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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: CathrynJ on Wednesday 06 January 16 15:57 GMT (UK)
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I am seeking the ancestors of my Grandmother Daphne Marguerite Hamilton.
Here is her birth certificate information:
Grandmother Daphne Marguerite -
Born 20th dec 1911
Location (and residence) 2 Hurlingham House, Blomfield Crescent
Registration district - Paddington
Mother - Marie Marguerite Hamilton formerly Saunders
Father - Reginald Hamilton, Occupation - Flannel Manufacturers Traveller
I have been unable to find the family on any census records at the given address nor any other address.
A cousin of mine recently told me that my Father was Romany. I am trying to verify or otherwise the truth of this. My Grandfather has mother maiden name Fenner, but it seems unlikely looking at the records that they were Romany.
My Grandmother however is something of a mystery, quite dark she looked "Jewish" I always thought and her origins had the air of being concealed.
If anyone know this family, glad of further information to help me solve the mystery.
Thank you.
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
Did Daphne marry in 1933 Colchester :-\
Living Sussex (Uckfield area) in 1939, also there a Marie M Lambert bn c1894
Rosie
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Hi there,
Thanks Rosie for your reply. Yes that is my Gran, I have that marriage listing on my family tree.
Now the Marie M Lambert is interesting. Ancestry.com has shown a link to a private family tree "Lambert" - I have written to the owner but they did not respond.
I will look into that further thank you.
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Marie M Saunders married in that name to Walter Lambert - June qtr 1919.
They appear together on street directories on Ancestry
That marriage should give Maries fathers details
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Ok I will need to look into that in more depth when I have some more time ...
So that if true would suggest Marie M gave birth to Daphne with Reginald the father, but went on to marry someone else 8 years later.
Thank you for your very quick answer, you are clearly doing this alot! I am just learning.
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I would suggest that you look at the 1911 census for a Marie Saunders living in Paddington. We are not allowed to give details of that census.
If I have the right family the mother is in Uckfield area in 1939 and possibly dies in Cannock Staffordshire in 1961
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Hi Rosie,
Thank you, I have found the suggested Marie Saunders, interesting, only 16 or 17, but she lives only 10 minutes walk away from the road listed as the birthplace for Daphne ...
So it could be her, though I can still find no record of the marriage to Reginald Hamilton, Daphne's father.
You mention - daphne Jiggens -
"Living Sussex (Uckfield area) in 1939, also there a Marie M Lambert bn c1894"
I have been searching but cannot find this record, are you able to give a pointer to help?
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It would not surprise me if she was not married to Reginald Hamilton.
The 1939 register is on findmypast and is pay per view. You can 'play' with the search on it without paying and get some good results :) Some records will be shown as 'locked' they are people who are probably still living.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gsp/
I still can't find that family before 1911 though.
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I just saw the Cannock Staffordshire link - that would make sense yes.
My Dad, born 1936, by the 1960's when he married my mom, was living in Staffordshire.
Wow could this be the mystery solved, will keep tracking down to see - thank you very much.
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It is a pleasure. :)
I had noticed Daphne died in Staffordshire ;D I have got to finish for today but maybe someone else can see something I missed.
Rosie
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Posting upadates here to help me keep track!
So I am searching now for Reginald Hamilton the man listed on the birth certificate as Daphne's father with Marie Saunders in 1911. Family lore is that he was Romany.
From the Electoral records of 1910 there is a Reginald Hamilton living at 55 Maddin Ave in Lewisham 1910. Interestingly his next door neighbours are John Saunders / Harriet Sarah Anne Saunders and I wonder if they might be any relation to Marie Saunders?
Reginald Hamilton lives here throughout 1910 till 1928. In 1920 these people are also listed as living with him:
William Hamilton
Charlotte Elfrida Hamilton
Charles William Hamilton
There is a William Hamilton of Deal in 1879 who was married to a Charlotte Hamilton. By 1920 he would have been 42. He is also a known Gypsy family lineage of the Scamp family tree. Could it be possible him and Charlotte, moved in with Reginald Hamilton?
What relation then would Reginald Hamilton have been to him?
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Then finally there is a death of reginald hamilton going back to Dartford in Kent.
Reginald Hamilton
Birth Date:
abt 1885
Date of Registration:
Mar 1927
Age at Death:
42
Registration district:
Dartford
Inferred County:
Kent
Volume:
2a
Page:
1119
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Reginald Hamilton, Occupation - Flannel Manufacturers Traveller -
Have you tried searching census to see where Flannel manufacturers are mainly based. The use of the word 'traveller' could probably mean Travelling salesman rather than Romany. Your Reginald may have come from outside the London area.
My grandmother's sister married someone who they all referred to as a gipsy - he was a brush maker/salesman and ended up with a factory which apparently supplied Woolworths. :) Tracing him back there are no indications his family were Romanies.
Also beware of trees on Ancestry and similar sites, treat them with caution. Always check the information they give yourself. Don't think that because loads of people have the same it is correct, it is one of the problems with the site people just add family because someone else says it's right.
Rosie
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There is a Reginald Alfred Hamilton at 74 Leith Mansions, Paddington in 1910 though no longer there by the census. Maybe it was him :-\
Have you checked any connections with the family living in Hurlingham House when Daphne was born.
The electoral registers have 3 ladies there in 1909
Miss Edith Davis
Miss Florence Davis (later registers show her as Florence Naomi Davis)
Miss Helen Davis
From about 1915 there is just Edith & Florence.
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Scrap the question below, I found the record I think you mean - Ernestine Saunders dies in Cannock in 1961, crikey if it was her she was a good old age! In the pics I have there is one of a very old woman that looks like it was shot in around 50's. Thanks!
Dear Rosie -
You say at one point
If I have the right family the mother is in Uckfield area in 1939 and possibly dies in Cannock Staffordshire in 1961
Sorry to be slow but I assume you mean Marie "Lambert" - Daphnes mom? I am looking on ancstrydotcom and can't find this death recorded, have tried saunder and hamilton as surnames too. Am I missing something ?
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So a wee update:
I decided to go onto findmypast and living in the Uckfield house (12 Walters Cottages) in 1939 does look to be my Gran Daphne, with son Hamilton, and Mother Marie Lambert. Two records are locked, guess they would be Percy Charles, husband of Daphne and my Dad Rex, will see about getting them unlocked perhaps as they are deceased.
Also in Uckfield (4 Green Sq Mount Pleasant*) in 1939 register is as you say Rosie - Anthony P Hamilton b12 Apr 1916 living in the same house as Ernestine Saunders. Anthony P Hamilton occupation is listed as Traveller (another one...). This is too tempting a link - is he the son of Marie also, born a few years after Daphne? So I have ordered his birth certificate ...
Finally in the 1960's an Anthony P Hamilton pops up in Maida Vale, just a few streets away from where Ernestine with children Ernest and Marie, are listed as living in the 1911 census. Living in the same house as Anthony P Hamilton in the 1960's is Jenni, James and JIM Morrison.
The only other ancestor I can remember from my grandmother Daphne is "Uncle Jim" who used to work a smallholding in Kent when I went to visit Granny down there in the early 70's - a coincidence?
Time for bed!
* Also in the same house as you say Rosie is the White Family (it is listed as the "White Household") James L 1890 / Susan 1904 / Charles R 1927. They are Labourer & unpaid domestic as is Ernestine.
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Thank you for the update. It will be interesting to see what information the 1916 birth certificate gives.
When do you think Uncle 'Jim' could have been born - Is he likely to be Jim Morrison or James L White :-\
I do wonder were Ernestine was before 1911 though ;D
There is an Ernestine Lefort that is bugging me though, she had an illegitimate son Ernest Frederick c1890 ::)
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Ha ha funny I am just sitting here now searching that same thing myself.
Looking through births for the year of birth given for Ernestine on the 1939 census, these two caught my eye. The first because the surname Lefort sounds familiar, the second because of the name Marie being the same as the daughters name. They are both the correct registration month (Oct being listed as the birthdate). The birthplace is listed as Pimlico elsewhere.
ErnestineMary Lefort
1864
Oct-Nov-Dec
St George Hanover Square
London
Ernestine Marie
1864
Oct-Nov-Dec
Marylebone
London
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I had just been looking at her myself and had added to my post that she was bugging me ;D
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Interesting illegitimate son of Ernestine Lefort called Ernest as of course Ernestine Saunders in 1911 has son Ernest (aged 19 though).
Looking for the birth registration of Marie, maybe this one? How can I find more info about the parents for a birth registration, is ordering the birth certificate the only way?
Marie Saunders
Registration Year: 1894
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: London City
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 2
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Hi Rosie -
Bit of a major update here.
Finally spoke with my cousin. Our grandparents are as much as a mystery to them as to me - the frequent refrain when questioned being "the past is the past".
However two pieces of info were recalled -
Grannie Jiggens had a brother my cousins knew as "Uncle Lambert" which I guess will be a half brother from marriage between Marie and Walter Lambert.
But most striking was a photo recalled - it was of an older man in early 1900's. Of him Daphne said to my cousin "he is a relation, he lives in france and is an artist".
The father of Ernestine Le Fort is Eugene Le Fort who is a Jeweller (the "artist"?) and Plate polisher, from France.
The Le Fort Family appear 1871 / 81, they disappear off the 1891 census though Ernestine seems to remain as a servant in Hanover Square.
Is it possible that in the gap of the 1901 census, Ernestine is in fact in France with her father?
That we now have confirmation of a french connection - I feel that I could now tentatively put Ernestine Le Fort & Saunders as one in the same, and proceed researching from that assumption.
What do you think Rosie?
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Actually I can find Eugene Lefort now in his 70's in Holloway in 1911, so it doesn't seem that he ever moves back to france.
But it could be that he visits. I recall other black and white pictures that were clearly on the continent, and that if pushed to guess would say they were france, which was why I always had an idea that my Gran originated from the continent.
it could be the family were occasionally travelling to france to see family - hence the picture my cousin described - Eugene in France, rather than living in France? If the picture my cousin enquired about to Granny - it is a man in a white linen suit, has a white beard and it looks hot in the picture!
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The question remains, though, where does Ernestine Le Fort become Ernestine Saunders? Can't for the life of me find that anywhere ....
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Sorry, I have been having internet problems ::)
The only way of finding out what is on a birth certificate is by ordering it. I have in the past ordered one from the GRO and said that I do not know the reference, then you get a different form to complete. It does take longer for it to come as they will do a search.
I think if I was going to try this one all I would enter on the form would be the name of the child approx year of birth and give mothers christian name. If they can't find a birth for a Marie Saunders c1894 with mother Ernestine (I would not give Ernestine a surname) then they should refund the money if they can't find a match.
I am pleased that you have managed to get some more information from your cousins, it certainly sounds promising.
In 1891 Eugene is in Bishopsgate at 9 Crosby Square with wife Hannah and children Julia, George & Albert. Also a visitor Sarah Scott.
Ref RG12 piece 241 folio 35 page 7
In 1901 there is just Eugene and wife Hannah living Hammersmith
RG13 piece 50 folio 168 page 15
I think the Le fort family are certainly worth investigating further.
If Ernestine Saunders is previously Le Fort you may never find a change of name.
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Dear Rosie,
Yes it does seem a good potential match that Ernestine is of the Le Forts - both on the Location, and occupation. My cousins are very excited and are going to pull out more photos and talk see what else they can remember. All is well :-)
We recalled also "Uncle Jim" his wife was "Pat" and in the 1970's they would have been in about their late 50's or 60's, living near 6 Bells pub near Woodchurch in Kent (my Granny and Grandpa lived in a mobile home nearby).
Yes I think might try what you say re Marie and a birth certificate, as I cannot find a registration for her birth anywhere.
I am wondering if Ernestine was not a widow and this was used as a coverup, just perhaps as it seems that Marie potentially had two children illegitimately by Reginald Hamilton.
I wonder what the story behind it all is - fascinating!
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Thank you so much Rosie for all of your help with this, I would have been totally lost and never have got so far without you!
Its been like the most amazing unfolding detective story, and I can see how it can become quite obsessive!
Just gathering myself for next steps, and also have notice that my DNA result will come through soon, I am going to put this on Familydna see if anything comes up there to confirm all the things uncovered.
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Dear Rosie,
Just one more thing if its ok - you say further back:
"Marie M Saunders married in that name to Walter Lambert - June qtr 1919.
They appear together on street directories on Ancestry
That marriage should give Maries fathers details"
Could you tell me please how I would find Maries fathers details from this marriage?
Many thanks!
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Hmmm I am learning ...
So I found http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd and put the marriage below into both the local BerkshireBMD website and the all counties search. Unfortunately though the marriage does not show up, I wonder why? A shame as I would like to find if a father "Saunders" exists or has been named anywhere. I can't find her birth either to order a birth certificate. What a mystery!
Marie M Saunders
Spouse Surname Lambert
Date of Registration 1919 - Apr-May-Jun[1919]
Registration district Newbury
Inferred County Berkshire
Volume Number 2e
Page number 796
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Continuing updates Rosie (sorry for the deluge - I can't put this down!)!
So I have been going back over birth records as although the family story lines up - a french ancestor who was an artist pointing to the Le Forts, I am concerned about the discrepancies in birth dates for Ernest.
There are two records of interest re births:
1. Ernest Saunders 1892 Paddington - which would tie in with the age of Ernest on the 1911 census.
2. Ernest Frederick Le Fort 1890 - who was the child christened also by Ernestine Le Fort with no father named.
There is an Ernest Le Fort listed as a Furniture dealer at 118 Leyton High Road in 1925.
Ernest Saunders on the 1911 census aged 19, his occupation is listed as cabinet maker.
If Ernest Saunders was indeed actually the illegitimate child of Ernestine Le Fort - could this be one in the same person, reverting back to his real family name?
I would need the birth certificates of both 1 & 2 above, to clear up which if either of them is the son of Ernestine Saunders on 1911 census. But maybe I have missed something, I might pull some more 1911 searches over weekend when I am not so tired, see if I can work this all out!
It might be tiredness, but I had wondered - could Ernestine have registered her son twice? Once illegitimately, then 2 years later, might she have taken on this identity "Saunders" to live with her two children as a "widower"?
Could she have registered her son a second time or is that a huge stretch ...
Would this be why the birth of "Marie Saunders" in 1894 also present something of a mystery?
Will do some more research next week!
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Dear Rosie,
Just one more thing if its ok - you say further back:
"Marie M Saunders married in that name to Walter Lambert - June qtr 1919.
They appear together on street directories on Ancestry
That marriage should give Maries fathers details"
Could you tell me please how I would find Maries fathers details from this marriage?
Many thanks!
In case Rosie is still having internet problems; you will need to order a copy of the certificate from the GRO:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Cost is £9.25 and usually arrive within 7-10 days; use the reference details you have already found.
Nanny Jan
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Thank you Nanny Jan - I didn#t realise they did marriage too.
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Since 1837.....births, marriages and deaths.
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Hi Cathryn
You have been busy. :)
Thank you also nannyjan ;D
Ernestine - She says she has Private Means, so it will be interesting to see if she did have a 'Saunders' husband. It would not be unusual for a 'single' mother to state she was a widow on census. I would be expecting to find her childrens birth registrations in the Wandsworth registration district going by the Clapham place of birth.
I will send a PM about Daphne's half brother (Lambert)
I will have a look at Ernest and the rest of the info this afternoon and see what I can find
Rosie
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I don't think that Ernestine would have registered a birth twice. :-\
I am going to look at the Ernests one at a time
Sep qtr 1890 Ernest Frederick LeFort Marylebone 1a 556
We know he was christened with mother as Ernestine no fathers name.
I am only seeing one Ernest/Ernest F bn c1890
Possibly 1901 born Surrey a visitor with the Sadd family in Dulwich
In 1909 he marries Ada - she dies in 1913.
According to Army records Ernest Frederick has children (Ada) Eileen 13/2/11 child of his first marriage and Cecil 24/6/13 (son of Victoria) and his last occupation was Publican & Motor Driver.
He married Victoria in Cambridge in 1915. He is in 1916 street directory in Cambridge at The Spread Eagle.
He appears with Victoria in 1939 Leyton area (Essex). You have already found him in that area.
Finding Ernest Saunders however could be a nightmare ;D I wonder if it is worth waiting to see what Marie says about her father when she marries Walter Lambert - she could be telling fibs though.
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Finally in the 1960's an Anthony P Hamilton pops up in Maida Vale, just a few streets away from where Ernestine with children Ernest and Marie, are listed as living in the 1911 census. Living in the same house as Anthony P Hamilton in the 1960's is Jenni, James and JIM Morrison.
I have sent PM with additional information
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Dear Rosie,
I am also getting one other Ernest born 1892, have you seen him?
Ernest Saunders
Registration Year: 1892
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Paddington
But as you say, maybe a bit of an off a nightmare finding without the other info being inplace. I have some certificates on the way (I ordered Maries birth certificate with the Ernestine as mother to see if anything can be found).
Will go have a look at PM's now, thanks!
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It is possible that 1892 Ernest died in infancy
Birth June qtr 1892
Saunders Ernest
Paddington 1a 19
Deaths June qtr 1893
Saunders Ernest age 1
Paddington 1a 8
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Aha, that does seem a pretty clear link one to the next, good to clear up as it was troubling me that his birth year was the same as the one for Ernest Saunders on the 1911.
Just looking at all the other info ...
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Summarising here the outcomes of this huge long thread
And continuing the search to find "Reginald Hamilton"
Marie M Saunders (on 1911 aged 16 and living in Maida Vale daughter of Ernestine) gives birth it seems (tbc) to 3 children:
Daphne Marguerite Hamilton b1911 Paddington
Stewart E/R Hamilton b1914 Eastbourne Sussex
Anthony P Hamilton b1916 Willseden Middlesex
Daphne (my grandmother): birth certificate lists Reginald Hamilton, flannel manufacturers traveller as father.
Birth certificates are on order Anthony (will order Stewarts too later) to confirm if Reginald / Marie are listed as parents as for Daphne.
1939 census sees Anthony P Hamilton "Occupation traveller" living in Uckfield with Ernestine, mother of Marie. In the 1960's we find Anthony living back in Maida Vale with Stewart.
Back in 1939 - Marie is living a short way away from Anthony. She is now Marie Lambert, married to Walter Lambert, living with Daphne Jiggens (my gran), Hamilton Jiggens (Daphnes son) and two more locked records who could be other family members: Percy Charles (husband of Daphne), rex Jiggens (second son of Daphne) and / or Walter Lambert.
Marie and Reginald never appear to marry. It could be that Reginald dies in the war?
The question is - who is Reginald Hamilton? I have a few possibles on the 1901 / 1911 but have not been able to pin down for sure who he is.
If you like intrigue and mysteries read on -
It seems certain that Maries mother - Ernestine - also had her children out of wedlock too.
Ernestine Saunders b1864 - 1961 - mother of Eugene and Marie on the 1911 is listed as widowed.
However it seems from family pictures and stories that she is in fact Ernestine Le Fort who christens an illegitimate child in Marleybone 1890. And also has Marie Saunders in 1894.
Family stories say that my Grandmother Daphne was traveller - possibly Romany.
I have read on this forum that travellers "often didn't marry but would sometimes baptise their children".
It seems that we have two generations of women - Ernestine and Marie - in stable relationship where they give birth to several children, but do not marry the fathers.
Additionally in several places those children are listed as "traveller" -
Anthony P Hamilton on 1939
Reginald Hamilton on the birth certificate of Daphne.
So thats a summary of the story so far. I have some birth & marriage certificates due end of January, and also am doing dna matching on familydna.com
If anyone spots anything in the meantime - any help most welcome!
With thanks,
Cathryn
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I have recently been doing family research with my partner. We have studied the trees on ancestry and the internet and believe her great grandfather is a relative of Marie M Saunders. Keith Lawson Lambert was born in Tiverton, Devon on the 1st January 1927 (Mothers maiden name Saunders). This is after Basil (1923) and before Sheila A Lambert in 1931. I wondered if any of you have any opinions on this. Keith L Lambert is living with his supposed half brother Stewart E Hamilton in Uckfield, just down the road from Marie on the 1939 register.
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Hi there, yes indeed you are right, I have added Keith to my tree, not sure how I missed him! So you are you over on Ancestry? I have found a picture of Keith there on a tree, wonder if that is yours? If not if might be nice for you to see.
Wondering if you have any rumours or snippets of family lore about the Hamilton children that Marie had before meeting Walter? Marie never married the father - Reginald - and I can't track him down. Still a mystery/ By the way the name Saunders also is made up. Marie's mom Ernestine never married the father of her two children. He was simply named as "Ernest Saunders, A gentleman" on the birth certificates. The mom and children live in Maida Vale in the early 1900's - a place at the time notorious for housing "mistresses in every other flat". She adopts the name Saunders on the 1911 but there is no marriage.
Originally she was Ernestine Lefort, daughter of a french Jeweller.
Find me over at Ancestry if you are there, and you can fill in the tree.
I have recently been doing family research with my partner. We have studied the trees on ancestry and the internet and believe her great grandfather is a relative of Marie M Saunders. Keith Lawson Lambert was born in Tiverton, Devon on the 1st January 1927 (Mothers maiden name Saunders). This is after Basil (1923) and before Sheila A Lambert in 1931. I wondered if any of you have any opinions on this. Keith L Lambert is living with his supposed half brother Stewart E Hamilton in Uckfield, just down the road from Marie on the 1939 register.
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Hello. I am not a paid up member of ancestry so it will not let me message you. Maybe if you contact me and message me on there it might work. My username is eadyd001. . I do not know much of the family secrets but am really intrigued by what you have been writing.
* Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi there Eady, I have sent you an invite to the tree on ancestry, hopefully you can see it! Sorry my replies are a bit slow sometimes, work takes over and ancestry things have to take a back seat for a while! Good wishes.
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Hi all. This is all very new to me but I have been searching for more information about my ancestor Eugene Le fort and found this thread. Assuming we have the same person in mind as Eugene was a French jeweller/artist that lived in Crosby square. Like I say, I’m completely new to this but thought I would let you know that I have a little bit of artwork of eugenes including a self portrait if you would like to see it
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Dear Laura,
Yes that is indeed my ancestor, thank you for getting in touch, I would love to see some of his artwork! I will send you a private message.
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Dear Laura,
I am trying to send you my email address, but its bouncing back, rootschat says your message inbox is now full. I will put it here for a couple of days then delete it as I don't want it picked up by spammers. Let me know when you have it.
[email removed]
Good wishes,
Rose
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Just written to your email rose
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Email bounced back!
Eugene had a daughter called Hannah Marie who first married a Frederick Ambrose Sanders who died after one year of marriage and then she married Samuel Edmund bark. They had Mary Ann Phoebe Julie Bark who eventually gave birth to my grandma julia Joyce.
My grandma was a hoarder (think those extreme hoarders you see on tv) and so we had negative collection of things left behind but no names or dates. The self portrait that Eugene did was for his daughter on the eve of her wedding to Joesph (surname unknown) of the running horses inn in mickleham. That wedding didn’t happen but we don’t know anymore than that.
No info I’m afraid on the guys you are searching for. I remember a story that the le forts were very successful and lived in a grand house with a servant or two.... only later Ernestine was a servant herself which was surprisingly when from a wealthy family but I am unsure if that is factual or just a story....
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Dear Laura,
How exciting to hear all of this, I love it when new stories come from the past. I have emailed you, I hope you get it.
With good wishes,
Rose
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A few updates on this thread, the summary of what is known is below:
I have now gained some new information finally from someone who recalls "Reginald Hamilton".
He called himself "Rex" apparently, which makes sense of why my Grandmother Daphne called her children Hamilton and Rex (the latter being my father). He also had a large car, and a boat on the thames "indicating he was quite wealthy". This was recalled by someone who met him when she was young (she was born in the 1930's).
On the marriage certificate of my grandmother Daphne - in 1933 - Reginald / Rex was described as a "Stockbroker".
The previous summary below:
Summarising here the outcomes of this huge long thread
And continuing the search to find "Reginald Hamilton"
Marie M Saunders (on 1911 aged 16 and living in Maida Vale daughter of Ernestine) gives birth it seems (tbc) to 3 children:
Daphne Marguerite Hamilton b1911 Paddington
Stewart E/R Hamilton b1914 Eastbourne Sussex
Anthony P Hamilton b1916 Willseden Middlesex
Daphne (my grandmother): birth certificate lists Reginald Hamilton, flannel manufacturers traveller as father.
Birth certificates are on order Anthony (will order Stewarts too later) to confirm if Reginald / Marie are listed as parents as for Daphne.
1939 census sees Anthony P Hamilton "Occupation traveller" living in Uckfield with Ernestine, mother of Marie. In the 1960's we find Anthony living back in Maida Vale with Stewart.
Back in 1939 - Marie is living a short way away from Anthony. She is now Marie Lambert, married to Walter Lambert, living with Daphne Jiggens (my gran), Hamilton Jiggens (Daphnes son) and two more locked records who could be other family members: Percy Charles (husband of Daphne), rex Jiggens (second son of Daphne) and / or Walter Lambert.
Marie and Reginald never appear to marry. It could be that Reginald dies in the war?
The question is - who is Reginald Hamilton? I have a few possibles on the 1901 / 1911 but have not been able to pin down for sure who he is.
If you like intrigue and mysteries read on -
It seems certain that Maries mother - Ernestine - also had her children out of wedlock too.
Ernestine Saunders b1864 - 1961 - mother of Eugene and Marie on the 1911 is listed as widowed.
However it seems from family pictures and stories that she is in fact Ernestine Le Fort who christens an illegitimate child in Marleybone 1890. And also has Marie Saunders in 1894.
Family stories say that my Grandmother Daphne was traveller - possibly Romany.
I have read on this forum that travellers "often didn't marry but would sometimes baptise their children".
It seems that we have two generations of women - Ernestine and Marie - in stable relationship where they give birth to several children, but do not marry the fathers.
Additionally in several places those children are listed as "traveller" -
Anthony P Hamilton on 1939
Reginald Hamilton on the birth certificate of Daphne.
So thats a summary of the story so far. I have some birth & marriage certificates due end of January, and also am doing dna matching on familydna.com
If anyone spots anything in the meantime - any help most welcome!
With thanks,
Cathryn
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A few updates on this thread, the summary of what is known is below:
I have now gained some new information finally from someone who recalls "Reginald Hamilton".
He called himself "Rex" apparently, which makes sense of why my Grandmother Daphne called her children Hamilton and Rex (the latter being my father). He also had a large car, and a boat on the thames "indicating he was quite wealthy". This was recalled by someone who met him when she was young (she was born in the 1930's).
On the marriage certificate of my grandmother Daphne - in 1933 - Reginald / Rex was described as a "Stockbroker".
The previous summary below:
Summarising here the outcomes of this huge long thread
And continuing the search to find "Reginald Hamilton"
Marie M Saunders (on 1911 aged 16 and living in Maida Vale daughter of Ernestine) gives birth it seems (tbc) to 3 children:
Daphne Marguerite Hamilton b1911 Paddington
Stewart E/R Hamilton b1914 Eastbourne Sussex
Anthony P Hamilton b1916 Willseden Middlesex
Daphne (my grandmother): birth certificate lists Reginald Hamilton, flannel manufacturers traveller as father.
Birth certificates are on order Anthony (will order Stewarts too later) to confirm if Reginald / Marie are listed as parents as for Daphne.
1939 census sees Anthony P Hamilton "Occupation traveller" living in Uckfield with Ernestine, mother of Marie. In the 1960's we find Anthony living back in Maida Vale with Stewart.
Back in 1939 - Marie is living a short way away from Anthony. She is now Marie Lambert, married to Walter Lambert, living with Daphne Jiggens (my gran), Hamilton Jiggens (Daphnes son) and two more locked records who could be other family members: Percy Charles (husband of Daphne), rex Jiggens (second son of Daphne) and / or Walter Lambert.
Marie and Reginald never appear to marry. It could be that Reginald dies in the war?
The question is - who is Reginald Hamilton? I have a few possibles on the 1901 / 1911 but have not been able to pin down for sure who he is.
If you like intrigue and mysteries read on -
It seems certain that Maries mother - Ernestine - also had her children out of wedlock too.
Ernestine Saunders b1864 - 1961 - mother of Eugene and Marie on the 1911 is listed as widowed.
However it seems from family pictures and stories that she is in fact Ernestine Le Fort who christens an illegitimate child in Marleybone 1890. And also has Marie Saunders in 1894.
Family stories say that my Grandmother Daphne was traveller - possibly Romany.
I have read on this forum that travellers "often didn't marry but would sometimes baptise their children".
It seems that we have two generations of women - Ernestine and Marie - in stable relationship where they give birth to several children, but do not marry the fathers.
Additionally in several places those children are listed as "traveller" -
Anthony P Hamilton on 1939
Reginald Hamilton on the birth certificate of Daphne.
So thats a summary of the story so far. I have some birth & marriage certificates due end of January, and also am doing dna matching on familydna.com
If anyone spots anything in the meantime - any help most welcome!
With thanks,
Cathryn
Hi Cathryn,
I see you have a possible link to the Romany Saunders family. My grandmother and I (who are both descended from this family) have taken a DNA test on Ancestry and have uploaded our data to GEDmatch. If you have your DNA on either of these websites, we may be able to establish a link.
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A little bit of extra "wildcard" information here:
It was an aunt of mine who originally said my Dad had Romany ancestry. She was very adamant that it was the Lee family he was descended from, and that Dad hung around in a gang of "Lee brothers" in his younger days. He was in a 'Teddy boy' gang I recall him telling me, that got up to no good.
I had originally dismissed that piece of information not finding the Lee name on any certificates. However as others have been 'creative' around names on documentation on this part of the tree, I thought it worth considering that I can't trace these men because the names I have are not their actual names.
My GEDmatch number in case anyone wants to run a match is A757480