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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Rosinish on Saturday 09 January 16 00:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi folks,
My 3 x g g/parents
James Hogg c1811 married Ann Robinson 1834 in Tynemouth, NBL
1841 they are in Market Square, Fetteresso, Kincardine, Scotland where they had 2 children John c1836 & David Morris c1840
1841, James is a Draper.
1851, Ann at Ellison Sq, Gateshead, Durham, a Teacher & a widow
1861, at Shop (sic), High St, Gateshead, a Provision Dealer
I believe the dates for their deaths to be;
James (1844) Gateshead
Ann (1887) Gateshead
However, I ordered wrong cert. for James so meanwhile I am hoping someone can do some newspaper look-ups for any obituaries & anything regarding their occupations in those areas at dates stated please.
I would love to know what Ann taught ???
Annie
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Hi Annie :)
Someone else is claiming this family and showing them in England for 1841:
James Hogg 40 bookseller
Ann Hogg 40
Joseph Hogg 18
Martha Hogg 12
James Hogg 10
All showing on this as born in the County. Entry showing in Holbeck area, Leeds, Yorkshire
The James Jnr above looks to have gone on to marry a Martha Duncan. She shows as a school mistress in 1851, just married and with her Duncan family. James Jnr and young family living in Durham by 1861.
James Snr and wife Ann Robinson married in 17 Jul 1823 in Leeds, in front of witnesses. James showed as a Cloth Draper.
Annie, is the the family?
What is the 1841 census entry that you have in Kincardineshire? Which line is yours from their children?
Monica
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Annie that family just likely a co-incidence :-\
Just found James Snr in 1851, a widower, with son Joseph and daughter Martha with him. James Snr still a book seller.
Monica
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This is the 1851 entry in full
HO 107 / 2402 / 209 / 18
Ellison Sq, Gateshead
Ann Hogg, head, widow, 34, Teacher, Durham Gateshead
Murrice Hog, son, 9, at school, Scotland NK
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I believe the dates for their deaths to be;
James (1844) Gateshead
Ann (1887) Gateshead
The free index to Durham Records Online indicates that the James who died in 1844 was only 5 years old. http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php
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That makes more sense from Annie's info above.
Just for background, the family's 1841 census in Fetteresso:
James Hagg 30 draper
Ann Hagg 20 b. England
John Hagg 4
David Hagg 4 Months
Margaret Anderson 15, servant
Address: Market Square, Fetteresso
Monica
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I believe the dates for their deaths to be;
James (1844) Gateshead
Ann (1887) Gateshead
freeBMD only shows two deaths in 1887 in Gateshead R.D. for people named Ann Hogg, and in both cases shows them to be children under the age of 1.
Far more likely is the death in the 2nd quarter of 1889, Ann Hogg aged 72.
The free index to Durham Records Online gives the abode at time of death as 24 Ellison Street, Gateshead.
A search of the 1891 census shows the occupant of that address to be David Morris Hogg born Scotland in 1841. This surely has to be Ann's son.
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Hi
Just in case you have not seen it the marriage of James Hogg and Ann Robinson in Tynemouth 14 May 1834 is image 569 in the Bishop of Durham Transcripts for that parish. Marriage was by banns and they are both said to be of that parish Witnesses were Eleanor Robinson and George Old .
William
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Is it not possible that James died in Scotland and then Ann returned to live in Gateshead?
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My thoughts exactly, JenB. 1841 Census shows that James, like the children, was born in Kincardineshire and as Ann born in England would make far more sense that he died there and she then returned home to Gateshead.
Annette
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1861, at Shop (sic), High St, Gateshead, a Provision Dealer
Just adding in that she is also a provision dealer in Gateshead High Street in 1871.
In this census her son's name is written on the original page as Marricuce Hogg :D
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Hi JenB, have been looking for James Hogg (with wildcards for spelling variations) in the Old Parish Registers there. Death year pre the start of official registration in Scotland, if he died there. Couldn't easily see anything for him so far, but the OPRs are so patchy at this time, particularly for deaths & burials, the least well recorded of all :-\
Great leads there to a possible death for wife Ann Robinson, later in 1889 :)
William, from the parish entry for the marriage, wonder how the Eleanor Robinson connects...maybe a clue to Ann's family members. From your ref to witnesses, and a George Old, there is a George Old 40, a victualler (I think) and his wife Margaret living at Duke Street Tynemouth in 1841, a possible for him.
Monica
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Thanks folks for interest & help.
I know I have the correct family re Kincardine etc.
1861, at Shop (sic), High St, Gateshead, a Provision Dealer
Just adding in that she is also a provision dealer in Gateshead High Street in 1871.
In this census her son's name is written on the original page as Marricuce Hogg :D
If it helps for newspaper info. the address is 163 High St, Gateshead.
David Morris (variants) was a Joiner.
Is it not possible that James died in Scotland and then Ann returned to live in Gateshead?
Yes Jen,
It's looking like that but like Monica, I couldn't find him & that's the problem as I don't know where he died?
Far more likely is the death in the 2nd quarter of 1889, Ann Hogg aged 72.
Thanks Jen,
That looks another definite too, address ties in below.
The free index to Durham Records Online gives the abode at time of death as 24 Ellison Street, Gateshead.
A search of the 1891 census shows the occupant of that address to be David Morris Hogg born Scotland in 1841. This surely has to be Ann's son.
[/quote]
Yes, this is my family but I would be interested in newspaper articles regarding obituaries &/or things relating to their occupations.
The free index to Durham Records Online indicates that the James who died in 1844 was only 5 years old. http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php
[/quote]
Jen,
That's the DC I have which was wrong as I was looking for James Hogg death 1841 - 1851.
However, this may well turn out to be a relative & for the purpose of anyone looking for "Hogg" info.....
Poor wee James Hogg d 01 Feb 1844 aged 5yrs, Felling, Heworth, Gateshead
Parents John Hogg (Mason) & wife Margaret.
Hi
Just in case you have not seen it the marriage of James Hogg and Ann Robinson in Tynemouth 14 May 1834 is image 569 in the Bishop of Durham Transcripts for that parish. Marriage was by banns and they are both said to be of that parish Witnesses were Eleanor Robinson and George Old .
William
Thanks William, the name Eleanor features in my 2 x g g/father David Morris' kids names.
He & wife Mary Margaret Duff had 8 kids.
1st born Mary Ann 1861 Aft MIL Mary & his mother Ann?
2nd born Eleanor Robinson 1863
Can add more if anyone has an interest or potential connection.
Annie
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Great leads there to a possible death for wife Ann Robinson, later in 1889 :)
William, from the parish entry for the marriage, wonder how the Eleanor Robinson connects...maybe a clue to Ann's family members. From your ref to witnesses, and a George Old, there is a George Old 40, a victualler (I think) and his wife Margaret living at Duke Street Tynemouth in 1841, a possible for him.
Monica
Thanks folks,
The death for Ann 1889 looks definite as everything ties in.....name, address & son David Morris.
I wonder if Eleanor was Ann's mother?
I have a note in my tree where I found a Thomas Robinson on 1851 in Gateshead (Silversmith).
I probably found it on Ancestry when I had a sub? I can't see it on freecen but I assume he must have been a widower as I have a ? next to him but no name for a wife.
This is the names of children to David & wife Mary Margaret Duff (all b Durham)
Mary Ann 1861 - (M M's mother was Mary/David's mother Ann)
Eleanor Robinson 1863 - (could this be David's g/mother with mother's m/s)?
Wilhelmina 1865 - (MM's father was William)
Thomas 1867 - (could this be David's g/father)?
John William c1872 - (MM's g/father was John & her father was William)
James Jeffrey 1873 - (David's father James but yet to find the name Jeffrey)?
Margaret Allen1876 - (MM's g/mother Margaret & her mother's m/s Allan)
Harold Jeffrey 1879 - (have found no link with either name yet)?
Annie
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I have a note in my tree where I found a Thomas Robinson on 1851 in Gateshead (Silversmith).
HO 107 / 2404 / 716 / 2
Oakwellgate Chare, Gateshead
Thomas Robinson, head, widower, 73, silver smith, Durham Gateshead
John Hogg, grandson, 14, shop boy, Scotland, Stonehaven
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1841 census
HO 107 / 296 / 18 / 3 / 1
Oakwellgate Chare, Gateshead
Thomas Robinson, 60, silver smith Y
Eleanor do, 60 Y
John Robinson 25 ? Cabinetm[aker] J[ourneyman] Y
Isabella do, 20 Y
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Worth considering? date a bit early :-\
Baptism Gateshead St Mary, 27 June 1813, Ann daughter of Thomas Robinson and and Eleanor Mills, of Gateshead, father's occupation silversmith.
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1841 census
HO 107 / 296 / 18 / 3 / 1
Oakwellgate Chare, Gateshead
Thomas Robinson, 60, silver smith Y
Eleanor do, 60 Y
John Robinson 25 ? Cabinetm[aker] J[ourneyman] Y
Isabella do, 20 Y
Thanks Jen,
That looks to be my thought with Eleanor being Ann's mother.
I have a note in my tree where I found a Thomas Robinson on 1851 in Gateshead (Silversmith).
HO 107 / 2404 / 716 / 2
Oakwellgate Chare, Gateshead
Thomas Robinson, head, widower, 73, silver smith, Durham Gateshead
John Hogg, grandson, 14, shop boy, Scotland, Stonehaven
That's the one I found...so he was a widower.
Sometimes I write things, thinking I will remember.
I found g/son John (David's brother) on 1861 as a Watchmaker.
He married Ann Murray 1858.
I need to find what the name of the local paper was in Fetteresso, Stonehaven to see if there was an obit for James.
I have no idea who his parents were. 1st son John could be a clue but the name David was not popular so don't know where that originated as there is no other David throughout the line nor the name Morris?
Annie
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Worth considering? date a bit early :-\
Baptism Gateshead St Mary, 27 June 1813, Ann daughter of Thomas Robinson and and Eleanor Mills, of Gateshead, father's occupation silversmith.
Jen,
That does look good & as Ann's hubby James was b c1811 this would work out as census records can be out quite a bit & also father's occ. fits well.
Pity with all the middle names, none were Mills which would have been a good indicator.
I have a feeling there may have been births/stillbirths/miscarriages between David's son Thomas 1867 & next born John William c1872 (from census)?
Annie
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Hi
The couple which Jen B found, Thomas Robinson and Eleanor Mills had a number of other children:
Jane christened 1 Aug 1802
Mary 26 Feb 1804
Margaret 25 Dec 1805
Eleanor 30 Sept 1810
All the above are on the bt's and name Thomas Robinson as a silversmith and Eleanor Mills as the daughter of Thomas Mills of Lowick, Northumberland.
Also
John 14 Dec 1815
Isabella 10 Sept 1820. Mother's surname not given but father Thomas Robinson is a silver smith and names do fit with the 1841 census.
William
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Just did a speculative google search for Thomas Robinson, silversmith, Gateshead and found the following
... was the son of Thomas Robinson - a Gateshead blacksmith He was apprenticed to Robert Scott II for seven years from 6 Aug 1791. Robert Scott died 1893 and Thomas continued his training under Thomas Walton and upon completion of his term is thought to have continued as a journeyman for Walton until setting up business on his own account at Oakwellgate, High Street. Gateshead in 1826.
Although Thomas Robinsons career on his own account was fairly long at twenty years (1826 - 1846), he only had 1400 ounces assayed during that period
He died 1 June 1853 at Oakwellgate aged 77. He served as warden to the Newcastle company on two occasions 1833/34 and 1842/ 43.
The above is from a silver forum which is the first "hit" if you do the google search for him - there are also lovely photos of his work.
William
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Thanks William,
A lot of info. from you & Jen.
Good reading/info. there.....interesting!!!
I hadn't started researching back from James & Ann as I have been searching for James' death for many yrs.
Put on the back burner until now as there is so much more regarding newspapers to be had online.
I wouldn't doubt that this is the correct Robinson family.
Worth considering? date a bit early :-\
Baptism Gateshead St Mary, 27 June 1813, Ann daughter of Thomas Robinson and and Eleanor Mills, of Gateshead, father's occupation silversmith.
Jen,
Do you have a source for this please?
Annie
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Annie, your old post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=647483.0 I think might help in terms of names maybe...
Do you know what happened to eldest son, brother to David Morris, John Hogg who married Mary Murray?
Notice from the list on the old post something in this name...
David:
1st Mary Ann (her mother & M g/mother were Mary & P g/mother ANN ROBINSON)
2nd Ellen Robson (Ellen is a mystery at the moment but ROBSON may be contender MARY ROBSON)?
3rd Wilhelmina (her M g/dad was William & P gg/dad WILLIAM ROBSON)
4th John William (his P gg/dad may have been John Hogg & M g/dad was William)
5th Thomas (P gg/dad was THOMAS ROBINSON)
6th James JEFFREY (P g/dad James but Jeffrey a mystery at the moment although interesting as the name JEFFREY has surfaced twice within the siblings)?
7th Margaret Allen (mother’s mid name Margaret & Allen M g/mother’s maiden name)
8th (& last) HAROLD JEFFREY (have never found a connection with either name to date)
Could the second born to David above be the Eleanor Robinson we are discussing? Robson/Robinson, Ellen/Eleanor....as we know, all in the variants ;)
Monica
Added: Let's also remember she could be a sister or some other relation too...
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William,
Pity I can't claim to have been "born with a silver spoon in my mouth" ;D
Such a coincidence too with surname Scott as my aunt recalls a relative of my grandmother by same surname. I wonder if this woman was descended from the same family ???
Annie
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Annie, your old post here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=647483.0 I think might help in terms of names maybe...
Do you know what happened to eldest son, brother to David Morris, John Hogg who married Mary Murray?
Notice from the list on the old post something in this name...
David:
1st Mary Ann (her mother & M g/mother were Mary & P g/mother ANN ROBINSON)
2nd Ellen Robson (Ellen is a mystery at the moment but ROBSON may be contender MARY ROBSON)?
3rd Wilhelmina (her M g/dad was William & P gg/dad WILLIAM ROBSON)
4th John William (his P gg/dad may have been John Hogg & M g/dad was William)
5th Thomas (P gg/dad was THOMAS ROBINSON)
6th James JEFFREY (P g/dad James but Jeffrey a mystery at the moment although interesting as the name JEFFREY has surfaced twice within the siblings)?
7th Margaret Allen (mother’s mid name Margaret & Allen M g/mother’s maiden name)
8th (& last) HAROLD JEFFREY (have never found a connection with either name to date)
Could the second born to David above be the Eleanor Robinson we are discussing? Robson/Robinson, Ellen/Eleanor....as we know, all in the variants ;)
Monica
Added: Let's also remember she could be a sister or some other relation too...
Monica,
Things have deviated from my original request for an obituary for James (or Ann)
Eleanor in this thread is who I thought to be Ann Robinson's mother & is looking to be just that.
David's daughter Eleanor Robinson has variations of name on census such as Ellen Robson but I know who she is ;D
David's brother John........was in contact with a woman at the beginning of the year who sent me her email address & when all my emails were deleted....I lost it.
As I'm back on the trail for this family, I will need to try & find where this woman 1st got in contact.
It seems not RC (I've checked my messages) so possibly Ancestry which I need to search.
She is descended from John.
Tbh, for the moment I would love confirmation of where/when James died?
I would also like to find out who his parents were.
Going by 1841 census he was b Kincardine.
Annie
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Annie, speed reading has many benefits doesn't it...except when you miss chunks of info! Just reread last few pages and seen JenB's 1851 census entry with grandson John Hogg with grandparents, Thomas and Eleanor Robinson :D Great result for sure!
As you say though, original quest for James Hogg's roots (father John ) continues... Can I ask, from the marriage of James Hogg to Ann Robinson, was father showing as John? Any occupation?
Monica
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Monica,
I don't have the actual marriage for James & Ann.
It is on genuki.cs.ncl & from the info. from my contact a yr ago.
I have not been able to locate it online to send for it
I have just looked on Ancestry but it's not through that where the woman contacted me.
Could kick myself for not adding the email address at the time as I don't know where she contacted me from but it was definitely via an email notification from a site.
I have the 1851 census info. for John but at the time of my old post I wasn't too sure if this was my John.
I haven't researched that line, just the info. from the contact who is a descendant.
Annie
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You can access the marriage of James Hogg and Ann Robinson through Family Search and the Bishop of Durham' s transcripts (image 569 for Tynemouth). Unfortunately there are no parents names given- only the bride and groom and witnesses as well as the vicar.
All the baptisms for Robinson children quoted above are also on the Bishops Transcripts, which if you have not used before are browse only and so you have to adjust the image numbers to get to the correct year. I located them earlier but now find the viewer is down(well not working for me!)
There also transcripts of these baptisms on freereg.
Have had a go at trying to locate James Hogg's death in the newspaper archive but unable to see anything. Also tried Scottish wills and the North East Inheritance database but does not appear to be a will for him ( Thomas Robinson does not seem to have left a will either). Might MI's be worth looking for?
William
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Hi William,
Thanks for tip on looking up marriage.
I only just discovered through Jen on Sunday when/where Ann Hogg (Robinson) died....I only know I last saw her on 1881 census.
Possibly a MI would exist for Ann which may shed some light on hubby James?
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Worth considering? date a bit early :-\
Baptism Gateshead St Mary, 27 June 1813, Ann daughter of Thomas Robinson and and Eleanor Mills, of Gateshead, father's occupation silversmith.
Jen,
Do you have a source for this please?
Annie
Easily found initally on Family Search https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJYZ-HF2
This gave me a date which I then found in the excellent Durham Bishops Trancripts
These confirmed the father's occupation but also gave the mother's maiden name (a little unusual in post-1812 baptisms). It also gives the date of birth http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gu4/ (bottom of l-h page)
In reply #19 William referred you to earlier baptisms of children of the same couple, these are Barrington era baptisms so will also give the native parishes of the parents.
As you say though, original quest for James Hogg's roots (father John ) continues... Can I ask, from the marriage of James Hogg to Ann Robinson, was father showing as John? Any occupation?
Sadly pre-1837 marriage records don't show the name of the father and only rarely show occupation. Here is the marriage, again from the Bishops Transcripts (as referred to earlier by William in reply #27) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gu6/
The Bishops Transcripts for the Diocese of Durham are a wonderful resource. However they are not complete either in respect of Parishes or years covered. Additionally they are not searchable by keyword and must be trawled through page by page. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a2p/
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Thanks Jen,
The info. for marriage of James & Ann is only by good circumstantial evidence by which Williams find on parents is good. Thank goodness for traditional naming patterns ;D
Neither of James & Ann's kids were baptised so had to rely on son David's naming of his kids.
Annie
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Just a thought. The children may have been baptised - simply not in the Church of Scotland but in the Episcopal Church of Scotland or in another non conformist church.
William
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Just a brief sideline regarding John Hogg, son of James and Ann (Robinson). You mentioned he married an Ann Murray.
JenB had found him with Robinson grandparents in 1851 above.
His marriage to Ann Murray likely 2nd Qrt 1858 in Gateshead/S. Shields - 10a/ 668.
1861 census I thought here, in Gateshead:
John Hogg 24 watchmaker b. Scotland
Ann Hogg 22 b. Gateshead, Durham
John Thomas Hogg 1 b. Gateshead, Durham - maybe? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26TD-LTQ
Robert Derry 30 brother in law furnace man b. Canterbury, Kent
Eleanor Derry 27 sister in law b. Gateshead, Durham
Robert Derry 2 nephew b. b. S. Shields
Likelyhood that John Hogg died young? One possible death for a 33 yr old John Hogg in Gateshead in 1st Qrt 1870, 10a/429
I thought Ann Robinson may have remarried. There is a marriage in 4th Qrt 1870 in Gateshead between an Ann Hogg and a George Douglass Talintyre ref 10a/1068.
1871 for the family:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB8Q-7VT
A gap there for Hogg children from first marriage. Some of the children died young? There was an Annie Robinson Hogg born in Gateshead in 1867 for example (not sure where David was living at this time, could be one of his children too?).
So these children of John's were with their grandmother in 1881? I think because Ann Murray/Hogg may also have died young, from a possible remarriage for George Douglass Talintyre in the late 1870s - www.myheritage.com/names/george_talintyre
You have this census already:
Dwelling : Nk High Listers Yard, Gateshead, Durham.
Ann HOGG, head, annuitant, widowed, age 64, born Gateshead, Durham.
John Thomas HOGG, grandson, watchmaker, age 21, born Gateshead.
Mary Ann HOGG, grand daur, age 19, born Gateshead. (John or David's child?)
James HOGG, grand son, age 12, born Gateshead.
Annie, if the right death for John Hogg in 1870, he also seems to have been called John Thomas Hogg, the name he gave his first born son. I wonder if this middle name could help re the Hogg line :-\
What were the names of David's children in order?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Have highlighted the bits.........(working from 2 computers & no info. on this one so having to check other) ::)
Just a brief sideline regarding John Hogg, son of James and Ann (Robinson). You mentioned he married an Ann Murray.
JenB had found him with Robinson grandparents in 1851 above.
His marriage to Ann Murray likely 2nd Qrt 1858 in Gateshead/S. Shields - 10a/ 668.
1861 census I thought here, in Gateshead:
John Hogg 24 watchmaker b. Scotland
Ann Hogg 22 b. Gateshead, Durham
John Thomas Hogg 1 b. Gateshead, Durham - maybe? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:26TD-LTQ (Can't access link but address I have for 1861 is Prospect Terr & birth for J T 1860)
Robert Derry 30 brother in law furnace man b. Canterbury, Kent
Eleanor Derry 27 sister in law b. Gateshead, Durham
Robert Derry 2 nephew b. b. S. Shields
Above given as in-laws so must be his wife's line
David (john's brother) was my direct ancestor)
Likelyhood that John Hogg died young? One possible death for a 33 yr old John Hogg in Gateshead in 1st Qrt 1870, 10a/429 (Ah, yes....looks like a possibility)?
I thought Ann Robinson may have remarried. There is a marriage in 4th Qrt 1870 in Gateshead between an Ann Hogg and a George Douglass Talintyre ref 10a/1068.
1871 for the family:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB8Q-7VT (Can't acces link)?
A gap there for Hogg children from first marriage. Some of the children died young? There was an Annie Robinson Hogg born in Gateshead in 1867 for example (not sure where David was living at this time, could be one of his children too?). I have a "possible" daughter for John & Ann Murray, Annie Robinson b 1863)?
David had a son Thomas b 1867 d possibly 1902 may have been a twin)?
So these children of John's were with their grandmother in 1881? I think because Ann Murray/Hogg may also have died young, from a possible remarriage for George Douglass Talintyre in the late 1870s - www.myheritage.com/names/george_talintyre
You have this census already:
Dwelling : Nk High Listers Yard, Gateshead, Durham.
Ann HOGG, head, annuitant, widowed, age 64, born Gateshead, Durham.
John Thomas HOGG, grandson, watchmaker, age 21, born Gateshead.
Mary Ann HOGG, grand daur, age 19, born Gateshead. (John or David's child?) - David's dau
James HOGG, grand son, age 12, born Gateshead. (John's son)
Annie, if the right death for John Hogg in 1870, he also seems to have been called John Thomas Hogg, the name he gave his first born son. I wonder if this middle name could help re the Hogg line :-\
What were the names of David's children in order?
This is the names of children to David & wife Mary Margaret Duff (all b Durham)
Mary Ann 1861 - (M M's mother was Mary/David's mother Ann)
Eleanor Robinson 1863 - (could this be David's g/mother with mother's m/s)?
Wilhelmina 1865 - (MM's father was William)
Thomas 1867 - (could this be David's g/father)?
Gap here :-\
John William c1872 - (MM's g/father was John & her father was William)
James Jeffrey 1873 - (David's father James but yet to find the name Jeffrey)?
Margaret Allen1876 - (MM's g/mother Margaret & her mother's m/s Allan)
Harold Jeffrey 1879 - (have found no link with either name yet)?
Annie
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Dwelling : Nk High Listers Yard, Gateshead, Durham.
Ann HOGG, head, annuitant, widowed, age 64, born Gateshead, Durham.
John Thomas HOGG, grandson, watchmaker, age 21, born Gateshead.
Mary Ann HOGG, grand daur, age 19, born Gateshead. (John or David's child?) - David's dau
James HOGG, grand son, age 12, born Gateshead. (John's son)
:-\ I haven't researched much on John (c1836) but while with mother on census...no middle name so that death 1870 could be John's son age 10ish)?
John born 1837, I think is likely the death in 1870 in Gateshead. His son John Thomas is the one showing in 1881 living with his grandmother Annie Robison Hogg. Like his father, he seems to also be showing as a watchmaker. We know that James was born c. 1869, then the death we are talking about, then the remarriage for Ann Murray/Hogg.....etc...
I wanted to look at son John born 1837 to see whether any further clues showed re his father James. Sadly, not seeing much more, other than a possible middle name of Thomas that might be important...but then again....John Thomas could be named after James' father, John and also Ann Robinson's father, Thomas...
Always good to look at other options, don't think son John Thomas b. 1837 will help much with the Scottish roots sadly :-\
Monica
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Re John Hogg a search on Durham Records Online shows a record in their cemetery records for a John Hogg born 1837 died 1870 address 131 High Street. Family search has burial25 Jan 1870 - also has burial for Ann Talintyre 26 Jan 1874.
Durham records online gives death of Annie Robinson Hogg in 1867 address 26 Wylam Street.(very useful site for co. Durham records, ladies).
William
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William, you know Annie and me of old ;) Scottish research is our stomping ground. Great to have you and JenB on board with your experience on records for Durham :)
Monica
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Some newspaper articles :
Aberdeen Journal, July 6 1836.
"JAMES HOGG. CLOTHIER, HATTER, and SILK MERCER.
Granite House, Market Square, Stonehaven.
Grateful for the very liberal patronage he continues to receive, most respectfully invites the attention of his friends and the public to his present stock of his SUPERFINE BROAD AND NARROW WOOLEN CLOTHS, CASSIMERES AND WAIST COATINGS, which are all bought at the best Markets, and he is determined to sell them at prices considerably lower than ever they were offered in Stonehaven.
Upwards of 20 dozen of WATERPROOF, STUFF, AND BEAVER HATS, from the most celebrated London Makers. A large lot of WATERPROOF SILK HATS, from 2s 10d.
An excellent assortment of FILLED SILK SHAWLS, plain and coloured GROS DE NAPLES ; PRINTS, MERINOS, RIBBONS, GLOVES ; TUSCAN, DUNSTABLE and BRIGHT STRAW BONNETS ; with every other article connected with the Trade at extremely low prices."
Then some Bankruptcy notices in English newspapers in October 1841, all under the heading of Scotch Sequestrations :
London Morning Post, Oct 16th 1841. "James Hogg, Stonehaven, Merchant, Oct 21 and Nov 18 at 12, within the writing chambers of Mr Kinnear, writer, Stonehaven."
Same details in the London Standard and The Era on Oct 16th and 17th.
Manchester Times, and also in the Sheffield and Rotherham Independant. Oct 23 1841. Same details except James is described as a Clothier, hearings held at the writing chambers of Arthur Wellesley Kinnear in Stonehaven.
National Records of Scotland website has indexes of Scottish bankrupts. Actual papers are available to view in Edinburgh.
CS280/18/7 James Hogg, Stonehaven, Kincardineshire. Merchant, Clothier, Silk Mercer. Start date: 11/10/1841, Disposal date: 19/09/1843, Disposal notes: Discharged.
I think that means he was declared bankrupt 11/10/1841 and the bankruptcy was cleared 19/09/1843.
Alan.
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Alan, great info :) With your leads, mention here in 1837 with the key word of clothier http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nescotland/articles/stonhiv3.htm
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Re John Hogg a search on Durham Records Online shows a record in their cemetery records for a John Hogg born 1837 died 1870 address 131 High Street. Family search has burial25 Jan 1870 - also has burial for Ann Talintyre 26 Jan 1874.
Durham records online gives death of Annie Robinson Hogg in 1867 address 26 Wylam Street.(very useful site for co. Durham records, ladies).
William
William,
That looks to be my John (High St).....clue
Can you tell me the age of Annie Robinson Hogg at death (if it's there)?
John's dau (who I believe) b 1863 so would be 4 yrs old in 1867.
Annie
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William, you know Annie and me of old ;) Scottish research is our stomping ground. Great to have you and JenB on board with your experience on records for Durham :)
Monica
For sure Monica,
I have Durham & Newcastle connections but yes it's great to have Jen & William on board as I don't have a "satnav" on my comp & my geo isn't great ;D
Annie
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Thanks Alan,
Very interesting indeed!
This virtually confirms things further although again (highly circumstantial) without further evidence of parents names etc. on marriage.
I had a feeling there would be something in the papers but not this so that's great.
So he must have died aft Sep 1843.
Pity an Obit hasn't surfaced :-[
Annie
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Can you tell me the age of Annie Robinson Hogg at death (if it's there)?
John's dau (who I believe) b 1863 so would be 4 yrs old in 1867
Although you must buy credits to see the full entry, the age at death should be shown on the free index search so why not give it a try yourself? It's an excellent site and well worth acquainting yourself with it. New records are being added all the time
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/index.php
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Alan, great info :) With your leads, mention here in 1837 with the key word of clothier http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nescotland/articles/stonhiv3.htm
Monica,
This is great from all.
I now have another address prior to Market Sq. too (on 1841 census)
I'm glad the research I've done has been correct as this is a big bonus on what I had with having to "piece" everything together without finding baptisms for sons John & David.
I now feel more secure with everything although as said previously "circumstantial" ;D
Annie
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Although you must buy credits to see the full entry, the age at death should be shown on the free index search so why not give it a try yourself? It's an excellent site and well worth acquainting yourself with it. New records are being added all the time
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/index.php
Thanks Jen,
Was on the phone & reading at same time & didn't realise it was the same site ::)
This seems the same Annie Robinson Hogg b 12 Mar 1863 as it has b abt 1864.
Annie
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Some newspaper articles :
Aberdeen Journal, July 6 1836.
"JAMES HOGG. CLOTHIER, HATTER, and SILK MERCER.
Granite House, Market Square, Stonehaven.
Then some Bankruptcy notices in English newspapers in October 1841, all under the heading of Scotch Sequestrations :
London Morning Post, Oct 16th 1841. "James Hogg, Stonehaven, Merchant, Oct 21 and Nov 18 at 12, within the writing chambers of Mr Kinnear, writer, Stonehaven."
Same details in the London Standard and The Era on Oct 16th and 17th.
Manchester Times, and also in the Sheffield and Rotherham Independant. Oct 23 1841. Same details except James is described as a Clothier, hearings held at the writing chambers of Arthur Wellesley Kinnear in Stonehaven.
Alan.
This is great Alan....thanks!!!
I wonder why his name made the English papers though?
Not expecting you to answer that ;D
Annie
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Bankruptcies were listed in the London/ Edinburgh Gazettes - I think newspapers picked them up from there. My ggg grandfather (from co Durham) was declared bankrupt in the late 1840's and the notices appeared in papers all over the country. The Gazettes have their own site which is free to search.
William
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His marriage to Ann Murray likely 2nd Qrt 1858 in Gateshead/S. Shields - 10a/ 668.
Just as a minor point, Gateshead and South Shields are quite separate Registration Districts so the marriage could only be registered in one of them. It was in fact registered in Gateshead RD in the 2nd quarter of 1858.
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I need to find what the name of the local paper was in Fetteresso, Stonehaven to see if there was an obit for James.
I have no idea who his parents were.
I don't think this has been mentioned in an earlier posting on this thread, apologies if it has.
An article here, dated 22 July 1842, relating to the bankruptcy, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/5134/page/289/data.pdf , , states that he '...offered his father, John Hogg, farmer at Biddrie, as his security...'
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Thanks Jen,
Good find........
Glad to see his father's name as John though & a place to search for him on census ;D
Annie
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1847 directory referring to John Hogg of Biddrie
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85464853&mode=transcription
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How about these from freecen?
1841 Biddrie, St Cyrus
John Hogg 50
Elisabeth 50
John 14
David 10
Jean 20
Helen 15
Margaret 12
Jessie 8
1851 Beddrie
John Hogg 59 farmer 125 acres b Garvock
Elisabeth w 59 b Garvock
David s 20 b Garvock
Margaret d 22 b Garvock
Jessie d19 b Garvock
Elisabeth Findley gd b Logie Pert, Angus
William
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JenB and William, wow. Annie will be thrilled with these connections for James Hogg and likely family. Great spot JenB re the John Hogg at Be(i)ddrie...opens up the doors really to family.
I think from FS that wife Elizabeth was Elizabeth Rae. Lots of children's births showing there for these parents in Garvock Kincardine, matching that 1851 census entry you posted, William.
A marriage here in 1811 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT55-N62 for them.
Checking again for James' age in 1841 where he showed as 30. So, if correct family, he either really was 30, or born before father's marriage to Elizabeth Rae in 1811?
Monica
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1861 shows John Hogg as a substantial farmer by now, with 450 acres. All the Hoggs showing as born in Garvock:
John Hogg 68 Farmer Of 450 Ac Employing (3 Labr & 1 Boy) b. Garvock Kincardine
Elizabeth Hogg 68
John Hogg 32
Margaret Hogg 29
John Lovie 72 servant
John Hogg Ford 11 grandson b. St Cyrus, Kincardine
Address: Biddrie Farm H(ouse?), St Cyrus, Kincardine
There has to be a will for John Hogg :-\
Monica
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There is a public tree on ancestry re the above John Hogg which would be worth looking at. It has his wife as Elisabeth Rae and his death at Logie Pert in 1871 (there is a possible will for him showing on Scotland's People).
From Family Search there is a baptism for James Hogg parents John Hogg and Elisabeth Rae 31 May 1812 Garvock ( with siblings Mary 1814, Elizabeth 1817,Anne 1819, Helen 1823, Jane 1821, Jessy Falconer 1832, John 1825 and David 1830).
William
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Family tree here on a/try http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3547560/person/6045311284/facts
They show both John Hogg and Elizabeth Rae dieing within months of each other in 1871. From these details, death for John Hogg reported by son John, his parents https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYN4-DJL
From the place of death showing on the tree (17 March 1871, Glen of Craigo, Logie Pert, Forfar), wondering whether this SP entry might be relevant?
John HOGG, 18/04/1871
Joint Tenant at GLEN OF CRAIGS
FORFAR SHERIFF COURT - ref SC47/40/38
5 pages.
Not clear (not given) what type of document it might be on the Wills & Testament database of SP.
Monica
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William, sorry :-\ Didn't get a red flash of a previous posting coming up...
Good to see we are seeing the same :)
Monica
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From Family Search there is a baptism for James Hogg parents John Hogg and Elisabeth Rae 31 May 1812 Garvock
Missed that in my flyby earlier ::) That is great, William. We have James in the family on record!
Monica
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Yes, Monica, we seem to be on the same page!
Marriage Garvock 20 March 1791 John Hogg and Mary Brichin (also note Elisabeth Hogg and Robert Findlay 3 March 1839 - parents of granddaughter in 1851 census?)
Baptism Garvock 15 Jan 1792 John Hogg parents John Hogg and Mary Brichan.
There is a John Hogg coming up in the 1841 census age 65 at South Braidieston . Also a will for John Hogg, farmer residing at Braidieston dated 21/5/1847 inventory, testament. Might not be the correct John Hogg but is worth considering.
William
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There are a number of notices in the Stonehaven Journal in 1865 re John Hogg :
The farm of Biddery, possessed by John Hogg, extending as at present, proposed to be Let, to about 180 acres, imperial measure of arable land, and about 25 acres of pasture, chiefly in Den Fenella".
An article in 1868 refers to a poaching case of John Ford... residing with John Hogg, farmer, Glen of Craigo.
William
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1871 census Glen of Craigo Farm House, Logie Pert, Forfarshire
Elisabeth Hogg widow 79 Farmer 85 acres b Garvock
Jane Hogg dau unm 46 serv domestic b Garvock
David Burnett serv 14 ag lab
Isabella Stewart serv 15 house servant
Margt Hogg Visitor mar 45 b Garvock
William
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Another candidate for granddaughter's parents
Montrose... and Kincardine Advertiser31July 1846 (this newspaper is in the Angus section, not Kincardineshire)
Married at Biddrie on 17th inst John Findlay, farmer Balmain to Helen daughter of John Hogg, farmer, Biddrie.
William
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How lucky for Annie that the Hoggs have turned out to be a farming family! Lots of info there to follow up on, William.
I think the reference that JenB found earlier, for father of James Hogg, John, acting as guarantor is likely to be our key verification in confirming James' family isn't it. Would be hard to make any connections without that piece of info really at this time, with what we have to date for him. I had him as the youngest son of a farmer, who wasn't going to inherit the farm! Turns out he was the eldest. Maybe a fall out (pure guess for sure ;)).
An article here, dated 22 July 1842, relating to the bankruptcy, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/5134/page/289/data.pdf , , states that he '...offered his father, John Hogg, farmer at Biddrie, as his security...'
Monica
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Well Honestly,
I can't believe the turn of events in a few hrs since Jen's post........
I don't think this has been mentioned in an earlier posting
An article here, dated 22 July 1842, relating to the bankruptcy, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/5134/page/289/data.pdf , , states that he '...offered his father, John Hogg, farmer at Biddrie, as his security...'
Feel as if I've just won the Lottery & the Key to heaven ;D
Thanks for all the work from Jen, William & Monica.
Monica........Yes, I'm over the moon alright & yes, Jen's find certainly opened things up (no doubt there) ;D
I did find info. along the way re John/Elizabeth but couldn't connect them at all (not even as a possible) as the Address (Area) & Elizabeth's name didn't tie in with James being born Fetteresso/ Kincardine & no other Elizabeth down the line.
Just glad my patience & the brilliant help on here has paid off.
I came home to all this & suddenly my appetite for food vanished.
It's taken me ages to run through all this & I'm wondering if I'm dreaming.........can't believe my brick wall has now been cemented.
I hope the winners of the lottery have the same feeling as I have right now.
Thanks all, plenty to be getting on with for quite a while ::)
Annie
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...I came home to all this & suddenly my appetite for food vanished...
Annie, we all have long old days...go and get supper :-*
Monica
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Monica,
Fed & watering now......there was enough "food" for thought on the thread to keep me going for a week........best diet ever is genealogy.......hunger pangs don't include calories ;D
Annie
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Marriage Garvock 20 March 1791 John Hogg and Mary Brichin (also note Elisabeth Hogg and Robert Findlay 3 March 1839 - parents of granddaughter in 1851 census?)
Baptism Garvock 15 Jan 1792 John Hogg parents John Hogg and Mary Brichan.
I haven't researched this yet (still working my way through everything) but that surname looks suspect.....I wonder if it's a mistranscription of "Buchan"?
Time will tell ???
Annie
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1841 Biddrie, St Cyrus
John Hogg 50
Elisabeth 50
John 14
David 10
Jean 20
Helen 15
Margaret 12
Jessie 8
1851 Beddrie
John Hogg 59 farmer 125 acres b Garvock
Elisabeth w 59 b Garvock
David s 20 b Garvock
Margaret d 22 b Garvock
Jessie d19 b Garvock
Elisabeth Findley gd b Logie Pert, Angus
William,
Thanks for your input. There is no doubt on those......the name David kind of clinched it as it's not a common forename in the family....David Morris (my 2 x g g/father) is the only other in the family with that name!!!
Plenty on here from you with other info. (marriages/births) etc.
Family tree here on a/try http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3547560/person/6045311284/facts
They show both John Hogg and Elizabeth Rae dieing within months of each other in 1871. From these details, death for John Hogg reported by son John, his parents https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYN4-DJL
From the place of death showing on the tree (17 March 1871, Glen of Craigo, Logie Pert, Forfar), wondering whether this SP entry might be relevant?
John HOGG, 18/04/1871
Joint Tenant at GLEN OF CRAIGS
FORFAR SHERIFF COURT - ref SC47/40/38
5 pages.
Not clear (not given) what type of document it might be on the Wills & Testament database of SP.
Monica & William.....I no longer have a "prescription" for Ancestry but I'm sure thankful for the lead on this lot I can make use of.
Annie
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Jen,
That's the DC I have which was wrong as I was looking for James Hogg death 1841 - 1851.
However, this may well turn out to be a relative & for the purpose of anyone looking for "Hogg" info.....
James Hogg d 01 Feb 1844 aged 5yrs, Felling, Heworth, Gateshead
Parents John Hogg & Margaret
Just been flicking through the Free Census Index on SP & by strange coincidence I found this...........
HOGG JOHN 03/07/1883 OF 27 HIGH STREET, FELLING, DURHAM, RETIRED GROCER PROBATE OF THE WILL NON-SCOTTISH COURT SC70/6/24
I have a feeling this may be brother of James :-\
Will get round to that once I've done the initial ones.
Annie
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Just been flicking through the Free Census Index on SP & by strange coincidence I found this...........
HOGG JOHN 03/07/1883 OF 27 HIGH STREET, FELLING, DURHAM, RETIRED GROCER PROBATE OF THE WILL NON-SCOTTISH COURT SC70/6/24
I have a feeling this may be brother of James :-\
I don't think so.
All the censuses show this John Hogg as born Northumberland, Corbridge.
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I think you can rule out the John Hogg from Felling as James's brother. I think John Hogg is at Glen of Craigo on the censuses from 1871 - 1901. (and should be there in 1911). His wife was Elspet (Elsy/ Elsie)Stewart . They had a son Joseph before they married.
From Scottish calendar of confirmations " Hogg John, Farmer, Glen of Craigo, Logie Pert, Forfarshire, died 14 June 1913 at Glen of Craigo, testate. Confirmation granted at Forfar 11 August to David Dunbar, Publican, 43 Great Western Road, Glasgow, his son in law...Value of Estate £406 -4s-11d" (Think David Dunbar was husband of daughter Jane Hogg).
And " Hogg Joseph , Farmer, Glen of Craigo, by Laurencekirk, died 1 April 1935 at same place testate. Confirmation Forfar to Mary Ann Hogg, Glen of Craigo, aforesaid, his widow and William Alexander Donald, Bank Agent, Montrose, Executors.... Value of estate £1079-8- 11."
William
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Dundee Courier 2 April 1935
The death occurred yesterday at Glen of Craigo Farm, Logie Pert, near Montrose of Mr Joseph Hogg, at the age of 74.
Deceased was well known and highly esteemed in the district, with which his family has been connected for 70 years, his father and grandfather having farmed Glen of Craigo before him. He himself farmed Glen of Craigo for 23 years.
Mr Hogg was noted as a cattle feeder.
He is survived by his widow and daughter.
William
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From Family Search there is a baptism for James Hogg parents John Hogg and Elisabeth Rae 31 May 1812 Garvock ( with siblings Mary 1814, Elizabeth 1817,Anne 1819, Helen 1823, Jane 1821, Jessy Falconer 1832, John 1825 and David 1830).
William
Update..............
Wading through everything on SP.
Have birth & baptism dates for James b 1812, Garvock, son of John Jnr (which helps) & Elizabeth Rae ;D
Coincidently, there is another birth on the same page with father John Murray & mother Agnes m/s Brichen..... a relation I hope ???
Have Inventories for both father John d 1871 & son John d 1913. John (1913) was "Joint Tenant" mentioned in Monica's post.....
Family tree here on a/try http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3547560/person/6045311284/facts
They show both John Hogg and Elizabeth Rae dieing within months of each other in 1871. From these details, death for John Hogg reported by son John, his parents https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYN4-DJL
From the place of death showing on the tree (17 March 1871, Glen of Craigo, Logie Pert, Forfar), wondering whether this SP entry might be relevant?
John HOGG, 18/04/1871
Joint Tenant at GLEN OF CRAIGS
FORFAR SHERIFF COURT - ref SC47/40/38
5 pages.
Monica
What is confusing is the different areas Glen of Craigo comes under at different times.
Just hoping when "SP" do their changeover, there will be an "Offer" of some sort as I could spend a fortune with this lot ;D
Thanks all.....enjoying the quest as it's so much better than "snail mail" for English/Irish & Welsh certs. etc.
Annie
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Glad that you are enjoying yourself, Annie!
Re John Hogg d 1913 the calendar shows that he died testate - I think there is a will for him as well as the inventory. (There are two entries for him on the SP wills index - one of 5 pages and one of 3, the latter probably being the will).
In my dreams SP introduce a subscription service!
William
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In my dreams SP introduce a subscription service!
William
We share your dream William ;)
Monica
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My dream is to find James Hogg's death - between 1843 and 1851? :-\
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If he died in Scotland, given this farming family we now have for him, we can hope his family would have been involved with the burial? Wonder which cemetery they were buried in through the early to mid 1800s?
Does worry me though that eldest son of farmer, with not an insubstantial farm, went off to create another career. When I say worry, I mean that in the research way ::) and how to find other sources...
Monica
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My dream is to find James Hogg's death - between 1843 and 1851? :-\
Me too jen.
A thought crossed my mind, died aged abt. 32 - 39 yrs........I wonder if the Bankruptcy was too much to deal with & maybe took his own life :-\
Monica,
I wonder if other family are buried along with James, being as Ann returned to Durham ???
Annie
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Looking at old maps of Biddrie it would seem to be in St Cyrus parish - so wonder if the Hoggs are buried there (or in Garvock).
Also note that marriage of John Hogg to Elspet Stewart 29 June 1861 was in St Cyrus (as was that of Helen Hogg to John Findlay in 1846).
Have just realised that the runs for the Stonehaven Journal and for the Montose ... Kincardine Advertiser only start in 1846 on the newspaper archive. Might be worth looking for earlier years being added. The Stonehaven Journal, I think, started publication in 1843.
William
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With William's additional comments, Annie, you could email here and ask about Hogg names/graves etc maybe?
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nescotland/graveyards/grgvk.htm
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nescotland/graveyards/grstcynk.htm
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nescotland/graveyards/grstcyuk.htm
The site owner seems happy to respond to queries which is always great news :)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for links.
I think I've looked on some of those sites & other's in the past in the hope of finding something but of course, nothing else to go on apart from name really ;)
I suppose, I should have thought on a wider scale with the 1841 being just the County for where born ::)
I tried to email last night but it's asking for a yahoo email address which I don't have.
As I'm using a friends laptop while mine is "off the road", I don't want to be doing anything as I need permission etc.
Will be my 1st port of call when I get my own comp fixed though ;D
My fingers are sore with all this typing & no Microsoft WORD on here for copying & pasting :(
Annie
Annie
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Looking at old maps of Biddrie it would seem to be in St Cyrus parish - so wonder if the Hoggs are buried there (or in Garvock).
Also note that marriage of John Hogg to Elspet Stewart 29 June 1861 was in St Cyrus (as was that of Helen Hogg to John Findlay in 1846).
Have just realised that the runs for the Stonehaven Journal and for the Montose ... Kincardine Advertiser only start in 1846 on the newspaper archive. Might be worth looking for earlier years being added. The Stonehaven Journal, I think, started publication in 1843.
William
Thanks William,
Will have a scoot around from time to time as I may find other info.
Interesting with these additional surnames Brichan & Rae to investigate too ;D
One in particular is Jessy Falconer Hogg as this may be the maiden name for mother of Elizabeth Rae ???
Annie
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Looks like the Hogg family have been in the Garvock area for some time......
http://www.ancestor.abel.co.uk/Angus/Garvock.html
Testaments of Garvock people from the Register of Testaments of the Commissariot of St Andrews, 1549-1823
John Hogg tenant in Forth of Garvock 1 Nov 1819
On the cert. it has "James was baptised 1812 in the house of John Hogg Jnr at Forth"
Annie
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I tried to email last night but it's asking for a yahoo email address which I don't have.
Annie, if you want, I can send a general email enquiring about the Hogg surname in those cemeteries?
Monica
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William, from the parish entry for the marriage, wonder how the Eleanor Robinson connects...maybe a clue to Ann's family members. From your ref to witnesses, and a George Old, there is a George Old 40, a victualler (I think) and his wife Margaret living at Duke Street Tynemouth in 1841, a possible for him.
William & Monica,
Been digging around with all this new info.
Ann Robinson (wife of James Hogg) had a sis Eleanor (same name as mother) who was likely a witness?
George Old married Margaret Bartrim 16 Oct 1824 Tynemouth
From a different line (same areas) there is a Margaret Bartram (variant) b1801 Jarrow & her parents are William Bartram & Isabella Mills b bef. 1779.
Ann Robinson's mother was Eleanor Mills b c1781
Thomas Robinson & Eleanor Mills also had a daughter Isabella.
It looks as though Isabella Mills could well be a sis of Eleanor Mills (Ann Robinson's mother).
This Isabella's daughter Margaret may be the wife of George Old but I would need to check this out more as I don't have parents yet for Eleanor Mills.
If so, Margaret Bartrim would be a cousin of my Ann Robinson.
Annie
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Hi Annie
Cannot see George or Margaret Old in any other censuses but wonder if this could be his death (from Durham Records Online) Tynemouth 1842 George Old born about 1800 address Duke Street.
There is a marriage for a Margaret Old to a William Walker in Tynemouth 1844. ( The marriage index for North Tyneside Council gives her father's surname as Bartram). Still looking for them in the 1851 census.
William
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William,
Thanks, you are doing some digging & I'm running out of space on my FTM ;D
I can't keep up with all this new info........but as I said I would have to dig deeper to establish whether Margaret's mother Isabella Mills was a sis of my 4 x g g/mother Eleanor Mills.
According to what I have (from a relative), Isabella Mills father was Thomas & her husband William Bartram's father was also Thomas.
They had 2 sons named William (father's name) b 1802 & John b 1805.......not named Thomas after both g/father's ???
William Bartram's mother was Ann but their 2 daughters were named Margaret b 1801 & Mary b 1808.
Margaret may have been the name of Isabella Mills & Eleanor Mills mother as both had daughters named Margaret too :-\
My Eleanor's 1st daughter was named Ann b 1812 & Isabella's 1st daughter was named Margaret b 1801 so Margaret may be after mother.
Isabella was married 1795 whereas Eleanor married later.
Annie
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What about this for Thomas?
Tynemouth b March 4 bap 1 Apr 1798 Thomas Ist son of Willm Bartram of Balkwell n of Belford P by his wife Isabella Mills( image 247 in the Bts for Tynemouth).
Also in case you don't have them from the Bts for Jarrow with Heworth
1800 born 5 May bap 21 Dec Margaret 3rd child of William Bart of Hebburn Colliery labourer native of Belford Northumberland by his wife Isabella Mills native of Kyloe (image 134)
1802 born Apr 6th bap 10th Oct William 4th child of William Bartram of Jarrow Wood waggonman native of Belford Northumberland by his wife Isabella late Mills native of Lowick Northumberland (image 182)
1805 born May 4 bap Jul 21 John 5 child of William Bartram of Hebburn Colliery waggonman native of Belford Northumberland by his wife Isabella late Mills native of do (image 276)
1808 Mary Bertram , Hebburn Coll born 25 Oct bap Dec 18 3rd da of Wm Bertram of Belford labourer and Isabella dr of Thos Mills of Lowick of Kyloe (image 419)
William
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From the Bts for Lowick
26 March 1769 Isable daur of Thos Mills of Lowick (image 9)
8 Dec 1774 Eleanor daur of Thos Mills of Lowick (image 15).
William
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Here is the marriage of William Walker and Margaret Old
Wallsend 11th Feb 1844 William Walker widower master mariner residence this parish Father Joshua Walker mariner
Margaret Old widow residence parish of Tynemouth Father William Bartram (occupation looks like licensee to me but may well be wrong!)
Witnesses Joseph Mordue and James Jameson
It is image 335 in the Bt's for Wallsend 1833 - 1857.
William
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Annie, if you want, I can send a general email enquiring about the Hogg surname in those cemeteries?
Any progress on this front?
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Jen...just back in from long family lunch...YES! Email came in from Colin Milne, webmaster, this pm. First of a few images below. From Garvock Cemetery. I think this is John Hogg's MI photo, father of James. Image needs to be saved and blown up.... ::)
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Stone above was ref 25. Below 26...Colin believes likely connected:
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Sorry - can't see any images....... :(
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Not sure why you can't see them :-\
These are transcript of the four Hogg MIs at Garvock below. Colin Milne thinks the first two, images above, are connected. Two more, given their location, connected for those two last ones.
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From the above details, great to have MI details for James' parents, John and Elizabeth...but no further on James himself Annie...
Monica
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The attachments don't seem to have come through, Monica.
William
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??? I am seeing them on my RC screen posts...this hasn't happened to me before on posts with attachments. Will PM Trystan/Sarah to see if they can help further...
Monica
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??? I am seeing them on my RC screen posts...
Sorry I don't see any I'm afraid :-\
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Odd, for me it is Jen :-\ Have sent a report to Trystan/Sarah to see if they can help further. I can see view numbers going up on the attachments I have added. No idea what is going on and the problem though on view.
Monica :)
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My Eleanor's 1st daughter was named Ann b 1812 & Isabella's 1st daughter was named Margaret b 1801 so Margaret may be after mother.
Isabella was married 1795 whereas Eleanor married later.
Oooops, I made a mistook......My Eleanor's 1st born was named Jane ::)
When I added the "new info" I forgot to press the button to arrange children in date order ;D
This now has me confused re her parentage.
Annie
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Remember that the bt states that Margaret was Isabella's third child - have not found a record for her second child as yet.
William
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Morning :)
Are you still having problems seeing the images Jen and William ? If not can you let me know which browsers you are using......also could you try opening up the page with a different browser and see if you can see the images?
I can see the images.
Regards
Sarah
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Hi Sarah
I use IE 11. Have just tried on Google Chrome and Firefox as well and still cannot see them.
Regards
William
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You should be able to see them now.
The issue was caused by the fact that on on the "Lookup Request" boards attachments are turned off.
I've moved the post to the "Durham" board, so you should be able to see them now.
Sorry for the bother :)
Trystan
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Thanks Trystan, mystery solved.
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Thanks, Trystan.
Wonder if John Hogg was Mary Brichan's second husband. ( Mary Ross is stated to be his half sister on the mi.)
Marriage Marykirk, Kincardineshire John Ross and Mary Brechan 3 Aug 1779
Christening Garvock, Mary Ross Parents John Ross and Mary Brechan 8 May 1779
William
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Wonder if John Hogg was Mary Brichan's second husband. ( Mary Ross is stated to be his half sister on the mi.)
Marriage Marykirk, Kincardineshire John Ross and Mary Brechan 3 Aug 1779
Christening Garvock, Mary Ross Parents John Ross and Mary Brechan 8 May 1779
Thanks William,
Was just about to check this info. out as I thought it was John who was previously married with daughter Mary Ross but wondered if Ross had been her married name.....solved with thanks ;D
Took me a while to work out who was who on the transcripts but think I have everyone where they belong now?
Still no trace of James ???
Annie
ADDED....The reason I believed John to have been the father of Mary was her being named as "half sister" rather than "step sister"
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You should be able to see them now.
The issue was caused by the fact that on on the "Lookup Request" boards attachments are turned off.
I've moved the post to the "Durham" board, so you should be able to see them now.
Sorry for the bother :)
Trystan
You don't have to apologise, Trystan. My fault, forgot to check on the type of board I was on. Thanks for moving :)
Monica
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Monica,
Back on this thread checking over some things as I had invested in the Wills & a couple of marriages etc. & checking where I'm at with all the info. on here to see what's still 'pending' ;)
My sincere apologies to you, I hadn't thanked you for your trouble in obtaining the MI's!!
I downloaded them & thank you very much, it's much appreciated indeed as I'm sure you know?
Feeling rather guilty :-[
I don't know how that happened, probably with the toing & froing at the time ???
Annie
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You shouldn't feel bad, Annie :) Hope they help at any time!
Monica
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Hmm...Well...I'm very interested in this find!!!
Back on this trail & curiously I've come across something which had evaded me previously in searches somehow :-\
http://www.burness.ca/p508.htm#i5073
I know not all baptisms were recorded etc. but...
"James Hogg is estimated to have been born circa 1812" :o
Seems a very big coincidence as MY James Hogg was b 1812 (confirmed) with the help of some of RCs best sleuths (Thank you)!!! ;D...(Yet to find his death) but maybe this is him with someone else (meanwhile) & although his wife Ann states she's a widow in 1851, it may have been a cover-up if he was 'playing away' :-\
Just marking this & holding the link I found until I check it out (with fingers crossed) ;D
"Child of James Hogg and Isabella Burness
Elizabeth Hogg1,2 b. 20 Feb 1842, d. 18 Apr 1907"
Citations
1. OPR Garvock.
2. Death Registration, General Register Office for Scotland
Elizabeth would have been born after my 2 x g g/f David Morris Hogg who was b c1840 in Fetteresso but father James was b Garvock ???
Interestingly, James had 2 sons with wife Ann, 1st son named John which was James' father's name & by coincidence, ELIZABETH was his mother's name :-\
Annie
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Ohh Well... ::)
I have downloaded that baptism for Elizabeth & I can't make any sense of it i.e. I will need to ask SP for a better image although meanwhile (when I get time) I will post on the 'Deciphering' board as I'm so curious now :P
Annie