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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Rutland => Topic started by: C_W on Thursday 31 December 15 15:21 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have found a birth on Ancestry for a possible match for my tree.
Its for a Raymond H A Adam
Born Oct - Dec 1914
Mothers Name: Nutt
Ref: Oakham Vol 7a Page 564
That's fine, I will probably order that certificate.
However on that page image there is another (two lines down from the first) under the Surname Adam. Same date Oct - Dec 1914.
Its for a (Male). Mothers name: Nutt Ref: Oakham Vol 7a Page 564
Does anyone know how I can find out if that is relating to the same birth, or another birth (a baby who died maybe) to either the same or another mother - without having to order two certificates.
Thank you for any help anyone could offer.
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I see the same Adam births for 1914 but mother's maiden name is "Hutt"....looks like it could be twins.
Freebmd:
ADAM Raymond H A Hutt Oakham 7a 564 Scan available - click to view
ADAM Yvonne M Pointin Wirral 8a 780 Scan available - click to view
ADAM Male Hutt Oakham 7a 564
If you send for Raymond's Birth Cert. it will say on it if he was one of twins.
Carol
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I've just looked at the image Carol and found that both should be NUTT- I have advised Free BMD.
Twins was my first thought too.But could it be that Raymond wasn't given a christian name at first,so he was registered as Male and later another entry was sent to the GRO with the name Raymond?
Carol
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This could be the marriage.
Marriages Sep 1912
Adam Benjamin A to Nutt in Windsor 2c 1083
Nutt Ida M to Adam in Windsor 2c 1083
There is no Adam death for a new baby in Oakham at the right time.
Right area for dad Benjamin's death too?
Deaths Sep 1935
Adam Benjamin A age 85 Oakham 7a 319
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I didn't find a male death in Oakham for that time period on Freebmd.
Carol
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Hello
Thanks for your help. I have ordered the birth certificate for Raymond H A Adam, which I hope will prove that his mother was Ida Nutt. She married Benjamin Adam.
Ida was one of three daughters born to Alfred Young Nutt (and Mary George), and for several years now i have tried to find out if he had any grandchildren. Although all three daughters married, I have been unable to trace any children till now. I will eagerly await the certificate.
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IDA Mary Adam died on 28th Jan 1954-and left a will.
Probate says...Ida Mary Adam of the Cottage Oakham Rutlandshire,widow,died on 28th Jan 1954 at the Royal Infirmary Leicester. Probate Leicester 13th April to Barclays Bank Ltd and Raymond Hugh Addington ADAM of no occupation.
Effects £ 10121 17s 2d
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Benjamin Addington Adam died in 1935 and also left a will.
Benjamin Addington Adam of the Cottage Oakham Rutlandshire died 12th Aug 1935,probate London 23rd Sept to Cecil Brodrick solicitor,Arthur Cecil Pope retired bank manager and the Rev Henry Thomas Malaher clerk.
Effects £17342 2s 7d
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I know that The Cottage, Oakham was Ida & Benjamin's address, so its looking hopeful.
Its probably taken me so long to track down any children because the mother was indexed as HUTT.
Thanks for your help everyone.
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Raymond appears in 1948 at a Porchester Sq London adress with an Ann G Adam.
This appears to be their marriage,I think she's been married before.
Marriages Jun 1948
Adam Raymond H A to Lappington Paddington 5d 411
Adam Raymond H A to Dennis Paddington 5d 411
Dennis Anne G to Adam Paddington 5d 411
Sappington Anne G to Adam Paddington 5d 411
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I have today received the birth certificate for Raymond Hugh Addington Adam. He was born 30 September 1914 at The Cottage, Oakham. Mother Ida Mary Nutt. Father Benjamin Addington Adam. Indeed it does have a dash where 'name if any' and his name is in the box 'name entered after registration'.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
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You might be interested to follow up Ida Mary Nutt, Raymond's mother.
Her father was Alfred Young Nutt (5th May 1847–25th July 1924) who was an English architect and artist, and Surveyor to the Dean and Canons of St George's Chapel, Windsor. Windsor museum has a number of his watercolours, but also a lovely portrait of someone who we think is probably his second daughter Lilian, painted by her Dutch cousin by marriage, Sara Johanna (Jo) Strumphler.
See http://www.artuk.org/artdetective/discussions/discussions/who-is-this-lady-in-a-blue-dress-when-was-this-portrait-painted
A third sister, Maud Evelyn, married Henry Thomas Malaher in 1919 and had a son Richard B.M Malaher, registered in Preston. Notice that Henry was one of the executors of your Benjamin Adam's will, so the Nutt girls clearly stayed close.
The art detectives hope that Adam and Malaher descendants have preserved images of the Nutt sisters to confirm the portrait sitter's identity. If you ever come across any such thing, please get in touch with them through the web address above or with Windsor Museum. Good luck in your own research.
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PS. A further search has found the marriage of Maud Evelyn Nutt on 3rd Aug 1919 at which "Her train was of cream satin, and was borne by her little nephew Master Raymond Adam, of Oakham, who was in sailor costume." Lilian, Mrs Lingeman (the most likely sitter in Windsor's portrait), sang a prayer.
Oh for a full wedding photograph!
Found in The Slough, Eton and Windsor Observer, August 9, 1919 at:
http://www.sopse.org.uk/asset_arena/image/original/sl/ol/sl-ol-slough_observer09081919188704-e-00-000.jpg (See "Pretty Wedding", column 6 of this page.)
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Hello mhfow
Thank you for your links, which I find very interesting, and a little more knowledge to add to my collection!
I have put a post on the ArtDetectives site, but the only info I can offer is that a number of years ago I spent a very interesting day with Norman Oxley (who wrote the book AY NUTT) and the staff of Windsor Museum Store, seeing some of the drawings etc. by AY Nutt that were not on show, due to lack of museum space.
I was shown a photograph that was thought to be Mrs Nutt, her daughters, plus a man and another girl. They were sitting in a garden. I don't know if thats a link you can follow up. (Mind you you may then have three or four girls you are trying to name!!).
Regards
C_W
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Thank you for your reply.
If you were shown the photograph of Mrs Nutt and her daughters, then the Museum may already have the means to corroborate the sitter's identity, unless the girl in question is too young in the photo.
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I think the three daughters would all be in their twenties, and the photo taken early 1900s, so it would all fit.
Do you know if the Museum Store is still there? When I visited they were trying hard to get the museum near the Guildhall, which I know they managed because I saw a photo of the Queen's visit.
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C_W, Windsor Museum is on the case. They have someone in their off-site store today, who has been asked to find the photograph and compare the faces with the portrait. They will get back to the Art detectives when they know something.
If they say "no match", I will ask for an image of it, and if that fails to see yours, if I may?
They are also planning to contact the Dutch RKD - the national art history institute - with a view to having a mini-exhibition of the painting and anything the Dutch can provide about Jo Strumpfler. This is fun!
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Hello mhfow
I wrote to the museum this morning, and have had a reply this afternoon. They sent me copies of the photo's they have, and I have sent the copy of mine to them, which I hope will help them solve the puzzle. I feel happier it going through the museum, with copyright etc.
If I can be of any more help please let me know,
C_W
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Can you personally say from those photos and the Art UK image of the portrait whether one of the girls even slightly resembles the sitter (nearly 20 years older)? If you can tell who is the one with the husband, she is the most likely.
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Hello again,
I would say that it is possible that the painting could be one of the girls, the museum may be able to confirm. I must say that when I was first shown the photo I was told it was "thought" to be Mrs Nutt and daughters.
Over the years I had hoped to find a living relative to the family without success. I did buy some AY Nutt letters to his daughters that came on sale on eBay. They came from South Africa? I think there may have been a Malaher connection in South Africa, but never been able to prove it.
I found the fact that one of the daughters lived on the Isle of Wight interesting. Robert Nutt (my Gt Gt Grandfather ) was a minister on the Island. I think AY Nutt was fond of the Island. He did a lot of work in Whippingham Church, which can be seen to this day.
I suppose being the weekend we won't know the museum's thoughts till Monday!
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Hello C_W
To thank you for your help, I've digitally retouched some problems in the photo you sent. I cannot attach a large enough file here, so I am posting it to the Art detectives site.
M
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Hello C
While looking at the Amsterdam addresses, I thought I'd take a peek at the Nutts too. In that cutting of Maud's wedding, the name "Morcott West" appears. It's the name of their house. I later found the full address ("Morcott West", Sussex Place, Slough), in an article which may be new to you: https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1393963.
I cannot find the house today. The road is centred on SL1 1NH. On old maps (do you need links?) there are a few large properties at the eastern end north side. However the road has been remodelled and there is much new housing, perhaps war damage.
Before I found Morcott West, my first search found a village called Morcott near - guess where - Oakham. So AY Nutt probably named the house in Slough after his childhood home.
M
PS, I suspect the family photo was taken in the grounds of Windsor Castle. Where else would you take your Dutch relatives, if you had access?!
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Hello M
The 1911 census shows AY Nutt, his wife, Ida and Maude living at Garden House, Windsor Castle.
I think the family left when he HAD to retire soon after. His retirement came as a big shock to AY. I think he felt he still had a lot of work left in him! He didn't see it coming with his 65th birthday.
He went on to build the first concrete church in Goldthorpe, plus many other projects like the War Memorial in you post.
I had not seen the article, so thank you for that. But sadly no photo. Maybe someone from Rootchat who lives in Slough could help!
C_W
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http://buckinghamshireremembers.org.uk/memorials/p320.htm
Thanks to a member of Rootschat (rosie99) here is a photo of the above memorial!