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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: James18 on Sunday 20 December 15 22:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
This is very likely to be in vain, but I am nonetheless trying to find the memorial medallions for two of my grandfather's brothers who died in the First World War. These are also known as death pennies or dead men's pennies. There is an article here, which also provides a photograph of one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Plaque_(medallion)
The names in question are:
John Bernard Eighteen (died 25/06/1917)
Henry Thomas Eighteen (died 24/11/1916)
I'm not interested in replicas or custom-made designs, I am simply trying to find out if - by some miracle - one or both of them are in a box in someone's attic or something.
Thank you,
James
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Have you checked with absolutely everyone in the family? If no one still has them they might have a story about what happened to them. (my father's military badges, etc. were given to my mother's nephew rather than any of us children)
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Most of those who are still alive and likely to have got hold of them, yes, although I might fire off some more e-mails in the week. A second cousin of mine has been searching for them for some time, and he's checked eBay and whatnot, but obviously has had no success as of yet.
The old family home was demolished when much of the Newtown area of Reading was renovated in the 70s, and sadly it seems that not everything has survived that particular episode. I do know of several heirlooms still in the family, but at present the two medallions are unaccounted for -- or at least, if someone does have them, they're either unaware of it or have not told anyone.
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Hi James18, bit of a long shot but have you tried this Facebook group?
"British War Medals & Badges For Sale".
It could be worth having a look at them and perhaps posting on it.
Best of luck with your quest.
Frank.
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Thank you very much, Frank. I checked the group and searched for the surname, but got no results. It was always a long shot, but certainly a very good idea!
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Hi James do you know for certain they had them, i dont know if they worked in the same way as the war medals but a lot of people never claimed the medals,my son -inlaw had been trying for years to see where his Great Uncles Medals had gone ,only for me to discover that his medals had never been claimed by his sister when he was killed so dont know if the Death Penny was the same.
Colin.
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Memorial Plaques were sent to the last known address of the soldier's next of kin. If they were returned by the GPO they were kept for an while and then melted down. No records of the issuing of memorial plaques have survived.
You should start with the relatives living at the home of the soldier's NoK (or nearby) when they died. Or with the informant on the death certificate of the NoK. If the NoK had not gifted them to a relative, it was usually a case of who got to the house first!
Only officers had to claim their medals. Other ranks' medals were automatically sent to the last known address of their NoK except when the soldier had written a will leaving his effects to someone other than his NoK. The return of medals was covered by Kings Regulations. If they were returned they were kept for ten years before being melted down. If a medal was returned to the medal office the fact was recorded on the medal index card.
Ken
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So Ken when it states Medals not claimed why would it say that if he was not an officer, i have seen cards saying medals returned, but his says medals not claimed.
Colin.
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Without his name, rank and regiment I cannot comment
Ken
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KEN he was George W Fernie, Able Seaman Howe Batt, Clyde /z6019. Buried in Troon Cemetery.His records are at Air Fleet Arms. He was hit by a rifle grenade in France. He was brought back to a Hospital in England cant remember name but it is on records ,he was recovering well in hospital and they decided to operate on his right hand ,but when he was given the Anesthetic it turned out he was allergic to it and he died in the operating theatre.
Colin.
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Hi Colin
So he was RN. I do not know enough about RN WW1 medals to say if they had an index card system like the army. The original National Archives medal rolls which gives B&W cards for six men at a time is supposed to include RND soldiers. But he is not listed. The coloured cards on Ancestry do not. But maybe someone with Ancestry can check that.
The army use the card to summarize the movement of the medals and includes details if the GPO failed to deliver. So you need to find his medal card.
If you do not get help on here I would ask on the Great War Forum if there is another source for RND cards. Or of any other examples of RND soldiers dying in the UK and not getting their medals.
I see that his NoK was his sister. Maybe she did not know that he was entitled. It would have been four years after her brother's death when the medals were sent out. If the navy sent them to her last known address and they were returned, she maybe did not know she had ten years to claim. Was she still at the same address in 1920? I see she was single while he served.
btw...Findmypast have him listed under "died at Sea". They have another transcription - http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2frnd%2f2980 - that says he died in a Nottingham military hospital.
Ken
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Hi Ken, the information that we got regarding the medals never having being claimed was from the Great War Forum, I was gobsmacked when my wife who is a member on the GWF told me it stated they were never claimed or posted out, if you are a member on there go to the Royal Navy section look for the post Howe Batt posted by Mysie i think the post was around Nov 13th and all the information is there.Nottingham hospital is what it says, but he was in there for a while before his fatal operation. There was another G Fernie who is on the Troon Memorial but no relation and he is not buried in Troon.It appears George W Fernie was very well known not only in Troon Golf Club as a Golf Club Maker but he was well known at other golf clubs due to the Open Golf Tournament.
Colin.
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Sorry i will need to check with son -inlaw regarding if she ever married ,or whether she moved house
Colin.
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Can I ask where you chaps are looking up these names, for the relevant information?
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Hi regarding George W Fernie , my wife posted on the Great War Forum and kind members looked up the various sites that have access to records . I took out a months subscription to Forces Records and it gives George's Hospital records and service record details on them.
Colin.
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James,
According the the "Register of Soldiers Effects" everything was signed for by their Parents, In all likelihood they would have received any medals or gratuities that were due!?
David
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Hi David, thanks for that. Where can I view this register? Just curious where you read that. They probably did get the medals, it's just a case of what happened to them between then and now.
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I don't think there is a register for the Bad Pennies, I got that information from the "Registers of Soldiers Effects" on a well known family history website (A******y).
Have you tried posting a request on the "British Medal Forum" to see if anybody there can help?
http://www.britishmedalforum.com/
David
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Ah yes, I do have those as attached sources on my online tree.
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Ken,
My great-uncles names, numbers and regiments are mentioned here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=283040.msg5834585#msg5834585
Henry Thomas and John Bernard Eighteen - they were brothers.
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Hi James I too was trying to find one of these as my my Dads brother lost his life in the Battle of Jutland. I saw the real medallion on a trip to the western front in a museum . I never knew about this medallion at all the real one is the size of a dinner plate and I certainly don't think you will ever get one as the value of having this people would not part with it. I went for a replica and got my uncles name engraved on it and have it framed along with medals ..again replicas as family would never say who had the real ones but it is only I that know they are not the real thing people that come and see them hanging on the wall do not know nor do they care , and always admired . so I would not be too upset to have replicas if you can not get the real thing . I am very happy with what I have . I have mixed some real medals with replicas and even I can not tell the difference when they are all together . Don't let your pride stand in the way of having replicas its better then having none ..
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Quite a bit smaller than a dinner plate ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Plaque_%28medallion%29
They do come up for sale all the time but if you want a particular one then chances are probably very slim on locating that one for sale.