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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: rainy on Monday 28 December 15 09:02 GMT (UK)
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Trying to help a lay find her missing family.
Alfred Wells b abt 1887 Edinburgh.
Married Catherine Duncan in Edinburgh.
Catherine dies.
Alfred arrives in New Zealand so I have been told with his father in-law about 1823.
Alfred dies 1825 leaving small children.
Any help or suggestions very welcome.
Thank you.
rainy
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On the face of it, Alfred died about 60 years before he was born :)
I assume you mean born 1887, went to NZ 1923, died after 1925, as there were few settlers in NZ until after about 1840.
Go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, register and invest in 30 credits at a cost rather less than the cost of ordering one NZ birth, marriage or death certificate.
Use one of the credits to search for the marriage of Alfred Wells to Catherine Duncan, and 5 more to download a digital image of the marriage certificate. This will tell you the full names of both Alfred's and Catherine's parents, including their mothers' maiden names.
Use another credit to find Catherine's death certificate. She will be indexed under both her married and her maiden surname so she will be easy to find. Then use another 5 to download the image of that certificate too.
You now know the full names of both sets of parents. Use another 12 credits to find (assuming that they were married in Scotland) and download the images of the marriage certificates of both sets of parents, and you will have their ages (and therefore approximate dates of birth) and the full names of all the grandparents of both Alfred and Catherine.
And you'll still have enough credits left to look up one more document, for example an earlier marriage (if the couple married aft 1 January 1855), or the death of Catherine's mother.
I see from the New Zealand death indexes (at https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/ ) that Alfred Wells, aged 38, died in New Zealand in 1925. Have you got his death certificate?
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Sorry for the mistakes. Look how I spelt 'lady' as well oh dear. ::)
Thank you that is very helpful.
Yes Kitty has sent me the death certificate of her grandfather Alfred Wells.
But knows very little else re WELLS and DUNCAN families.
Of course lots with those names, so I just seemed to be getting nowhere.
Thank you, will look at Scotland's people for her and see how I get on.
I did find a 1891 and 1901 census for WELLS family, if it is the correct family.
Father of Alfred Wells is George Wells and mother Annie McKenzie .
Taken above from death certificate.
Yes they arrived in NZ about 1923 as death certificate says in NZ 2 years.
Thank you.
rainy
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Of course lots with those names, so I just seemed to be getting nowhere.
Thank you, will look at Scotland's people for her and see how I get on.
Good. Yes, it is always more of a challenge when the names are common ones. Let us know when you have more questions. Happy hunting!
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Hi all ,
SP has a 1916 marriage for an Alfred Wells / Catherine Duncan , St Giles , Midlothian.
Also a death for a Catherine Wells(other surname Duncan) 1923 Leith , Midlothian , born c1892.
ev
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Thank you Forfarian and Ev for your replies.
Appreciate your help very much.
Kitty has a photo of an old man Willie Duncan, (which she thinks if story correct) is Catherine Duncan's father.
The photo also has two small boys George and Alf Wells who were son's of Alfred and Catherine Wells.
When grandfather Duncan dies they get sent to an Orphanage, this happened in NZ.
The boys were born in Scotland as well.
I think there were 3 boys???
As she says her father who was John Wells ran away he was 13 years.
Death certificate says Issue Male 5 years and Female 3 years.
So think to try and find children's births now and see exactly what family is.
Thanks for the help much appreciated.
rainy
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There is an Alf(born c1920) and Geo(b. c1921) Wells going to Auckland NewZealand in 1924.
(Find my Past).
ev
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:)Thank you Ev.
That is a great help.
Wonder who they travelled out to NZ with.
Perhaps another family member of the Duncan family??
Will look at Find My Past and see if can see another name that might connect.
They went to Denniston, which was under ground coal mining area.
I often think those that lived there when they did all needed a medal. A barren area.
Many thanks.
rainy
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There is an Alf(born c1920) and Geo(b. c1921) Wells going to Auckland NewZealand in 1924.
(Find my Past).
ev
Following on from Ev post
Departure date from Southampton 7 November 1924 going to Auckland Ship Pakeha
Wm Duncan age 62 painter
Joan Duncan 17 domestic
John Duncan 12 scholar
Reg Minto age 7
Alf Wells 4
Geo Wells 3
Address came from 19, Fowley Terrace Edinburgh
Rosie
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Thank you Rosie, that answers who they came with. :)
Their father Alfred Wells came on the ship Rotorua sailing 2nd August. 1923.
Has him down as a Dairyman of Edinburgh. If I have the right man.
Made me wonder as was going to work in coal mine at Denniston.
Just found 1881, 1891 1901 census for Duncan family.
Now another question did Margaret Duncan come to NZ?
Or had she passed away? Or came later?
Always more questions to answer after finding some answers.
I do appreciate all the help for Kitty from you all.
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Hi
1901 census has William Duncan living in Musselburgh, a house painter. ( Musselburgh is just outside Edinburgh)
William 40 b Edinburgh
Maggie 40 b Wishaw
George 16 b Partick
Maggie 15 b Wilsonstown
William 12 b Edinburgh
Catherine 9 b Edinburgh
Ginnia 7 b Musselburgh
Paul S 2 B Musselburgh
There is a detailed WW1 Pension record for Paul Smith Duncan of Fowler Terrace, Edinburgh which would be worth looking at. Catherine Duncan was 23 when she married Alfred Wells in 1916 - her address is given as 19 Fowler Terrace.
I think that it is Catherine's father William and family shown on the shipping record . Also on the record is Paul Duncan age 25.
William
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Thanks William.
The family i found in 1901 and 1891 has William Duncan as a Coalminer.
I might not have correct family.
They are at 10 Church Street, Lasswade, Midlothian in 1901
They are at High Street Lasswade, Midlothian in 1891.
They are at Dwelling Shop Lasswade, Midlothian in 1881.
(I am interested in Musselburgh as one of my families lived there in Pinkie Street but getting off family I am chasing.)
Think may have a hard job deciding which William Duncan as so many to look at deaths for.
thanks William please say if I am following wrong family line in census I have looked at.
Thanks.
rainy
Have found in www.paperspast a death notice 28 November 1925 page 19.
Does say 3 children.
So if I can find a death year for William Duncan , then take 13 years from that , will give us birth date of John Wells.
Thanks.
rainy
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Hi no mention on Margaret Duncan on the list the army record for Paul Smith Duncan lists the same address Fowler Terrace Edinburgh ..He can be found on the Electoral Roll records and ww11 Ballot Records 1942 in Blenheim N Z ...You should maybe look for a death for Margaret Duncan on S P
Rosie
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The census that Millie has posted is the same one as I found which I would say would be the correct family ..You could maybe look the family up in the 1911 census to see if Margaret is still living
Rosie
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Thanks for replies, as so easy to follow wrong lines.
I may have just found them?? Not sure yet
Have William Duncan and a Margaret Duncan dying down South in NZ.
Need to check cemetery records in a minute.
He is a coal miner. Then will try and find the Probate on family search to check as well.
I should be snoring, but this is to interesting to stop.
Many thanks for all the help.
rainy
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Thanks for replies, as so easy to follow wrong lines.
I may have just found them?? Not sure yet
Have William Duncan and a Margaret Duncan dying down South in NZ.
Need to check cemetery records in a minute.
He is a coal miner. Then will try and find the Probate on family search to check as well.
I should be snoring, but this is to interesting to stop.
Many thanks for all the help.
rainy
Yes I did see that also ? But the record for immigration does not list Margaret ..There is a Margaret Duncan death in Midlothian Edinburgh 1917-1918 which could be a possible if you put in a birth year of 1861-1863 other name Donaldson as I think that was the wife's name ..Yes you should be sleeping getting late
Rosie
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Going by the occupation of William Duncan there is a William Duncan in Alabama Road Blenheim District Wairau Marlborough in 1928 painter
Death record in the same area William Duncan 1933 ?
Rosie
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Sorry Rosie confusing you.
John WELLS is Kitty's father and that would make the three children they said when the father Alfred Wells died.
Need to find him on a shipping list as well later.
Well dont think the two deaths I had found a correct people when checking Probates on family search.
Thats the beauty of Probates sometimes says where they are born etc.
But must head to bed its nearly 3.oo o'clock in the morning here.
Thank you will come back to this tomorrow night NZ time.
Thank you all, you are wonderful.
She is going to be so pleased with what we have found for her.
This isn't a relative of mine, just helping Kitty.
Thanks
rainy :) :) :)
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Hi
Margaret died 28 Feb 1918 " At Chalmers Hospital on 28th ult Margaret Donaldson, beloved wife of William Duncan, painter 48 Polwarth Crescent, 57 , deeply mourned. Funeral private from 19 Fowler Terrace on Monday 3 pm to Inveresk Churchyard, Musselburgh".
Possible death of William Duncan April 1933 Blenheim, Marlborough, New Zealand.
1881 census suggests that William was a boarder in Renfrew and 1891 living in Cumberland Street Edinburgh with wife Maggie and children Alexander A 12 B Kilsyth, George, Maggie and William.
Given that William was unmarried in 1881 this does pose questions about son Alexander.
William
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Thank you William, you have brought that all together nicely.
So I followed wrong line.
Will copy and print what you found.
Will check Marlborough cemetery database out as well and see what it has re Wiilliam Duncan.
Just had to read your new message Rosie.
Thats very possible Margaret Duncan death.
That would also account for no one to look after boys after Grand dad Duncan dies.
Will leave for now. But will certainly be back tomorrow night.
Bless you all, just wonderful with your researching on this family.
Thanks
rainy
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Rainy
A couple of articles in the Edinburgh Evening News
27th Oct 1915 " Intimation has been received by Mrs Orr 1 Gibson Terrace that her brothers Private William Wells 1ST Cameron Highlanders and Private George Wells 12th Royal Scots have ben killed in action.A third brother Private A Wells 1ST Royal Scots is at present home wounded".
25th Oct 1915 " Private George Wells 12th Royal Scots, who has been killed in action, joined the Army at the commencement of war, prior to which he was in the employment of Messrs Mc Call and co of Abbeyhill. His sister Mrs Charles Orr resides at 1 Gibson Terrace, Edinburgh. It is a melancholy fact that his brother Private Wm Wells was killed five days previously. A third brother Private Alfred Wells 1st Royal Scots is at present home wounded".
I think that George had previously joined the militia in 1904. His service record is on FindMyPast and is worth locating.
William
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Had some credits and looked at marriage of William Duncan and Margaret Donaldson - married 27/12/1883 Glasgow - he 22, House Painter (Journeyman), son of George Duncan, Artist and Catherine nee Turcan. She also 22, dau. of James Donaldson, Baker and Margaret nee Dunsmore.
According to census George Duncan bc.1819 Forfar, Angus - although found his baptism on SP it would suggest his parents weren't married (and there doesn't seem to be any other baptisms with these 2 as parents).
George Duncan b.2/7/1818 bp.4/8/1818 Forfar, Angus - natural child of William Duncan and Janet Rattray (other entries referred to females as 'spouse'). In Scotland seems to be a bit of an anomaly that illegitimate children have their father's surname even though parents never married. Clearly, the baptism would suggest that William Duncan acknowledged said child.
In census records George is always described as Painter, Portrait Painter or Artist.
Annette
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A big thank you to you all.
William and Annette have found some more family history of this DUNCAN family.
You are going to make Kitty a very happy lady.
After just having a few names, to now a family building for her.
She had been told Alfred was gassed in the 1st WW. So that would account for his being at home.
Can one get WW1 personnel records from the UK?
We can in NZ download their WW1 army records at no cost.
Also mentions a sister Mrs Orr.
I am so pleased I asked for help for her.
I only have snail mail contact with Kitty, so waiting till i bring everything together to make a folder for her.
You are all amazing, thank you so much.
thanks.
rainy
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Hi Rainy
Only some WW1 records survive as a lot were destroyed by bombing during WW2. The only records I can see for the Wells brothers are the death of George 28 Sep 1915 and of William 23 Oct 1914. I note that Williams death is given as 1914 not 1915 .
I did find a record for a William McKenzie Wells in the Leeds Police Records where dob is given as 5th March 1882 in Newington Edinburgh Trade porter. Says had previously served 8 years in Cam Highlanders and 6 months with North British Railway. Appointed 2nd class constable 28 Jan 1910. Promoted to first class 27 Jan 1911. Resigned April 6th 1911.
Re Mrs Orr there is a marriage in 1908 between Charles Peter Orr and Jessie Wells in St George, Edinburgh .
I cannot quote the 1911 census but suggest that you search for William McKenzie Wells in the 1911 English census.
William
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:) :)Thank you William, its very helpful all what you have found.
The newspaper article gives one more of William Wells working life.
I do try to have more than just names and dates if I can with my research.
I was not able to find the WELLS brothers war records on Find My Past.
Am I missing something when I am looking???
Or do I need to go to UK Archives for that info?
Will look for that marriage on freebmd.uk
On the census of 1891 and 1901 no Jessie.
But a Jannet and a Annie J. So wonder if Jessie is one of those names?
will also look for 1911 census.
Thank you for your help.
Appreciated it very much.
rainy
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Hi
Re the WW1 records the only records I found were on ancy. in a collection called Casualties of the First World War. (It is an index). I don't think that it is on FindMyPast. George Wells earlier service record is in British Army Service Records 1760 - 1915 and is on FindMyPast and he is showing as born 1885 in St Cuthbert's Edinburgh.
Re Jessie it is a pet name for Janet (or Jane, Jean, Jessica). A lovely site to look at is called Whats in a Name - it has lots about Scottish pet names and variations of first names ( I spent ages trying to find my grannie in the 1911 census and used a lot of credits until I realised that she was recorded as Maggie not Margaret!) The only place where you will find Jessie's marriage is Scotland's People.
Thinking about Scottish naming patterns I wondered if Annie McKenzies father was William McKenzie and came across a marriage 3 June 1881 in Gateshead of Annie McKenzie 24 to George Wells 30 (her father William, his George). The age of George is a bit out but that can often happen on marriage records! This may be coincidence but since I cannot see a marriage for them on Scotland's People it may be worth following up. ( There is also an Ann McKenzie in the 1861 census b 1857 Edinburgh with parents William and Jessie).
William
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www1 Medal Roll Cards William Wells Queens own Cameron Highlanders regiment number 5861 death 23/10/1914
A Wells applies for 1914 star on behalf of his brother Pte W Wells
U K Army Registers of Soldiers Effects
William Wells Cameron Highlanders Pte 5861 Killed in action
To whom authorised Sister Mrs Eliza Kennedy Sis Alexanderina
Sister in Law Mrs A Wells crossed out Sis in Law Catherine T Wells
Bro Alfred
Rosie
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There is also this one for George Wells Register of Soldiers Effects
George Wells 12th Batt R Scots Pte 14797
Sis Annie ,Sis Jessie Sis Eliza
Sis Annie J Peat
Death date 28 September 1915
Rosie
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Rainy you can also try www.cwgc org/find war dead where you can download certificate
Rosie :)
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Had some credits on SP and found the death of Annie Wells. I think the following shows that George Wells and Annie McKenzie did marry in Gateshead.
Annie Wells died 16 Nov 1904 in the Infirmary Edinburgh of pneumonia. Usual address 31 Watson Crescent. Parents William McKenzie printer (deceased) and Janet Gouldie prev Mackenzie ms Nisbet. Informant George Wells, widower, 31 Watson crescent.
1861 Census Reikies Court 65 Nicolson Street Edinburgh
William Mckenzie 33 b Edinburgh printer, Jessie McKenzie 30 b Musselburgh, Ann McKenzie 4, Jessie Mckenzie 3 Robert McKenzie 2 mo
Births Anne McKenzie 23 July 1856, Jessie 12 Feb 1858, Robert Nisbet McKenzie 9 Jun 1860 Parents William McKenzie and Jessie Nisbet Edinburgh Parish.
1871 England Census 121 Clavering Place Newcastle upon Tyne
Janet McKenzie 40 widow domestic servant, Ann McKenzie 14, Jessie 13, Robert N 10 (and 2 lodgers)
1873 marriage Newcastle Thomas Gowdy and Jessie McKenzie jul - sep.
1881 census 12 Cooper Street, Gateshead
Janet Gowdy 50 mar bookbinder's wife, Jessie McKenzie 23 Bookfolder and sewer, Robert McKenzie 20 son bookbinder
1890 death Robert Nesbitt McKenzie Oct- dec 1890 Gateshead
1891 census 70 Frank Terrace Gateshead
Jessie McKenzie 32 foreman booksewer, Janet Gowdy mar 60 housekeeper (2 boarders)
1901 census 71 Frank Street Gateshead
Jessie McKenzie 43 Bookfolder and binder, Janet Gowdy mar 70 housekeeper (1 boarder)
Again cannot quote 1911 census but think it proves the connection and so well worth finding.
Probate calendar 1923
Janet Gowdy of 41 Sunderland Road Gateshead widow died 14 Feb 1923. Probate Durham 5 March to Jessie McKenzie spinster and John Allan baker. Effects £106 - 1s.
Now going to try to work out what happened to Thomas Gowdy( who has been noticeable by his absence!) but first a cup of tea.http://cdn.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/christmas/smiley.gif :)
William
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Saying Thank you seems not enough, but I am amazed at what you have found for the WELLS/DUNCAN family.
Will print all that off and work from that later.
May not be today as visitor for dinner and the evening.
There is so much you have found.
Yes did wonder if on ancestry.
Been wondering whether to get it again as does have info other sites do not have.
I am sure that cup of tea was well deserved and refreshing.
Thank you William and Rosie for today info.
I did find Catherine Duncan's baptism. She is Catherine Turcan Duncan born 1891.
So her middle name will be from Catherine Turcan who marries George Duncan in 12 May 1845 Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland.
I need a bit of refining before I use Scotlands People again, as last time wasted some of my credits.
But it was my mistakes that used up the credits.
The names of the sisters tie in with the names on the census I found for that family.
My own family history has McKenzie in Scotland but not in Midlothian.
Thank you Rosie I had forgotten to use www.cwgc.
As yet have not done a good search on www.paperspast either to see if I can get any info.
I now think have the answer for one of Kitty photo's with these boys George and Albert Wells.
There is Granny Meek. Now I knew the MEEK family in my town were Scottish. Have found a DONALDSON is the connection. So the Granny would have been related to these little boys.
Does make one realize what life changes those boys had.
I need to ask Kitty why John Wells her father isn't in photos.
Perhaps she just doesn't have any???
All in time will come together brilliantly.
I really am amazed. Thank you all.
rainy
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Hi rainy,
This may be of interest to you......
British Newspaper Archive 1 month subscription for just £1 when you follow this link and enter the discount code: HAPPYNY2016
http://bit.ly/1ShQSm0
You need to Register "Free" First
Annie
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Alfred Wells was born 28/1/1886 Edinburgh, son of George Wells, Mason and Annie Mckenzie (as already confirmed).
George and Annie married 3/6/1881 Gateshead - he son of a George and she dau. of a William (again, he has already been confirmed).
George died 12/10/1907 aged 62 in the Poorhouse, Craiglockhall, usual residence 31 Watson Crescent, Edinburgh - widower of Ann McKenzie. He died of Hemiplegia (as spelt on certificate) and the informant was James H. Smith, Ast. Governor). His parents are given as George Wells, Cooper (deceased) and Jane, nee Hall (deceased). His parents married 9/8/1836 Lochmaben, Dumfriesshire and he himself was bc.1845 Lochmaben.
Annette
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The location of the poorhouse was in Craiglockhart - it is now the site of some quite upmarket housing. I grew up in the Craiglockhart area of Edinburgh and can remember just how forbidding the old workhouse buildings were. George may have been there as a medical patient and not as a pauper.
Thomas Gowdy is proving somewhat elusive. The only possible sightings I have are (and this is based on Janet Gowdy recording herself as a bookbinder's wife) :
1871 Census York 5 Kings Square as a boarder unmarried age 23 bookbinder born Belfast transcribed as Thos Goudy
1891Census York 21 Margaret Street as a boarder married age 40 bookbinder born Belfast transcribed as Thomas Gowdy (the marks on the page does make the marriage condition hard to be sure)
1901 census Salford 52 showing as widower age 52 bookbinder born Ireland.
Marriage of William McKenzie and Janet Nisbet Edinburgh Parish 27 Jun 1852. Her father named as Robert Nisbet.
William
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Thank you all for your research, bringing many new bits of information for this family.
Now that is interesting re newspaper sub. I guess it has to be tomorrow before the New year to get it at that price. And of course to remember to untick renewal. Thank you for that advice.
I think Poorhouses and any of those sort of Institutions would make us all feel very scared.
Yet at that time guess there was no alternative for the people who needed help.
We sure are very fortunate today, how we are treated.
Haven't had time today to work on this research, but hopefully tomorrow will get some done.
You are really brilliant and I am so blessed to have you all working on these families.
Telling my visitors about it today etc, makes me wonder how amazed Kitty is going to be very soon when I post a folder of it all to her.
Thank you all very much.
rainy.
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Yes did wonder if on ancestry.
Been wondering whether to get it again as does have info other sites do not have.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Thank you Forfarian.
Very good advice for all researchers.
I just need to use Scotlands People properly and not waste credits.
Many thanks.
rainy
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Hello
I am from New Zealand and are related to Alfred Wells and the Duncan family from Edinburgh Scotland.
Please contact me if you have information and I will happily pass on any info I have.
Regards Kim
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Hello Kim. I am not related to these families.
But I researched for Kitty whose maiden name was Wells.
She was thrilled what I did find for her and it included through 'google' a photo of her Uncle in the North Island of New Zealand.
I also live in New Zealand and if I can help you will do so.
OR put you in touch with Kitty.
Her father was John Wells who had two brothers, from memory George and Alfred I think.
Not sure whether I kept any of research I did for Kitty.
But if you read the post I received, you will pick up a lot of info as well.
The Donaldson family from Scotland also came into it.
Please ask any questions will help if I can.
Thanks
rainy
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Hi Rainy
Thanks for the reply.
If you could put me in touch with Kitty that would be great though I don't know much about the Wells family my search is more the Duncan family. William Duncan that came to NZ was my GG Grandfather. I have some gaps once William and some of his children and 2 Wells grandchildren.
I saw in a post Kitty may have a photo of William I don't have any photos so keen to know about that.
If you can find any info you did for Kitty especially NZ based I would be keen to hear what you found.
Regards Kim ( I am away for 2 weeks and cant access internet)
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Hi Kim. I only did snail mail to Kitty or she rang me.
so could I have your email address to pass on to Kitty when I write to her.
I will wait and see what you get from Kitty, then I will see if I can help with any gaps.
Thank you.
rainy
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Hi
Am I allowed to post my email address on here?
Regards Kim
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Hi Kim,
Yes, you cannot post your email address under RootsChat guidelines. However, you can pass it using the Personal Message (PM) system. Under Rainy's name, you will see a small icon like a piece of paper with 3 little lines. Press on that with your pointer (arrow) and it will open up a personal message, you can put your email in here securely. Unfortunately you cannot attach photos etc to the PM, but you can do that when you connect with email.
Tom