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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: atlantikman on Tuesday 15 December 15 20:16 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
My Great Grandfather Thomas Henry married Margaret Wilson in 1889 Belfast. According to the 1939 Register, he was born on 5th December 1863. The 1911 Census shows him as born in Newry County Down. His brother George Henry was also born there on 20 March 1866. George married Mary Wilson in 1893 Belfast. Margaret and Mary were sisters, whose parents were John Wilson and Mary Young.
I cannot find a birth record for Thomas as he was born just before civil registration stated in 1864. George's parents were Moses Henry and Margaret Duggan and they were married in 1859 Newry. The marriage record shows Moses was aged 22/1837, a Labourer, and his father was George Henry, a Weaver. Their religious denomination was shown as Church of Ireland; but on the 1901 Census Moses is shown as Presbyterian. I think Moses may have had a brother Hugh, possibly also a Weaver, who married Agnes Kane in 1850 Newry Armagh.
A family story is that the Henry's are from French Hugenots who emigrated to Ireland in the 15th Century. I would love to be able to find out more about George Henry of Dysert/Desert.
Paul.
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George Henry Weaver Dysert
John Henry Labourer Dysert
Hugh Henry Weaver Dysert
http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ShowFreePage.php?id=323
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Henry, John Marriage
Wife: Anne Lister
Marriage Date: 31 May 1850
Husband's Father: Moses Henry
Wife's Father: John Lister
http://countydown.x10.mx/html/newry.htm
A few other Henrys named
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Hi Hallmark -- thanks for that. I was aware of that info.
Paul.
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To save people wasting their time by searching for then posting details you already have found it really does help if you tell us exactly what information you already have.
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To save people wasting their time by searching for then posting details you already have found it really does help if you tell us exactly what information you already have.
Indeed!
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Here is the marriage of Moses Henry:
1859 Marriage:
Type Civil Marriages
Date Of Marriage 20/11/1859
Husband Firstname MOSES
Husband Surname HENRY
Husband Address DYSART [DESERT?]
Husband Occupation LABOURER
Husband Age 22/1837
Husband Denomination Church of Ireland
Husband Marital Status Bachelor (Previously unmarried)
Husband Father Firstname GEORGE
Husband Father Surname HENRY
Husband Father Occupation WEAVER
Husband Mother Firstname
Husband Mother Surname
Husband Witness Firstname HUGH
Husband Witness Surname HENRY
Wife Firstname MARGARET
Wife Surname DUGGAN
Wife Address SHINN
Wife Occupation
Wife Age 21/1838
Wife Denomination Church of Ireland
Wife Marital Status Spinster (Previously unmarried)
Wife Father Firstname WILLIAM
Wife Father Surname DUGGAN
Wife Father Occupation BLACKSMITH
Wife Mother Firstname
Wife Mother Surname
Wife Witness Firstname NATHAN EDWARD
Wife Witness Surname SMITH
Denomination
Comment BY LICENCE REV D BAGOT.
Address1 ST MARYS NEWRY Church of Ireland
Address2 NEWRY & MOURNE
Address2 NEWRY
Address4 Down.
I have found Moses on the 1901 Census and it looks like he died in 1913. I have also found this:
Moses Henry, Newry: husband of Margaret Dougan/Dugan; father of George b. 20 Mar 1866 & Marguret b. 10 Apr 1868 & Samuel b. 12 Mar 1870 & Agnes b. 14 May 1872.
I know a fair amount about Samuel Henry, who married twice. I have found no births between Moses's marriage in 1859 until my Great Grandfather Thomas Henry born in 1863.
This could be Hugh Henry, with a spinster sister:
1901 Census: 4 The Commons, Rathfriland, Down:
Agnes Henry head/single Presbyterian 65/1836 Seamstress B Co Down.
Hugh Henry brother/widower Presbyterian 70/1831 B Co Down.
It looks like Agnes died in 1905 and Hugh in 1907.
Paul.
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I have found Moses on the 1901 Census and it looks like he died in 1913.
Where was he in 1901? I certainly couldn't find the entry. Please post a link to the census record since you've apparently found him.
Have you found a death in 1913? this should be easy enough to verify via GRONI's site where you can view the actual certificate.
If you found him in 1901 and he did die in 1913 then he should also be in the 1911 census.
I have found no births between Moses's marriage in 1859 until my Great Grandfather Thomas Henry born in 1863.
You need to search for church records for pre-registration births. Have you tried to do this yet?
It looks like Agnes died in 1905 and Hugh in 1907.
Again, you can view the certificates on GRONI's site.
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To save everyone else trying to find them, they are here....
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Newry_Rural/Commons/254212/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Newry_Rural/Commons/254174/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Newry_Rural/Commons/1245365/ seems weird!! age/relationship??
Certainly more than 1 Moses around!
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No -- he's not that one, but this one: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Ravensdale_Street/1260756/
He is with two known daughters of his:
1878 FamilySearch:
name: Sarah Henry
gender: Female
birth date: 12 Feb 1878
birthplace: Down, Down, Ireland
father's name: Moses Henry
mother's name: Margaret Henry Dougan
indexing project (batch) number: C00574-0
system origin: Ireland-EASy
source film number: 255997.
1880 FamilySearch:
name: Agnes Henry
gender: Female
birth date: 22 Apr 1880
birthplace: Down, Ireland
father's name: Moses Henry
mother's name: Margaret Henry Dongan
indexing project (batch) number: C00688-5
system origin: Ireland-EASy
source film number: 256050.
I could not find him in 1911.
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OK
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I've just found Moses Henry in the 1911 Census --- aged 14 -- should be 74. He is with his married daughter Sarah:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Foxglove/221078/
Paul.
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Children of Moses Henry & Margaret Dougan-
- George (20 Mar.1866) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPW8-1Y9
- Marguret (10 Apr.1868) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPYK-ZL4
- Samuel (12 Mar.1870) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F573-8DW
- William John (4 Mar.1874-1893) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FPBG-KY6
- Agnes (1 Feb.1876*) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXY-3DS
- Sarah (12 Feb.1878) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG6S-TMX
* Pound st., Newry is father's residence NOT his birthplace and this sort of detail usually indicates that the child was not born at home
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The Moses Henry who died 1913 Belfast was age 66 but the Moses Henry you found in 1911 was age 74.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRVQ-P6G
Belfast City Cemetery (F1 449)
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6301.48867
Miss Elizabeth Henry, age 17 3/12, 45 Kilmood St., died 11 Aug.1889, buried 13 Aug.1889
Mrs Margaret Henry, age 48, 45 Kilmood St., died 13 Sept.1892, buried 15 Sept.1892
Mr William John Henry, age 19, 45 Kilmood St., died 3 Aug.1893, buried 5 Aug.1893
Miss Agnes Henry, age 5 months, 70 Mount St., died 18 Aug.1896, buried 20 Aug.1896
Mr Moses Henry, age 66, 20 Foxglove St., died 7 Feb.1913, buried 9 Feb.1913
There is a death for Moses Henry 1918 Newry around the same age as the above one-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FR2K-TX7
Letters of Administration of Moses Henry late of Commons, Newry, County Down, farmer, who died 18 August 1918 granted at Belfast to Robert Henry, Commons, Newry, farmer. Effects: £255 12s 6d.
Your Moses Henry age 22 in 1859 according to marriage record-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGC5-8T8
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..."The Moses Henry who died 1913 Belfast was age 66 but the Moses Henry you found in 1911 was age 74...."
Reckon you need to do more research to follow the correct one!
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Hi aghadowey,
Thanks for all that info. I'm 100% certain we have the correct Moses Henry who died aged 66 in 1913 -- even though his age is ten years out! What confirms it, assuming this is a family grave, is that Miss Agnes Henry was the daughter of my Great Grandparents Thomas Henry and Margaret Wilson. Also my Grandmother (another daughter) was born in 70 Mount Street, Castlereagh in 1894. This branch relocated to Liverpool about 1898-1901.
The 1911 Census shows Moses Henry was born in "Co. Down Dysert T.L. C.D.". Not sure what the letters stand for, and yes I think he was born about 1837. His father George is living in Dysert (Desert?) about then.
Paul.
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I'm also concerned about a few other things here.
...
This could be Hugh Henry, with a spinster sister:
1901 Census: 4 The Commons, Rathfriland, Down:
Agnes Henry head/single Presbyterian 65/1836 Seamstress B Co Down.
Hugh Henry brother/widower Presbyterian 70/1831 B Co Down.
It looks like Agnes died in 1905 and Hugh in 1907.
Who is Hugh? (please stop saying 'it looks like'- either a person died in year X or they didn't. If you are not sure that a record you found is for the correct person it's okay to say so but these bits can usually be easily verified by viewing the certificates)
In view of the 1901 address listed above (The Commons) then the Moses Henry died 1918 is possibly related and PRONI has several other Henrys of The commons, Newry listed. For example,
Probate of the Will of William Henry late of The Commons Newry County Down Farmer who died 27 November 1903 granted at Belfast to Jane Henry the Widow. Will mentions wife Jane, a brother Moses and a daughter.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Newry_Rural/Commons/1245365
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Hello again Aghadowey,
Thanks for your info and advice. There is a Hugh Henry as witness to the marriage of Moses Henry to Margaret Duggan in 1859 Newry, giving his father as George Henry, a Weaver.
1848 PRONI t2961/1:28 April 1848: Citizens of Newry:
George Henry Weaver Dysert
John Henry Labourer Dysert
Hugh Henry Weaver Dysert
Assuming these three are related -- George might be the father, with two sons. So the 1901 Census might be Hugh with a sister Agnes. Yes, I had noticed in the Census's that The Commons has quite a few Henry's listed there, mainly Farmers. I have read somewhere that after the Famine and come the age of mechanisation, some Linen Weavers resisted the change by reverting back to Farming. So yes I agree they may be a link to my Henry's.
Paul.
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Early on weaving was a home industry and was often done in conjunction with farming which is why it's very common to find weavers eventually being listed as farmers.
My gut feeling is that the name Moses goes back a long way in the Henry family and that's why there are quite a few that don't, at first glance, seem to be closely related. However, I think you are jumping to conclusions in thinking that Henry is a brother of your Moses, etc.
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Hello
I've recently started investigating my family tree and I'm looking at the Henry family tree from the Newry area. I've been trying to find out more about Hugh Henry born 1827 died 1907. He is married to a Margaret Bartley. From Magarets death cert in 1897 she died at Rathfriland, Newry, Co. Down with Hugh reporting the death. In the Irish 1901 census Hugh is down as a widower living with his sister who is the head of the family. Every thing seems to check out apart from the reigion. From both their births through to marriage and death both are stated as being RC. Now Agnes has put an X for her name so it looks like somebody has filled it in for them. Is it possible they filled it in wrong or would somebody have changed religion? Can anybody please help.
1901 Census: 4 The Commons, Rathfriland, Down:
Agnes Henry head/single Presbyterian 65/1836 Seamstress B Co Down.
Hugh Henry brother/widower Presbyterian 70/1831 B Co Down.
It looks like Agnes died in 1905 and Hugh in 1907.
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This looks like death for the Hugh Henry you found in 1901 census-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05525/4548799.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05525/4548799a.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05499/4540577.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1908/05499/4540577a.pdf
Did yours have a grand-daughter called Mary Ann Gilmore? (see entries 3 & 4 above)
Death for Agnes Henry in 1905- nephew William G. Rantin was informant-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05582/4568117.pdf
Nephew seems to be William John Rantin- also Presbyterian:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Tullyhappy/Tullyhappy/307222
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Probate of the Will (and one Codicil) of Agnes Henry late of Kilree County Armagh Spinster who died 14 October 1905 granted at Armagh to William John Rantin and Benjamin Thompson Farmers
Will dated 25 Feb.1896 mentions nephew William John Ranten of Tullyhappy & Benjamin Thompson of Knockduff (executors). Also, nephew Robert Lindsay Ranton, niece Saragh Jane Gordon, niece Elizabeth Henning, niece Mary Ranton, nice Anna Ranton, niece Susan Ranton. Codicil dated 2 Sept.1905 mentions niece Sarah Jane Gordon's daughter Agness & son Robert.
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Agnes Henry (sister of Hugh Henry) died in 1909:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1909/05463/4528858.pdf
A Bella Gilmore, niece, was the Informant. I thought Hugh Henry married Agnes Kane in 1850 Newry Armagh and had a daughter Agnes Henry in 1851 who married Joseph Gilmore in 1870 Banbridge. Bella Gilmore, their daughter was born in 1887 according to the 1901 Census.
I'm not aware that this Hugh Henry married a Margaret, so we might have two (or more) Hugh Henry's here...
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Looks like we might have two Hugh Henry's. I'm totally confused. The 1901 Irish census has an address for Hugh of The Commons, Rathfriland, Down living with his spinster sister Agnes and Presbyterian as the religion (I have Hugh as Catholic). I followed a link on one of the threads which took me to the national archives for the 1901 census.This listed all the houses and their occupants of the commons. There were four Henry families registered, none of them Hugh and his sister and all Presbyterian. It looks like Henry is a popular name in Ireland so perhaps I've got things wrong. Hugh's wife died in Rathfriland, Down in 1897 but it doesn't give a specific address. Not knowing or coming from that part of the world (trying to find my Irish ancestors) I wouldn't know how big an area Rathfriland, Down is.
Thanks for the replies and help.
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Hi B thanks for the info. I see on FamilySearch your Hugh Henry married Margaret Bartley in 1849 Newry (parents Hugh Henry & Thomas Bartley). Whereas my Hugh Henry married Agnes Kane in 1850 Newry (parents George Henry & Hugh Kane). I'm assuming that you have worked back from someone (yourself?) and you have come down to this marriage conundrum. I cannot get back any further than George Henry. But it certainly looks like at least two Hugh Henry's in the Newry area at that time. I wonder who do you have as your Hugh Henry's descendants/children? Can you let us know what your direct line is? Mine is:
Mary Henry 1894-1949 married William Kelly in 1918;
Thomas Henry 1863-1941 married Margaret Wilson in 1889;
Moses Henry c.1837-1913 married Margaret Dougan in 1859;
George Henry.
Best wishes,
Paul.
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Thanks for the reply Paul
This is the first family tree stuff I have done for quite a while as all my dads side of the family went back to Ireland (grandad was N Ireland my nan side from the south). I got fed up of not getting anywhere. Anyway years later I'm having another go.
The Hugh Henry I have was born in 1927 in Clonallon Parish his death I have as 1907
He had a son John Henry christened 1850 Warrenpoint, County Down
Daughter Mary Jane Henry 1852 Warrenpoint, County Down
Daughter Margaret Henry 1856 Warrenpoint, County Down I don't have any more siblings.
John Henry moved to Liverpool around the age of 20 and married an Annie McEvoy 1877 Mount Carmel RC Toxteth Park(again her line goes back to Ireland)
They had 9 kids the youngest being my grandad born 1901 Emmanuel (Manny)
My grandad married Alice Whiting born 1904 Liverpool(again going back to Ireland but the Cork area) in 1934 again at Mount Carmel.
Hope this helps and thanks for the reply.
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Hi again,
No sorry I don't see any link with my Henry's sadly...
Checking my research, I see that I have this Hugh Henry b.c.1827 as a possible son of George Henry. As far as I'm aware George Henry had issue Aaron 1825; Hugh? 1827; Agnes 1828; William Martin; Moses c.1837; John and James.
You mentioned Commons, Rathriland, Down for the 1901 Census. I have a William Henry c.1836-1903 who is at 22 Commons, Church Street, Newry, Down in the 1901 Census with a daughter Mary Jane Henry b.c.1886. Mary Jane Henry married James Mcgaffin in 1910 Warrenpoint. Not sure if there is two Commons in Down... I know this William had a brother Moses Henry 1848-1918. If you have any on your tree, I have info on 12 Moses Henry's...
Paul.
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Was your Hugh Henry a Painter? I've found a marriage in 1879 Liverpool of a Mary Jane Henry 23/1856 married William Wagstaff. Her father was Hugh Henry, Painter. Then in 1889 Liverpool, a Mary Jane Wagstaff 38/1851 (Widow) of 13 Essex Street married John Watkins. Her father was Hugh Henry, (deceased) Painter. I noticed that on the marriage of John Henry to Annie Teresa McEvoy in 1877, Essex Street was mentioned there... All marriages are on Ancestry. It's maybe just a big coincidence...
Paul.
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Hello again
Thanks for your help and the info given. I've got Hugh's father down as Hugh married to Bridget Gribben. I'm not sue where this info came from possibly from my mum.
Regards
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Hello Paul
Yes Hugh Henry was a painter and so was his son John. And yes they all lived around Essex St or Upper Essex St.Liverpool. I hadn't got the marriage of Mary Jane and it looks like she is mine so thank you. I'll check more on Ancestry over the weekend when I have a bit more time.
Thanks again.
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Ok no problems. It looks like John Henry and his sister Mary Jane Henry both came to Liverpool. It looks like father Hugh died between his daughter Mary Jane Henry's two marriages 1879-1889.
Best wishes,
Paul.
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Good morning Paul
I've had a quick look at the info you sent. Evrything does seem to tie in appart from the death of Hugh the farther. I have a copy of his wifes (Margaret Bartley) death cert in 1897 where he is the whitness. I'll keep checking.
Have a good weekend
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I cannot find a death 1879-1889 for Mary Jane Henry's first husband William Wagstaff so I suspect her second marriage may have been bigamus... She is on the 1891 Census with her second husband (43 Essex Street) and her four children from her first marriage. That may be the reason why her father Hugh Henry was shown as deceased...
Paul.
Addition: found this death at sea on FindMyPast:
1886 FindMyPast Deaths At Sea: Wm Wagstaffe aged 32/1854 Fireman on SS Armathwaite; Malarial fever and congestion of the liver; died at sea 26.7.86. [surname spelt same way as in 1881 Census].
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Thanks for the info Paul
I've been checking the census, the 1891 census was a bit tricky as John Watkins was transcribed as Matheis, found hin through Daniel. They all seemed to live around the the Essex St. area in Liverpool. I've not had much time to search this weekend but will hopefully give it more time next week.
Regards
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on FindMyPast the 1891 Census record appeared ok. I've found this stuff:
1901 Census: 48 Essex Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool:
Mary J Watkins mother/married 48/1853 B Ireland Rostevon?
1911 Census: 39 Tennyson Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool:
Mary Jane Wagstaff head 60/1851 married 34 years/1877 B Warrenpoint County Down Ireland Resident.
1937 FreeBMD D Search: JFM 1937 Liverpool South 8b 253 Mary J Wagstaff aged 84/1853.
1937 FreeBMD D Search: JFM 1937 Liverpool South 8b 253 Mary J Watkins aged 84/1853.
Mary Jane reverted to her Wagstaff name on the 1911 Census with her three boys. It would be interesting to find out what name she used on her headstone (if any)...
And here is one of her boys:
1939 FreeBMD D Search: JAS 1939 Liverpool South 8b 178 Hugh Wagstaff aged 56/1883.
1939 Allerton Cemetery MI's: CE Section 14 Grave 257: SACRED / TO THE MEMORY OF / HUGH WAGSTAFF / BORN 24TH JUNE 1883 - DIED 25TH JULY 1939.
1939 Wills Calendar: WAGSTAFF Hugh of Clonallon Aigburth-road Liverpool died 25 July 1939 Probate Liverpool 25 September to William Henry Wagstaff assistant catering manager and William Abercromby solicitor. Effects £28190 19s 8d. Resworn £28905 13s. 10d.
Quite a bit of money there ... note the house name...
http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/C/Clonallon-Upper-Iveagh-Down.php
So I think there is some link to Clonallon near Rosstrevor.
Griffiths Valuation lists Gribbin/Gribbon in Clonallon, but I see no Henry's there.
Paul.
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Wow thank you very much
Just checked the will on Ancestry. I've found a William Henry Wagstaff in 1955 of Yew Tree Drive who left £474 to Emily Elizabeth Wagstaff. What did he do with the money? I take it he had a good time.
regards
I like the name of the house.