Ray


D/ABW 138/2/24  Will of Daniel Livermore of Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, labourer 
 
Repository:Essex Record Office
Level: CategoryArchdeaconry records
Level: FondsCOMMISSARY OF BISHOP OF LONDON
Level: Sub-FondsWILLS
Level: FileWills
Level: ItemWill of Daniel Livermore of Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, labourer
Reference Code:D/ABW 138/2/24
Dates of Creation:1 March 1847
Title:Will of Daniel Livermore of Bishops Stortford, Hertfordshire, labourer
Date From:1847
Date To:1847
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: [Ray] on Monday 14 December 15 16:11 GMT (UK)
Hi

The enumerators walks only exist online for 1 of the 6 books.
The others weren't copied.
Need to go back a step to get them.

Ray
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 14 December 15 16:22 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much, The Abraham in South Street looks like a possibility. Can't see him in 1851, he might be the death reg in BS district in Q2 1842 as Abraham Thickens (the same spelling as in Daniel's will).
I had assumed that the 4 names in the will meant one in each of the four cottages, but one could have succeeded another. 


The date in March 1847 is probably when it was entered into the register.
The executor Jones Gifford Nash (brewer) was sworn on 25th February 1847, so it took 8 months to get probate.

added, just checked the document again - it was proved on 1st March 1847 before the rev Charles Spenser Clk Surrog PC
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: M R James on Wednesday 08 January 20 16:58 GMT (UK)
Hi Lizzie
I have Daniel's bible listing seven children.  It is very battered and I don't know if it was the one that had been referred to elsewhere. My line is Daniel 1785, Daniel 1816, James 1846, Harry 1883, Cyril 1924. I am very rusty on family history but I should be related to your husband. But I don't know how.  I was very interested in your work on the Livermores around the Chestefords and Saffron Walden. I do the One Name Guild Livermore site. This is the first time that I have tried posting on RootsChat. I am also contactable via the Livermore ONG site.
Best wishes

Roger M Livermore
Title: Re: Where are (or were) the cottages built by Daniel Livermore?
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 09 January 20 16:32 GMT (UK)
Hello Roger, my husband would be your 3rd cousin. He is descended from Daniel 1816 via James's younger brother Thomas.
We saw the bible on an auction web site but were too late. We were sent a good scan of the page with names and dates of birth. We were also told it had gone to a family member so that was good.
I have always wondered who wrote it. The writing is so similar for all of them that I don't believe that it was a contemporary record of the births, but all written at the same time much later. Daniel and Elizabeth (nee Law) both signed x on their marriage cert, so not likely to be them. Looking at the children's writing on marriage certs, Emma and Thomas have closest writing. Another possibility is their aunt Mary. She seems to have separated from her husband William Bull and lived with Daniel and Elizabeth for some time. She signed her name on her marriage record, but as it was so much earlier than I suspect the names were written in the bible, difficult to compare the writing.
Daniel (1838) and Ruth's names are crossed out as they died young and I think a date of death is written by Ruth's name but very faint.