RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Girl Guide on Friday 08 January 16 14:18 GMT (UK)
-
Walter England wrote a letter to my mother in 1937 and gave his address as Liverpool ROAD, Glen Eden, Auckland.
I have some copies of electoral rolls and in 1935, 1938 and 1949 the address is given as Liverpool ROAD. In 1946 the address is Liverpool STREET.
I am trying to find out exactly which number in Liverpool Road/Street Walter lived in.
I wrote to Digital NZ about a photo of the road. I was informed that.... I did a quick search and I was unable to find a “Liverpool Road” in Auckland, only a “Liverpool Street” which is in the centre of Auckland city.
I am now totally confused over this! Where did he live, ROAD or STREET?
-
Hello.
Sorry I'm not an Aucklander but I've found this Auckland Library history of street names helpful in the past.
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll
All the best,
Alan.
OOP's link does not appear to work so will add another and if it does not work just Google AUCKLAND CITY STREET NAMES
http://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/EN/heritage/localhistory/aucklandstreets/Pages/aucklandstreets.aspx
And WEST AUCKLAND / Waitakere street name history.
http://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/EN/heritage/localhistory/aucklandstreets/waitakerestreets/Pages/waitakerestreets.aspx#l
-
Hello Girl Guide, we meet again :)
I am not able to identify the exact position of the road but the following shows it did exist in 1935 in Glen Eden........
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19350704.2.2&srpos=1&e=-----1937--10-AS%2cNZH-1----2liverpool+road--
It was still there in 1945.....
Minniehaha.
-
A suggestion, you could contact Auckland Council Archives to find the new name of Liverpool Road....
www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz › ... › Council archives
Minniehaha.
-
Let Google be your friend ;D ;D ;D ;D
Liverpool Street - Glen Eden. Named before 1961, for local Liverpool emigrants, it was renamed Tahi Terrace from February 1969.
Tahi Terrace runs off Rua Road,in Maori Tahi is one and Rua is two
Cheers Janette
-
Confusing when the Council records show "street" instead of "road" ???
Minniehaha.
-
There is a Liverpool Street in the central city as well as one in Epsom just to add to the confusion
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Minnie & Janette
You can see why I'm confused now can't you! Why give an address of Liverpool Road if it doesn't exist? The council seems to think there was only a Street.
Is there any kind of directory that could be checked for Liverpool Road and its inhabitants?
-
I'm sure a Rootschatter will be able to look up the Electoral Rolls for you.........
Minniehaha.
-
Minnie, if you look at my very first post you will see that I have looked at the electoral rolls. Frustratingly for me they don't give the number that the person lived at, only the name of the road.
What about old telephone directories? Are there any of those available that cover the 1930s that I could look at on the internet? That's assuming that Walter had a telephone!
-
I would suggest you contact the Funeral Director, who were Battersby Funeral Services. They should have the full address at the time of death. Janette, do you have a link for them?
Cheers
KHP
-
Hi KHP
here is the link
http://www.battersbyfuneralservices.co.nz/contact-us
They are not good at replying,if they don't answer within a week let me know and I will go in to their office as I know they have all the records,did he die at home or in hospital?
Cheers Janette
-
They were also Eva Emma England's Funeral Directors, so may as well ask for her, in case Walter died elsewhere.
Cheers
KHP
-
Hi Janette and Kiwi
Thank you for your information. I'll try writing to the funeral directors and see what happens. If I get no reply I'll let you know on here.
-
Confusing when the Council records show "street" instead of "road" ???
Minniehaha.
Hello again.
Re the above quote, I say not really.
#1 Apologies for skip reading the post and not spotting Glen Eden, or I would have advised to cast your net wider than AUCKLAND CITY.
#2 When one is researching, it is important to put oneself in the time frame of the research.
While today Greater Auckland is a very large area, even in my memory places like Mt Eden were separately administered Boroughs, and that is why the Auckland City Libraries pages on former street names is so good. For emergency services, and administrative reasons, many Roads & Streets were renamed at the time of the amalgamation. [Early 1960's ?]
Until very recent times Glen Eden, would have been administered by first a County Council; a District Council; and then a neighbouring City, to AUCKLAND CITY.
Historically a road was the means of travel within the country, but as they got swallowed up by a Borough or City, most, but not all, become known as streets. Hence Great North Road, West Auckland etc.
- Alan.
-
It was Glen Eden borough council which with neighbouring councils became Waitakere City and then the huge amalgamation saw it become part of Auckland City Council
Cheers Janette
-
Waitakere City
Cheers Janette
That was what the 1946/49 E/R's came under.
Cheers
KHP
-
Hi all
I can see what Alan means. Over the years a place develops, gets bigger and absorbs what would have been villages which had their own road names, which then get changed to reflect the bigger area.
The same thing has happened in Bristol where I live. Originally a much smaller place, expanded and swallowed up the villages of Bedminster and Brislington and no doubt other places in the surrounding area. Bristol is now a city and county in its own right. In that time probably a large number of roads would have been renamed and the old names disappeared into the history books.
Have now written to the funeral people and await further developments.
-
Hello again.
Here with, if it works, is a link to a funeral notice upon the death of Eva Emma ENGLAND, February 28th 1944. Gives some family details.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19440228.2.8&srpos=15&e=-------100--1----2Liverpool++Street+Glen+Eden--
A PapersPast search for Liverpool Street, Glen Eden, gains some 20 hits most being adverts in regard to land sales, and none appear to give a Street/Road number. The street was relatively short.
- Alan.
-
Hello Alan
Now that says Street doesn't it. So when did Road become Street I wonder?
Do you know if it is possible to find any street maps of Auckland as it would have been in the late 1920's & early to late 1930's?
I can't think that Walter would give his address as Liverpool Road if it didn't exist. He wouldn't get any post would he!
-
This might be one of those things you may never find the answer to,you could try emailing the council archives to ask them
http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/AboutCouncil/HowCouncilWorks/councilarchives/Pages/visitingarchivesoffice.aspx
You will need to email the West office as they should hold all the records from the old Waitakere City Council
West
Address:
GPT Building
4 Waipareira Avenue (behind the Western Leader building)
Henderson
Cheers Janette
-
Thanks for that Janette, I'll see if I can get anywhere with the council.
-
Hello Alan
Now that says Street doesn't it. So when did Road become Street I wonder?
Do you know if it is possible to find any street maps of Auckland as it would have been in the late 1920's & early to late 1930's?
I can't think that Walter would give his address as Liverpool Road if it didn't exist. He wouldn't get any post would he!
Hello again.
Over the last 12 months I've been a regular visitor to this part of greater Auckland assisting a distant relative who is experiencing heart problems. Mow his lawns etc, and while there I spent some four days researching in the Henderson Library of that area of West Auckland right out to the Manakau Harbour heads, and visiting historic sites of pioneering interest. I had not researched it before, but had an interest in the area as one branch of our family were trail blazers out that way from the 1860's.
Therefore last night I went looking for material on your late depression era, info and maps of Glen Eden formerly known as Waikomiti but without much luck. The ones I have collected of interest to me predated that time. The maps will be there, it's just a case of looking in the right places and digging them out.
Unfortunately the [heritage] photos of that area that I found on line were also not of your time zone. Over the next few days I will look again to see what I can dig out. I have one survey map of the greater Titirangi area c1900 which I could forward to you and another of the 1940's..
You will note in previous posts that in it's earliest days it was called Liverpool Road, and was very near to the few shops and Railway Station, that was very important to the development of West Auckland. The Road was relatively short, and when post war the area took off for residential housing the subdivision of title holdings intensified.
Again I would suggest that we go back to the period.
Road / Street was really immaterial as was numbering of properties.
In earliest times letter and parcel post was held C/- addressee, at the nearest postal office, and when sufficient local pressure was applied, some form of postal delivery service was contracted out to contractors. In the 1880's it was quite often held by a local parent, who got their children to deliver to the householder, or a local carrier or coach service, that combined it with their other business interests.
Here in the Waikato where my family have been for over 100 years, the families post was first collected from the Post Office at the nearest Railway Station, or delivered by a contractor, every few days, before the RURAL DELIVERY service got underway six days per week.
Those NZ Postal contractors, up until say the 1970's would deliver milk, bread, paper, groceries, spare farm machinery parts, chemists prescriptions, and within reason, any thing else the contractor was prepared to collect and deliver.
Our local ones had 250 - 300 postal clients each, and knew were every one was located, even though agricultural farm employees were constantly changing farms as they gained experience and job opportunities.
YET it was not until the 1990's that a RAPID numbering system was introduced based upon the number of kilometres along the roads you were on. The need here being the creation of centralized emergency call centres, large distances away from "local knowledge".
My Grand Parents three miles out from the CBD, on a street on the fringe of what is now a large city, were not assigned a street postal number until the 1950's yet there must have been about 20 houses on it.
All the best.
- Alan.
-
A 1940's Glen Eden area map, on line at the Auckland City Library,
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=PREV_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aucklandcity.govt.nz%2Fdbtw-wpd%2Fheritageimages%2Fadvanced.htm%3Fmapsonly%3Dyes&TN=heritageimages&SN=AUTO30582&SE=197&RN=1&MR=20&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=HIOReport&EF=&DF=HIORecord&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=2&ID=&MF=WPEngMsg.ini&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=0&NR=0&NB=0&SV=0&SS=1&BG=&FG=&QS=advanced.htm&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=ISO-8859-1
If the link does not work, it is titled NZ Maps online 2258 Auckland City Library Heritage Collection Maps.
I find the Auckland Library site hard to navigate, as it is so large, but with perseverance you should get to it eventually, as I have done.
I have another of the area in 1906. A TITIRANGI area Lands and Survey one, which I think is also on line, but the cleanest copy of it that I have, is a photo I have taken from a wall display at the River Mill Cottage Museum, Henderson. A copy of which I can supply privately.
- Alan.
-
Hi Alan
My goodness you have been industrious looking things up. The 1940's map is interesting but of course not detailed enough to pick out Liverpool Road/Street as it only names the major roads.
I can see the cemetery on there and the Oratia area which is where Walter Frederick England married his wife Lucy Shaw.
I shall be delighted to receive a copy of the 1906 map, thank you.
-
Hello yet again.
I’ve now made time, to consult the few survey plans and maps that I have.
A quick Google of Tahi Terrace, Glen Eden, gives you a roading map of the immediate area. On closer inspection I see I was possibly in error, as the Fruitvale Stn., shown on that map, I believe would have been a more modern commuter stop provided on the railway line.
There are faint lines on these maps, and at some magnifications, they can clearly be defined as the present day cadastral, land title boundaries. The information re ownership and registered encumbrances of these titles, is in the public domain, and can be researched back through preceding tiles and subdivisions, to the original NZ land surveys, and the public Crown Lands. In this case the larger initial land titles, having been supplied to the market, as either freehold or leasehold properties. [c. 1850 – 1860’s] The Earth View option allows you to see the house / building placement of these times.
You don’t say if you hold information that may indicate if the ENGLAND’S were renters or possibly title holders. Either way in the 1930’s they possibly had access to a farmlet [small farm] or commercial sized market garden.
With the 1880’s arrival of a rail link to Auckland City, the area became the market garden of Auckland.
The railway getting to New Lynn Station [on the flat land, and on the ancient PORTAGE route between the two great Auckland Harbours] on to Glen Eden Station [formerly known by it’s Parish name of Waikomiti ] with it’s vales and rises, was the making of this area, and the stations are only a little over a mile apart.
Liverpool Road/Street and then Tahi Terrace, is half way between the two Railway Stations. On a 1906 Land Survey plan, it can clearly be seen that in the immediate area [allotments 165, 159, 158 Waikumiti Parish] there were a number of 10 to 15 acre farmlets nestled together around a gully, with neighbouring farms, on the more arable land, ranging from some 20 to 50 acres.
This plan does not show provision for the roading, that was to become named, as per above.
By the time of the March 1944 TITIRANGI Survey plan [Map 2258] in the Library Heritage collection, it can be seen those three or four farms, had been subdivided into domestic sections, with half of the present Tahi Terrace shown on the shoulder of the rise, lying parallel to the railway, but not extended down to Fruitvale Road, following the fall of a small watershed. The resolution on my copy is to low, but it appears as though there are about 10 buildings on titles that are one acre or less in size. Tahi Terrace presumably being extended in later subdivisions.
And as can be seen from the present day Google map, today’s subdivided land titles bare little resemblance, to the original farmlets, and egress of over 100 years ago.
Unlike the UK. This land has only been worked up from it’s native state since, the 1860’s or thereabouts.
Alan.
PS. Apologies to those who find this, look through history, boring.
PPS. AND NOW upon logging on to add this material to your thread, the surname SHAW JUMPS off the page at me.
If you ever get to Auckland NZ, you have a wealth of documented local history about those pioneering families including the SHAWS. They were/are mentioned, sometimes in detail, in the local history books, and papers, that I've been studying these past 12 months.
There is a SHAW road at Waikomiti / Waikumiti / Waikumete, now known as Oratia. Those old pioneering families were large, and interlinked by marriage, so it's quite possible we have some tenuous link somewhere.
All in a Sunday afternoons research from my computer and files of research.
- Alan,
Re photo:- On lot 85 appears 21.1.0 and that is the area of the lot expressed as Acres. Perches. Rods. It is only since 1967 that all title areas are marked in Hectares.
-
Thank you for that map Alan. Interesting to see how different it was then to what is there now. I see that you marked Tahi Terrace for me. Do I assume that Liverpool Road got renamed Street and is now Tahi Terrace?
On the modern day map Tahi Terrace appears to be a road that looks like two sides of a square (roughly!).
-
Hi
The link below suggests that that road was called Liverpool Street in the 1920s. This suggests that the reference to Liverpool Road is simply a mistake. How it was made would depend upon the process used at that time to create the Electoral Roll.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gtk/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gtk/)
Andy
-
Just throwing this into the mix.........
From 'Papers Past'-
All entries (20) for Liverpool Street Glen Eden, cover the period 1928 to 1944.
All entries (15) for Liverpool Road Glen Eden, cover the period 1935 to 1945*.
[*This being the cut off year in 'Papers Past for the Auckland newspapers.]
??? ???
Minniehaha.
-
Thanks for that Andycand.
The plot thickens, for the non-local, just like my various spellings for Waikomiti. They are all in print [over time] found in the last 12 months of my research.
What can confuse, even further, in your example, is the [Location] description of Huia Valley, in association with Glen Eden. They are many hilly miles apart, and the "Huia Valley" in this context is more probably a broad area, nod to electoral or demographic areas.
Have a good look at todays maps, and you will be perplexed. Even more so if you were to walk that way each week, as many did in the 1920's, from the Glen Eden railway station, to their job building the great water storage dams of Nihotapu and Huia, in the Waitakere Ranges. Even today, by car, it is a 15 to 20 minute drive, up the West Coast Road or out along to Titirangi and then the Huia Road, to the Manukau Harbour Entrance Channel, and various bays.
- Alan.
-
Said I was going to bed an hour ago Ha ha !!
http://www.localhistoryonline.org.nz/cgi-bin/PUI?a=d&cl=CL4&cls=Shaw%2C%20Mary&e=0--------0-----------0-1-0-0-
Alan.
-
Thank you for that map Alan. Interesting to see how different it was then to what is there now. I see that you marked Tahi Terrace for me. Do I assume that Liverpool Road got renamed Street and is now Tahi Terrace?
On the modern day map Tahi Terrace appears to be a road that looks like two sides of a square (roughly!).
Good morning - I think though, rather red eyed.
Recapping:-
As per reply 1 and link, West Auckland Street names history from the Auckland City Library.
#1. I have no reason to challenge their statement that Liverpool Street marked on a survey plan of the 1920's found this morning [Map 7937] became known as Liverpool Road and then possibly after it was extended down through lotts 158 & 159 to Fruitvale Road, became renamed Tahi Terrace.
#2. In the section of the 1906 Survey plan already posted it can be seen that there were a number of small allotments 165, 158 & 159 in the area you are interested in. I can privately supply a copy of the full TITIRANGI survey plan that I photographed from a Museum wall display.
#3. In the [Map 7937 c.1920's] in the Libraries Heritage maps section, is a clear survey plan showing lott 165 subdivided into quite a number of house sections with Liverpool street being a no exit street off Rua Road that ran parallel to the railway, along the shoulder of the rising land, BUT not turning down between lots 158 and 159 to reach Fruitvale Road. Note also in this plan, to have done so, would have required the cancellation of sections already surveyed along Fruitvale Road.
[EDIT - OOP's upon looking at the now posted 1920's plan I see that Rua Street was formerly known as CROYDON Road so the roading in that immediate area, when through some name changes. Interesting and a challenge for researchers]
#4. In the [Map 2258 c. March 1944] in the Libraries Heritage maps collection is a very detailed survey plan showing not only the cadastral boundaries, but also land contours and buildings plus the hedge rows and trees in ever expanding orchards of the area. Not sure if actual from aerial photos, or figurative from land surveying.
My online copy is low resolution, so is hard to blow up to see and study the detail. From what I could make out I was assuming [in previous posts] that the initial subdivision of lot 165 had been into one acre lots, which was a common practice of that area in the Waikato. However upon locating Map 7937 this morning it can clearly be seen that the lot 165 was surveyed into house sections at an earlier time than I had anticipated. Therefore my comments about possibly being on a small farm could well be in error, unless the ENGLANDS were there before the Great Depression.
#5. I was recently advised by the Library, that high resolution copies of their heritage collection can be purchased, and supplied by email for NZ$15.50. Assuming any material you want a copy of is free of copyright.
Email address; library_photos@aucklandcouncil.govt.nz
#6 I have checked my copy of the interment plan of the Oratia Cemetery, on the West Coast Road almost opposite SHAW ROAD Oratia, but could find no SHAW burials. Perhaps they were Catholic ?
Now very late for todays awaiting farm work, so must be off. Hope you find this research interesting.
- Alan.
-
Out of curiosity I drove through Tahi Terrace yesterday,there are a few bungalows which would have been built in about the 1920's and then a lot of 1940-1960 styled houses
http://www.renovate.org.nz/bungalow/
Cheers Janette
-
Out of curiosity I drove through Tahi Terrace yesterday,there are a few bungalows which would have been built in about the 1920's and then a lot of 1940-1960 styled houses
http://www.renovate.org.nz/bungalow/
Cheers Janette
SNAP, or at least you beat me. Should be up that way again in a few days to mow my relatives lawn, and was thinking would try to get some camera shots. Have got rather involved trying to find old survey plans and photos of that general area. Wished I was a better navigator and advanced searcher within the Auckland Library Heritage Collections. Could have done to have found this mornings map find months ago, would have saved making ill founded assumptions from my limited resources.
Alan.
-
Unearthing the history of Liverpool Street, Glen Eden.
- Alan
-
Well much to my surprise I have had a reply from Battersby the funeral directors. However I am no further forward and in fact she said the address was Liverpool Street.
She did say that back in 1938 Glen Eden would have been mainly farms and orchards. So there may have been a farm or orchard name to the property, or they were the only ones living on Liverpool Street.
-
Funeral Directors in NZ are usually very helpful,Battersby's have been round for years.
You may have to accept you will never get to the bottom of the street/road saga unless the archives come up trumps
Cheers Janette
-
Hi Janette
It does look like the road/street problem is not going to be solved. However I do have contact with a living descendant of Walter's so maybe they may have information on Walter's place of abode. I'll just have to wait and see.
-
The main thing is you know where the street is/was and where he lived,do you have a street number?
Cheers Janette
-
Girl Guide,try this lady she has an amazing knowledge of West Auckland hisotry
http://timespanner.blogspot.co.nz/p/behind-timespanner_25.html
Cheers Janette
-
do you have a street number?
Cheers Janette
See Reply #9 that is what Girl Guide was wanting from the Electoral Rolls. That is the needle GG is wanting as well.
Cheers
KHP
-
Thanks KHP ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
-
Girl Guide,
If they lived on a farm, then there wouldn't have been a number, I have just checked the E/R's for 1938 for my family, who were farmers, and they are just listed as the Road they lived in, checked all the envelopes my father sent back from WW2 and everything is just addressed with the name of the Road. They did eventually did get a number but that wasn't until the 1960's.
Cheers
KHP
-
Minnie, if you look at my very first post you will see that I have looked at the electoral rolls. Frustratingly for me they don't give the number that the person lived at, only the name of the road.
What about old telephone directories? Are there any of those available that cover the 1930s that I could look at on the internet? That's assuming that Walter had a telephone!
Hello again.
I've had a break, and spent four days near Kelston, so included ENGLAND and Liverpool St/Rd in a list of West Auckland research objectives.
Some local history books make reference to early Phone Directories, which I assumed meant that they had researched them at the Henderson Library [not family retained copies] but the advice I got on Sunday afternoon, from a research section duty librarian, was that such hard copies are now held by the Auckland branch of the National Archives. See a list of 28 - 1922 Henderson sub-exchange sub-subscribers from Glen Eden to Oratia and even several at Nihotapu on the Manakau Harbour, in this local history book; ORATIA, My Valley by W, R. ALLEN 1984 [?] p. 27 & p 28. ( 46R SHAW E J M. Shaw Road, Oratia.)
As an aside the Auckland National Archive branch holds a PROBATE for one Walter Frederick ENGLAND, Railway employee, last residing at Langholm. [Details in the morning, OOPS it's already morning. So later when I have time to study my notes.]
EDIT:
ENGLAND Walter Federick, Langholm,
Retired Railway Employee. 1949.
BBAE 1570 - 922. P 1570 - 1949
With regard to Street Directories; the librarian sat me down at a computer, and together we spent nearly an hour going through the WISES Street Directories of that period. The implication was that the old hard copies are no longer held [OR not made available to attending public] instead we accessed on-line digital page copies made available by ANCESTRY. Ancestry must also have transcribed the contents, because the Librarian was able to conduct searches that quoted page number results. Then the fun began trying to find the Surname entry. [No highlighting colours]
Not being familiar with the ENGLAND family tree, it was impossible to sort out all the hits we had, both at varying addresses in Auckland, and further south. There may even have been two Walter Frederick ENGLANDS on the go during the depression, or the directory was a bit slow keeping up with the change of address of W.F.ENGLAND. Many ENGLANDS were associated with the Railways.
EDIT:
1936 Bollard Avenue [possibly Delta now - will have to check]
W. F. ENGLAND, Clerk.
1938 / 1940 6 Methvern Road Avondale, Clerk and there were others including a Ralph ENGLAND Railway Employee.
And if the ones ''Girl Guide'' is interested in, or a close relative [Father, Brother, Son or Nephew], I possibly have a photo of the house. One of four Railway employee houses built 1927 -1929. I spoke to one current [4 yrs] owner. I also spoke to a near-by lady who had been resident since the 1960's.
The research period is the time of the Great depression, and I know of one two bedroomed house in Hamilton where three families lived. Two married couples, three very young children, and their hosts an unmarried Brother and Sister some ten years older.
Must to bed for now. Back later today or tomorrow, with an overview update.
PS KHP, once I found the 1929 survey plan we became aware that lot 165 was surveyed into domestic house sections, so even a group of a few neighbouring unsold titles would only represent an acre or so of land. But more on that next post. Street numbering was not often used in the material I've researched in this area, in this time frame.
Tahi Terrace is now street numbered using the odds and evens numbering system. A house owner I spoke to referred to her street address as number 24 yet on the survey plan it was title number 17. Most of those surveyed sections that were 250 feet deep, now hold three family homes. I was also advised why the initial survey and no exit street, did not extend down to Fruitvale road, was because that area [allotments 158 & 159] were in the neighbouring town borough.
Bye for now.
- Alan.
PPS I will privately email some 14 photocopied pages and 5 or 6 photos once I make time to scan and prepare them for emailing.
-
Hi Alan
My, you have been a busy bee!
Just to put you in the picture - Walter England (1866 - 1938) went to NZ in 1905 with 2nd wife and family. Also with them was Walter Frederick England (1890 - 1949) son from Walter's 1st marriage. Walter F was a train driver which you discovered.
-
Yet again.
Leighton's was another Street Address Directory, competing with WISES. I have not asked who might have copies on-line or in Greater Auckland. Henderson Library put me on to WISES.
H/W is a clip of my transcribing for a project of mine, from their issue of 1949, for three miles out from the centre of a large Waikato Town. NOTE; no street numbers are given.
Transcript:-
LEIGHTON’S AUCKLAND PROVINCIAL DIRECTORY 1949
MAHOE STREET Rt.
Presbyterian Church
RAY Mrs
HENTON Desmond T. – Clerk
HAYCOCK Arthur – Farmer
BARNETT Thomas - Hospital Employee
WARREN Alan
GIBSON Ms
DARBY J.
POLLARD W.
DAWSON Mrs
SUTTON Albert – Traveller
TILLER William J. – Mechanic
ALLEN William H. – Accountant
TISCH Steven – Plumber
HARVEY Chas – Estate Agent
-------- Lt.
BISHOP S.
HOPKINSON Harry, - Smithy
BUCKLAND Mervin - Clerk
DUFF Arthur - Gas Works Employee
PRIEST Owen J. – Clerk
WATTS J. A. - Manager
PRISK Cecil B. – Clerk
Regards,
- Alan.
-
Hmm so maybe people had house names before the numbering system kicked in. Otherwise the postman would have had to know exactly who lived where, unless letters were delivered to one place to be picked up later.
-
Hi again.
I have been told that the first houses at the end of the [then 1927] no exit street, were Railway Department employee homes.
They can be seen by using this research service.
26 Tahi Terrace [Blue/Green home.]
https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/26+Tahi+Terrace+Glen+Eden/@-36.911033,174.6653812,3a,75y,33.43h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1sCGhi7UgUsYyZDLKyJfH_Vw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x9ac5158aee943815!6m1!1e1
28 Tahi Terrace [Fawn painted home]
https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/28+Tahi+Terrace+Glen+Eden/@-36.9110907,174.6654727,3a,75y,45.04h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1soA8aqQj4qgPreUS9CTpFPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x43cbab23b0a0c78!6m1!1e1
30 Tahi Terrace [Yellow Home]
https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/30+Tahi+Terrace+Glen+Eden/@-36.9112155,174.6656187,3a,75y,40.18h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1sAh4y0O49Tdh1UoU7muAy9g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x37f408120a36c350!6m1!1e1
According to the current owner [January 2016] this home was built in 1927 as one of four NZ Railway employee houses, backing on to what was to become the Scroggy Hill railway cuttings. Doing away with two dangerous level crossings. West Coast Road was bridged and Croydon Street / Rua Street was given new access to the West Coast Road.
Papers past research and local history stories, reveal that the NZ Government set aside £40,000 and the NZ Railways Department allowed for a workforce of 50 men; and one Steam Shovel, over a two year period to considerably lower the railway line, as it crossed the local summit used by the West Coast Road, just before the Waikumete / Glen Eden Station. The spoil from there was used to re-align the grade and tight arks of the line back down to New Lynn. And change it from a one in thirty three to a one in sixty climb. Thereafter [1939] Trains were no longer needing an extra shunt to surmount the steep rise with it’s tight bends, or have to be broken down into two halves at New Lynn, and hauled over the saddle separately.
There were risks cutting the deviation so close to the existing working line. After one big storm the cutting face being worked on gave way, half burying two men. Tragically one man died, in an accident when dumping the spoils, to create the New Lynn end, earth embankment.
32 Tahi Terrace [a more modern home on lot 22 of the 1927 subdivision]
https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/32+Tahi+Terrace+Glen+Eden/@-36.9112812,174.6656955,3a,75y,44.68h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1sqyQa2NHNbOrk2qTk1Xwvag!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x8678483438c7246f!6m1!1e1
Attached are two of my photos taken January 17, 2016.
Also local history titles recently consulted in my research of the development of Glen Eden, out into the Waitakere’s and the Manukau Harbour Entrance.
Refer to:-
IN THOSE DAYS. An oral history of Glen Eden, by Pauline VELA.
WEST AUCKLAND REMEMBERS. Edited by James NORTHCOTE. West Auckland Historical Association Volume 2 by Brian CORBAN 1992.
1882 – 1982 THE LITTLE SCHOOL IN THE VALLEY – Oratia School 100 years.
ORATIA, MY VALLEY. W. R. ALLEN [1984 ?]
THE SETTLEMENT OF THE HUIA. BY Norman LANG 1985.
HUIA, An album from the past. [Illustrated] by Norman LANG.
OR contact the:-
WEST AUCKLAND HISTORICAL SOCIETY INC. Mill Cottage Henderson.
Dub dub dub westaucklandhistory dot org dot nz
Happy hunting,
- Alan.
-
Two more photos.
- Alan.
-
Now Alan,what are you trying to do? ? ? ? ? ? ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is Rua ROAD not Street lol
Cheers Janette
-
TOO much, for too many people, and burning the midnight oil. Rushing to get some farm essentials done, so that I can escape up your way, for another long weekend. No wonder Sophie gets confused. Like a silly English man, I'm out into the mid day sun to top some farm paddocks and then mow the family lawns. Should have been out in the relative cool of the morning or evening, but that is not happening today. Looks like another scorcher of a day; must take a water bottle.
Cheers - Alan.
-
Hi Alan
This is certainly becoming something of a trip down memory lane, delving into the past of the Glen Eden area. I rather think you are enjoying yourself doing this!
For me it is a little difficult to place everything as I am not a native of Auckland and have never been to New Zealand. But despite that I am finding it interesting seeing how the area has developed over the years.
The photos you provided of the early houses in Tahi Terrace appear to be wooden. Are they or just made to look like that?
-
Auckland was known for it's abundance of world renown durable native timbers. In the upper North Island timber was the domestic building material of choice until the 1960's. Then only brick veneer, not the double skin load bearing brick walls of the Australian homes of a similar period. Only down town shops etc were built using concrete, brick and stone.
Sent Pm. Must back to our lawns. They do not mow themselves.
Alan.
PS. Re that 100 plus year old home on the West Coast Road corner with Rua ROAD. [Reply 48]
It could just as easily be found in San Fransisco, as large numbers of our pre-cut native timber homes were exported following their devastating earth quake. Kauri weather boards, Totora windows, Mati flooring, Kauri or any number of other native timbers for framing, including Rimu though it was not long before Rimu was more reserved for furniture, with its great colours and grain, that varnishes and polishes very well.
-
Hi - Re my post #30 with regard to the Mary SHAW [and others] oral histories. More info in:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=739909.msg5861648#msg5861648
- Alan.
-
Janette
Just to let you know that I contacted the lady whose web link you gave me and wow, has she come up with the goods!
She found the sale of land record which showed Walter England buying plot no. 25. He bought it in 1930. There is also a register of all the people who have bought this piece of land over the years. She told me that the current number is 25 Tahi Terrace.
So I trotted over to Google maps to try and locate no 25 Tahi Terrace. I am looking at a house but not sure if it is no 25. It has brown fencing with spaces, a black railing type gate, white lower half which includes the garage door, pale brick top half and a lean to on the right hand side. Quite a bit of greenery on either side. There is no obvious number displayed to verify that I am looking at no. 25.
Can anyone verify if I am looking at no. 25? Thank you.
-
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but there is a small problem here Girl Guide........
The plot (?) or Lot numbers were allocated by the Land Transfer (surveying) system and the street numbers by the local council. It is unlikely that the Lot and street number would be the same.
Minniehaha.
-
Okay Minnie, fair enough.
Hopefully you can see the plot map with 25 near the end by the bend. Where would you say that was in the current Tahi Terrace? To the left of the map is Croyden Road.
-
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but there is a small problem here Girl Guide........
The plot (?) or Lot numbers were allocated by the Land Transfer (surveying) system and the street numbers by the local council. It is unlikely that the Lot and street number would be the same.
Minniehaha.
I agree Minnie,our numbering is odds one side and even the other side as Alan mentioned earlier in the thread
Cheers Janette
-
Alan has said number 30 is on lot 21 and number 32 on lot 22
Cheers Janette
-
If it is 25 you are looking for this it is,the number is on the letterbox
Cheers Janette
-
Hello again regulars.
Thanks ladies for your help. As it turns out I do have a distant link, by marriage, to the SHAW family of Oratia and the Mary SHAW who was interviewed. As in her interview she states that she was the only daughter in a large family of boys, I'm not certain just where Lucy Alice SHAW fits in, but when I became aware that Lucy married into the subject family [ENGLAND] of this thread, I got very involved digging out my old West Auckland research notes, and trying to find a greater selection of old survey plans etc.
From the research done it is obvious that street [postal] numbers were not considered important enough to include in newspaper classified adverts [B D & M] street directories, and though I have not looked, am assuming from the previous posts, voting rolls pre WWII.
What we did find were references to the survey lot / allotment numbers. Then when I did the door knocking the one lady referred to her street [postal] number, as one or two numbers away from that which a Google search photo shows to be her home. When I blew the Google image up the number on the letterbox matched Google's street address search hit. This lady did say she had lived in the street from the 1960's but had lived in several homes. As upwards of three homes now stand on each of those 1927 allotments, I don't yet know how that has impacted on the street numbering of properties, nor if those 1927 titles were further sub-divided or were cross leased. Though most of the houses look older, than when the system of cross leasing was introduced of private homes and their land. The lady did say the back of some titles were realigned under the Public Works Act when the railway was lowered in the late 1930's, and in her case one small parcel of former railways land was given in return on a separate title not conjoined. All adding to the development of the neighbouring properties.
This added to the fact that it was often late at night that I was posting to this thread even my work is [and has to be] open to peer review.
Tonight I will try to find time to review my posts on this thread to make sure I have not added to the confusion with typo's.
- Alan.
-
As I see it, the only way to be really sure and to settle the matter once and for all, is to request an historical search of the Certificate of Title relating to the Lot you are interested in. This would track the ownership from day one until now. Having the name of the current owner would lead to confirmation of the street number.
I note that the person from whom I think you obtained the plan, has a licence to download the C.T. from Land Information New Zealand. [LINZ].
There would most likely be a charge involved.
It is also a document you might like to have for your records. :)
Minniehaha.
-
OOP's Apologies Girl Guide.
Just me in a hurry, as per usual jumping in, without reading back a couple of thread posts.
I did not get to see the lady I believe would have given you that material as I left her phone number at home.
If readers refer back to my post #31 the full survey plan can be seen and on it ALLOTMENT 25 is on the right heading from Croydon Street [? Rd.] then Rua Road now, towards the end of the then no exit street. Third section from the bend. [Facing EAST, the railway and todays Kelston Shops]
Not sure if I photographed that house myself, and the street postal number will be an ODD number but may not be 25, but will not be far away as I did photograph several houses opposite.
Try GOOGLING close ODD street numbers until you can clearly see the corner property frontage and then work back two more titles. Late for an appointment so must be off,
Alan.
-
Read reply #54.
Alan.
-
Hi all
I was sent a copy of the Certificate of Title Under Land Transfer Act which shows who has bought the plot over the years. My ancestor Walter bought it in 1930, it last changed hands on 8.3.1993.
If you would like the names of the current owners please pm me.
-
Best to remove those names Girl Guide............
How recently was that Title searched?
Minniehaha. :)
-
Feeling a bit dimwitted tonight Minnie, not sure what you mean.
Do you mean there could be a later document with more up to date information for this piece of land?
-
I do......
If that search was done not so recently, there is every chance the property has changed hands since those 1993 owners.
I took down the names before you deleted them. :)
Minniehaha.
-
Hello,
25 Tahi Terrace is not in the names you have on your copy of the Certificate of Title.
PM sent.......
Minniehaha.
-
Read reply #54.
Alan.
To be fair Alan,there is an awful lot on this thread now and it is rather hard to follow,I suspect that Girl Guide now has all the information she needs about the street/road/terrace :D :D :D
Cheers Janette
-
Sorry if offence was taken, it was not intended. I was rushed, and I too had just made the mistake of not looking back a couple of posts to see that Girl Guide had obtained a certificate of title naming W ENGLAND, and transactions of that land to more recent times.
Girl Guide and I have been exchanging additional material privately, since near the beginning of this thread.
In a private exchange just cleared, as I've come in for lunch, she indicates her family W. ENGLAND research in NZ is almost complete, and she now has contacts she can re-approach should she decide she needs more clarification in any specific area.
She is very grateful for all the help given as she had no previous knowledge of Auckland life and times, of that period.
- Alan.
-
No offence taken at all Alan. It was very kind of you to offer so much information.
I am just trying to establish what plot 25 in Walter's day is in today's Tahi Terrace. When I have found that out I can have a look on google's street view to see the house in question.
After that I can call it a day and mark the topic as completed.
-
I posted a photo above of the house I suspect it the right one
Cheers Janette
-
Umm, can't actually see anything Janette. Is it hiding somewhere?
-
It is at #59
It is classed as a bungalow styled house which was right for the time you are looking at
Cheers Janette
-
Oh I see! I thought you meant that you had just posted a photo. You were in fact referring to an earlier post on which you had put a photo.
It certainly isn't the one I was looking at then.
Google street view is quite good in its way but it's not the same as actually being in the street where you can get up closer to the property in question.
Off to bed now, catch up with everyone again later today.
-
Hi Girl Guide,
All is now very clear......
Have confirmed through the Land Transfer records that:
No. 25 Tahi Terrace definitely sits on Lot 25.
In 2005, the property passed out of the hands of the people who purchased it in 1993. There have been other owners since then.
Minniehaha.
-
That confirmed, I will visit with my camera, the next time I'm up at Glendene visiting my relative. Possibly in two weeks time. When I have photos I will email them direct to you.
Bye for now.
Alan.
-
Hi Minnie & Alan
That's good to hear. That would suggest that the council followed the plot numbers when numbering the houses. If I recall correctly there were 37 plots so there should be houses numbered from 1 to 37.
Just checked the plots map again - 1 to 4 front on to Croydon Road which is now Rua Road, then 5 to 37 go consecutively up one side and down the other of Liverpool Street now Tahi Terrace.
I shall look forward to receiving the photo in due course Alan. Many thanks for taking the trouble to take a photo for me.
-
Hi Girl Guide,
No,the council didn't follow the plot numbers at all it is just a coincidence that number 25 fell on lot 25,if you look on Google Map looking down Tahi Terrace from Rua Road the even numbers are on the left hand side and the odd numbers are on the right hand side most NZ streets are numbered in this way,another odd colonial idea ;D ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
-
Okay fair enough Janette.
As I was saying earlier, Google street view is good in its way but you really need to be physically on the street to be quite sure of what you are looking at.
Long distance research is not the easiest of tasks! However I am really grateful for all the help everyone has been giving me. I would never have found out so much without your help.
-
Re address numbering.
This link takes you to an explanation about the evolution of street numbering and how it has evolved in many countries, and why there are so many exceptions.
As can be seen from this threads discussion, there were many hamlets and smaller boroughs, where it was not seen as necessary to give a street number in correspondence, nor in addresses published in newspapers, until the housing or business in a given area intensified.
The NZ adoption of the RAPID system of numbering of rural / country properties was not introduced until emergency call centres were consolidated into a very limited number throughout the greater REGIONS. In my case I have four fire brigade stations within ten/ twelve miles of us and three Ambulance stations manned 27/4 yet when I make an emergency, call it is now answered over 100 km away, and if they are busy it is answered 600 km away. Every chance then that any local knowledge the operator has, is what pops up on their computer screen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_numbering
- Alan.
-
The NZ adoption of the RAPID system of numbering of rural / country properties was not introduced until emergency call centres were consolidated into a very limited number throughout the greater REGIONS. In my case I have four fire brigade stations within ten/ twelve miles of us and three Ambulance stations manned 27/4 yet when I make an emergency, call it is now answered over 100 km away, and if they are busy it is answered 600 km away. Every chance then that any local knowledge the operator has, is what pops up on their computer screen.
- Alan.
Just to add a little bit to the above, before the RAPID numbering came in, and if there was an accident near our place, we would tell the operator to tell our Fire Brigade/Police that it was outside our place, as they knew us, as you do when you are Rural. So when the RAPID numbering came in, and say our number was 181, that meant we were 1.81 k's from the beginning of the road.
Cheers
KHP
-
Yes KHP, at the risk of running away with Girl guide's thread. As you possibly know I'm on land which my family came to in 1905, and the mail had always got through. with just a road name. However in more recent times, even with the RAPID system of numbering road egresses, our local phone exchange bore the name of the community we live in, the postal service was from the closest railway stop, yet demographically, there were about four properties on our side of a meandering road [historically following the high, dryer land to navigate] that were dumped in with all the residents of the opposite side of the long arterial road. So for voting purposes, in local body elections, and some times National Electorates, we had to by-pass the local polling booth and travel miles to "our" electorates nearest polling booth. Also adding to the confusion, historically dairy farm shareholder suppliers were issued a supply number [displayed at farm gate] that was often quoted to tradesmen and carriers. With competing dairy companies there appeared to be no logic in numbers displayed as you drove down a rural road.
Now days dial 111 [our emergency service] tell them the rapid number and road name, and they whish to confirm you are a resident of XXX village or area. Your first reaction is to want to scream WE ARE NOT, thinking they are looking at a similar sounding area in the South Island. I got quite frustrated with the service operator 100 km away, quite recently, when a daughter knocked herself out on an item of farm machinery.
Cheers.
-
Because this thread is now so long, I am not sure if this particular piece of information has already been mentioned.
Auckland Council has a website where you can view streets and houses with their numbers back to 1940.
Girl Guide, you may be interested to see what the area looked like back then.
Known as Auckland Council GIS Viewer, it can be found here......
http://maps.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/aucklandcouncilviewer/
Enter 25 Tahi Terrace when searching.
Minniehaha.
-
Thank you Minnehaha.
It has not been mentioned previously, and had I known about the availability of this service online to joe public, it would have saved several pages of guess work on my part, trying to trace the development of Liverpool Street through to it's renaming as Tahi Terrace. Plus other West Auckland properties.
Having access to this from my home, will help with other pioneering heritage projects I have on the go, re our early greater Auckland forebears.
Flat out catching up with farm chores in the hope that I will soon be able to return to West Auckland with my camera, and get some close up shots of what a 1920's NZ wooden home looked like. From Girl Guides comments, she is only accustomed to UK domestic housing constructed with more solid building materials.
Thanks.
- Alan.
-
I only found out about the website yesterday. Pleased you can put it to good use Alan........
Minniehaha.
-
Hi Minnie
Thanks for the link to the maps. I did have a go on it but got lost in the mire of how to use it. Never got anywhere near the 1940 date that you mentioned.
Ho hum....the delights of middle age!
-
Back to reply # 84.......
1.Open GIS viewer.
2.Accept terms.
3.Enter address, box top right.
4.Go to the vertical slider to the left top of the screen to magnify.
5.Go to tools (top left, 3rd from left, block shape), to choose Historical Aerial Photography.
6.Use slider bottom right of screen for the years; 2010 to 1940.
Fingers crossed. :)
Minniehaha.
-
Thanks for that Minnie, I've got somewhere now. Certainly different in 1940 to present day. A pity that the higher up the magnification scale you go the focus gets blurred instead of sharper. But never mind I'm looking at Walter's house as it was just two years after he died. His widow would still be living there as she didn't die until 1944.
-
Hi all
I'm sure someone on here mentioned taking a photo of Walter's house for me. Whoever it was, any idea when I can expect to see this photo?
Many thanks to whomever it was.
Once it has appeared I can do something about indicating the thread is completed.
-
Patience Girl Guide. We are volunteers and often have to work around busy lives.
I'm sure the person who offered, has the matter in hand and will get back to you all in good time.
Minniehaha. :)
-
Patience Girl Guide. We are volunteers and often have to work around busy lives.
Minniehaha. :)
Fresh fields is a farmer, like myself, and farm work comes first before anything else, but as Alan said in Reply # 85 he will get around to it.
Cheers
KHP
-
Goodness me, ??? there is a good view of the house on Google if you need it that urgently,I believe I put it on the thread earlier on #59
Alan doesn't even live in Auckland and was going out of his way to get a photo for you.
A lot of us have spent hours obtaining information and photos for you.
I would not feel comfortable if I saw someone outside my house taking photos,I would probably call the police which is why I haven't gone to take a photo of 25 Tahi Terrace and put the Google photo up instead.
As Minniehaha said we are all volunteers and have other obligations first and foremost,
Janette
-
Hi all.
Commitments at home have put me in a position where I have not yet been able to make the 250km trip. I have a relative in West Auckland whom I want to catch up with again, but this weekend he wanted to travel down to the Waikato Town of Paeroa, to see their Highland Games, and I found myself helping out at a local weekend market with some 70+ stalls.
When I get up to West Auckland, I will try to make contact with the current residents. and see what is able to be arranged. We are going through a very dry spell at the moment. Really need rain, so I can not afford to leave the farm and it's animals for a few days, WITHOUT having another family member being able to cover for me.
You will be the first to know if I'm able to get some photos for you.
- Alan.
-
Hi all
Thanks for all your responses. I couldn't quite remember who was going to take the photo! That's the trouble with threads that get a bit on the long side.
I do appreciate that you all have busy lives outside of Rootschat and am quite willing to wait. After all the house isn't going to disappear in a puff of smoke!
Sorry to hear that you are having a very dry spell. Must get quite worrying when you have livestock to look after.
-
Sorry to hear that you are having a very dry spell. Must get quite worrying when you have livestock to look after.
Yes, it is, but we also rely on the rain to fill our tanks for household water.
Cheers
KHP
-
Hello.
Finally got back to Auckland, and got permission from a resident to take a couple of photos of the front of the house, that were not obscured by the high white wooden fence. Person who gave permission, possibly a resident and not the property owner, so will PM the photos direct to Girl Guide.
- Alan
-
Hi all
Alan has now sent me an up to date photo of Walter's house.
I have said to him that he is welcome to put the photo on here. I shall wait to see what he wishes to do and then close the thread.
My final remarks will be made then.
-
Hello Girl Guide,
I am so pleased you now have the photo,we don't really need another one on the thread (there is already on on #59 if you look back)as it is more for your personal file,maybe you could give us your final remarks now and Spades can put this thread to bed,
Cheers Janette
-
All done and dusted now. Alan has replied re the photo.
Many thanks to all who have helped with this, especially Alan. I'm really grateful for this as trying to do family history from afar can be somewhat problematic!
I will close the thread tomorrow UK time.
:) :) :D :D :-* :-*