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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: StanleysChesterton on Thursday 17 December 15 23:37 GMT (UK)
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I am wondering where this coat of arms originates from.
Mary Stanley (b 1762) is daughter of Joseph Stanley (1728-1789) http://www.thepeerage.com/p41070.htm#i410696
Mary married William Wentworth and had a family.
Mary's brother (also Joseph Stanley, 1769-1856) outlived all his siblings, but left his vast fortune to Mary's downline IF they changed their name back to Stanley. Mary's son (William, 1793-1832) had died, so it went to the next generation (Sidney, 1828-1896). So they huffed and puffed a bit, but we all like a bit of money, so double-barrelled the name to Wentworth-Stanley, claimed the inheritance from (great uncle) Joseph and bought a nice big house.
At this point in time the newly wealthy and double-barrelled Wentworth-Stanleys appear to have joined their coats of arms together. They wrote, as you do, to the Queen - and it was all legal/agreed.
My question is: How come this Stanley family "suddenly" started having/using the Stanley arms?
ThePeerage gives as a source Burke's Landed Gentry, 1965, Volume 1, page 650 - but I don't happen to have a copy of this book on my bookcase here *grins*.
Can anybody shed any light on the question of: What is the source of this particular Stanley family having a claim to use the Stanley coat of arms?
Cheers.
For the record: Am I related? I doubt it, but who knows.... I am on the quest to find somebody else with the surname within 2 miles, so was wondering if Joseph (1728-1789) had any brothers, that's how I got caught up in this lot.... I had to "find out more about them" in order to eliminate them and understand their movements.
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I'm not sure what exactly your question is?
If Joseph Stanley was entitled to bear arms, then his daughter could use the arms (on a lozenge), and have these arms impaled with her husband's.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement_%28heraldry%29
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I'm not sure what exactly your question is?
If Joseph Stanley was entitled to bear arms, then his daughter could use the arms (on a lozenge), and have these arms impaled with her husband's.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement_%28heraldry%29
Sorry if I worded it with confusion.
I could see from ThePeerage that Mary was using the arms, but I couldn't see Burke's to see if she had entitlement via her father - and, so, who the heck he was (in the big scheme of things/where he came from).
I guess my question was whether she did get it from Joseph's entitlement .... rather than being "scooped up" in some strange twist of being married to Mr Wentworth.
I know that Mary, alone, as a girl, couldn't have .... and I haven't seen any evidence that anybody else in her family (Joseph with the fortune, or their father Joseph) was using it.
I don't know how it works, in the bigger scheme of things - so wondered if Mr Wentworth had some ability to "scoop up and use" arms of the name by some strange workings ....
So, you're saying that as the couple could join up the arms, then Mary's father must have DEFINITELY been a direct downline of the originator of those arms.
From that... my next area of vague interest would then be: so what is Joseph senior's upline and sideways line. I started off trying to find a Samuel, discovered Joseph (senior), so then wondered if Joseph & Samuel were in any way brothers.... and that's how I found Mary and then down to the arms being allowed.
Not sure I made that much clearer either :)
I know what I mean :)
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Hi there,
It's my belief that a "Coat of Arms" is given to one person " a man" ..not a family..if that "one person" has no son's then the Coat of Arms is not passed down.....if he has son's it goes to oldest son....the second/third /fourth and so on son's make a small change each on the father's Coat of Arms.
This I was told at a Genealogy Lecture and have since read the same
http://www.ancestralfindings.com/real-truth-behind-coats-arms-family-crests/
this link may help
cheers
Yonks
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The College of Arms explains this far better than I can!
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/the-law-of-arms
And Yonks Ago is quite correct!
There is no single coat-of-arms that applies to every Stanley family.
Every grant of arms applies to a single person, and his descendants may use the arms.
However, women, as well as men, may use the arms under certain circumstances ;D
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When you say "the" Stanley coat of arms, do you realize there is more than one? Finding the origin of the particular arms used by Joseph Stanley could help you in your quest to place the family.
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When you say "the" Stanley coat of arms, do you realize there is more than one? Finding the origin of the particular arms used by Joseph Stanley could help you in your quest to place the family.
Yes, I was struggling to get everything out, without it being a rambling big volume.
I know that one set of arms is given to one man and then his (male) descendants. When Mary's husband joined arms of her surname to his I realised that, somehow, Mary's ancestors must have had to right to those - but there was nowhere where I could see her upline family tree back to the originator....
I was checking that there wasn't some other way they could've started using them. That, in fact, Mary's father must've been the direct line from the originator of the arms.
You'd think that these people with arms would have an easily checkable/traceable, online/visible, clear family tree so you could see exactly where those arms came from.
The Question:
I guess my simple question might've been: Does anybody have Burke's? What does Burke's Landed Gentry, 1965, Volume 1, page 650 say about this family?
My question was buried in fluff.
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Just a bit confused here?
The Mary Stanley you referred to in your original post, you linked to ThePeerage.com.
That Mary Stanley married Daniel Wentworth?
Were you perhaps thinking of William Wentworth, 2nd Earl of Strafford (1626-1695) who married Lady Henrietta Mary Stanley, daughter of James Stanley, 7th Earl of Derby?
James Stanley was known as "Yn Stanlagh Mooar" ("The Great Stanley"), and was Lord of Mann on The Isle of Man. Hence my interest!
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Just a bit confused here?
The Mary Stanley you referred to in your original post, you linked to ThePeerage.com.
That Mary Stanley married Daniel Wentworth?
Were you perhaps thinking of William Wentworth, 2nd Earl of Strafford (1626-1695) who married Lady Henrietta Mary Stanley, daughter of James Stanley, 7th Earl of Derby?
James Stanley was known as "Yn Stanlagh Mooar" ("The Great Stanley"), and was Lord of Mann on The Isle of Man. Hence my interest!
Yes, the Mary that married Daniel Wentworth.
Joseph Stanley had a son and daughter (among others) Mary and Joseph.
Mary married Daniel Wentworth and had children.
Joseph (Mary's brother) never married/had no children, so left all his money to Mary/Daniel, but they HAD to change their surname to Stanley to inherit it.
Mary/Daniel were dead.
Their son had died.
Mary/Daniel's grandson Sidney Wentworth was therefore the heir.
So he changed his name to Sidney Wentworth-Stanley, to inherit.
Sidney Wentworth-Stanley then applied to join the Stanley coat of arms with the Wentworth coat of arms - and got approval for that.
ThePeerage has Mary Stanley and Daniel Wentworth listed on its site, but just points the reader to Burke's Landed Gentry, page 650, presumably for further details of Mary's upline/the source of the Stanley arms being used. The arms being used here are the blue/yellow ones: https://static.tradebit.com/usr/heraldics/pub/9001/Stanley--Irish-Crest.jpg
Wentworth-Stanley combined used the Stanley as a 1/4 and the Wentworth as a 1/4. I'll find a link for that.
The newspaper said:
Whitehall, July 19th, 1856.
The Queen has been pleased to give and grant unto Sidney Wentworth, of the town of Cambridge, in the county of Cambridge, gentleman, only surviving child of William Wentworth, late of the town of Cambridge and of Mary his wife, sister of Joseph Stanley, late of the town ..... Her royal licence and authority that he and his issue may ..... bear the arms of Stanley quarterly with those of Wentworth, such arms being first duly exemplified according to the laws of arms, and recorded in the Herald's Office ....
There is a description of the arms (first entry at top of page) in this online book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X8UujEDqn9oC&pg=PA963&lpg=PA963&dq=Stanley+arms+quarterly+Wentworth&source=bl&ots=5R0dan7fgp&sig=Xr4iQONQkk8xpbJXwMRww0lcdIM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKv8mxnOXJAhUG7BQKHVp4Cy0Q6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=Stanley%20arms%20quarterly%20Wentworth&f=false
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In summary, at the risk of becoming more confusing, I am asking, as the above seems to confirm it:
Mary Wentworth (nee Stanley) 'inherited' the Stanley arms through her brother Joseph Stanley (died 1856).
He must have got it from his father Joseph Stanley (1728-1789).
So who did Joseph Stanley (1728-1789) get it from?
Did Burke's (which I have never seen), give a clue on page 650?
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???
ThePeerage.com says:
Sidney Stanley was born on 21 December 1828.1 He was the son of William Wentworth and Mary Ann Newport. He married Sara Foster, daughter of Edmond Foster, on 27 April 1859.1 He died on 9 July 1896 at age 67.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p40965.htm
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???
ThePeerage.com says:
Sidney Stanley was born on 21 December 1828.1 He was the son of William Wentworth and Mary Ann Newport. He married Sara Foster, daughter of Edmond Foster, on 27 April 1859.1 He died on 9 July 1896 at age 67.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p40965.htm
Yes, Sidney married Sara Foster. But I am interested in the root of the Stanley right to arms. His upline.
Sidney's great-grandfather Joseph's line/right.
From ThePeerage http://www.thepeerage.com/p41071.htm#i410702
Joseph Stanley1
M, #410702, b. 1728, d. 1789
Joseph Stanley was born in 1728.1 He died in 1789.1
He lived at Holbeck Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire, England.1
Citations
[S35] BLG1965 volume 1, page 650. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [S35]
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Doesn't appear to answer your specific question but had you seen - London Gazette
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21905/page/2554
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Doesn't appear to answer your specific question but had you seen - London Gazette
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21905/page/2554
Yes, that was what first got me onto it - and wondering "who was Joseph then, if he had the arms ..." as I have no family tree for him and you'd think, for people with arms, it'd be easy to tap into their tree to see the route those arms took.
I started with a Samuel, gent. I then looked around to see who else lived within 1-2 miles of him to see if I could piece together his family .... and discovered Joseph. So I plotted Joseph's family, in case they lead me to any clues as to the root of Samuel (e.g. were Joseph/Samuel brothers) ... and as I plotted out Joseph's tree I discovered the intriguing son-of-Joseph who left all this money to his great-niece Mary .... and then the arms popped up.
So then I thought "Oh, arms - it'll be easy to find out more about Joseph (b 1728) then, that'll be well documented .... and I might find Samuel in his tree somewhere". But I've found nothing. All information I have starts with Joseph (b 1728).
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There is an online tree on ancestry for this family, but unfortunately it starts with Joseph.
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There is an online tree on ancestry for this family, but unfortunately it starts with Joseph.
Cheers for that. Joseph is so easy to find.... I found him and his entire family in one church in one town. But, no clues beforehand.
It has to be out there.... he has arms .... you'd think that the posh people'd have ensured that their arms traceability was publicly available and easy to check for fraudsters wouldn't you.
After all, the idle rich have nothing better to do with their time/money than keep the ruffians out.
:)
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As I mentioned above, do you which coat of arms it is? Meaning it is the coat of arms of so-and-so Stanley, of such and such. Find who received the original grant to bear this coat of arms, and you may find an online tree that way.
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Find who received the original grant to bear this coat of arms, and you may find an online tree that way.
I guess that was the original question: How do you find out the original grant ..... and I bet that's easier than trying to find out how Joseph ended up with it.
I am feeling I can't go down from the originator, nor up from the last named bloke I know that had it (Joseph).
This is the original arms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Derby
Earl of Derby.
Argent, on a bend azure three buck's heads cabossed or. Motto: Sans changer
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From The General Armoury of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales (available on Google books):
STANLEY (Longstowe Hall, Co. Cambridge; exemplified to Sidney Wentworth, upon his assuming, by royal licence, 1856, the surname of Stanley, in lieu of Wentworth).
Quarterly, 1st and 4th, azure a saltire between two stags heads caboshed bendwise between two bendlets engrailed argent, for STANLEY.
2nd and 3rd, per chevron gules and sable a chevron nebulee between 2 leopards faces in chief and an escallop in base or, for WENTWORTH
That isn't the same as the Stanley arms you posted before?
Which is argent, on a bend azure, three stags heads caboshed or.
You could use The College of Arms to help you (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/identifying-a-coat-of-arms-or-crest), but they are very expensive! ::)
I would recommend a visit to a library, to see what books they hold on Heraldry?
Unfortunately, my local library is closed until January!!
Just to add:
The Stanley arms identified above would be similar to the Scottish flag (azure a saltire argent) on which would be placed 2 stags heads (caboshed means just the head, face on, no neck visible).
The bendlets engrailed are thin diagonal lines, with a kind of scalloped edges?!
Also, Sidney had to change his name to Stanley, and not Wentworth-Stanley!
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From The General Armoury of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales (available on Google books):
STANLEY (Longstowe Hall, Co. Cambridge; exemplified to Sidney Wentworth, upon his assuming, by royal licence, 1856, the surname of Stanley, in lieu of Wentworth).
Quarterly, 1st and 4th, azure a saltire between two stags heads caboshed bendwise between two bendlets engrailed argent, for STANLEY.
2nd and 3rd, per chevron gules and sable a chevron nebulee between 2 leopards faces in chief and an escallop in base or, for WENTWORTH
That isn't the same as the Stanley arms you posted before?
Which is argent, on a bend azure, three stags heads caboshed or.
You could use The College of Arms to help you (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/services/identifying-a-coat-of-arms-or-crest), but they are very expensive! ::)
I would recommend a visit to a library, to see what books they hold on Heraldry?
Unfortunately, my local library is closed until January!!
Just to add:
The Stanley arms identified above would be similar to the Scottish flag (azure a saltire argent) on which would be placed 2 stags heads (caboshed means just the head, face on, no neck visible).
The bendlets engrailed are thin diagonal lines, with a kind of scalloped edges?!
Also, Sidney had to change his name to Stanley, and not Wentworth-Stanley!
Cheers. I hadn't spotted they're different arms. I'm trying to follow the Stanley arms that Sidney Wentworth was using from his great-uncle Joseph in 1856, who got it from his father Joseph (1728-1789)
Yes, Sidney had to change it to Stanley, but wouldn't drop his Wentworth, so ended up using Wentworth everywhere too.
It looks like this will go on the back burner until I've a fresh bucket of urgency and energy :)
It's a long job .... not a quick look up.
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It is strange there isn't a readily available tree for Joseph. There doesn't seem to have been any question of him not having the right to bear those arms, so he must have either been able to prove his descent, or the College already had a descent in their records.
I know they don't go as far as the 1700's, but a search of Nottinghamshire's Visitations might prove worthwhile; even surrounding counties. It is not as time consuming as it sounds, and most if not all Visitations can be found at internetarchive.org.
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There is a resemblance to the Stanley (Earls of Derby) coat of arms, but distinctly different?!
The colours are reversed; there's a saltire rather than a bend; 2 stag's heads rather than 3.
Maybe the older Joseph was granted the arms?
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There is a resemblance to the Stanley (Earls of Derby) coat of arms, but distinctly different?!
The colours are reversed; there's a saltire rather than a bend; 2 stag's heads rather than 3.
Maybe the older Joseph was granted the arms?
That might explain why there are no antecedents for Joseph online.
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Page 143 of the Nottinghamshire Visitations 1569 and 1614: "Quarterly, 1 and 4, on a bend 3 bucks' heads caboshed; 2 and 3, three cross crosslets fitched and a chief."
Sir Thomas Stanley of the Pipe Knt.
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Another thought occurred to me. Have you looked at the will of Joseph, and is there a will for your ancestor Samuel? These could prove informative, especially if they name other relatives, or properties.
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And finally for today (my time), here's a bit of reading for you.
http://tinyurl.com/j8dlazc
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Joseph's obituary appeared in the Cambridge Chronicle and Journal, Sat 10 May 1856 under the heading "An Eccentric Character" - helps explain where the money came from.
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Apologies for my tardiness in responding. It appears that Xmas then occurred in my life and I was distracted by shiny things and wrapping paper + eating lots of crisps.
Lots of great ideas there.
I've not read anybody's will. It's an "investment too far" as I've not yet found/proven a link between Joseph & his family to mine, except a coincidence of name/location in a small area (1 mile).