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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: PaulThommo on Tuesday 12 January 16 14:24 GMT (UK)
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My G G Grandfather, William Dobson was living in South Shields, Co. Durham. On the wedding certificate of his daughter his occupation is listed as Master Mariner and although he is not listed on the 1851 census, his wife is listed as married - Master Mariners wife. On the 1861 census she is listed as Widow. There are 2 deaths listed for a William Dobson of South Shields in the 1850's, is there anywhere I can go to find out information about Master Mariners or is it best to order the 2 death certificates and hope for the best. I thought that the census included people on boats, or is there another section for people at sea?
What also doesn't help is that there is no mention of him in the 1841 census, but I have his wedding certificate showing he married a Jane Rippon in January 1842 in Tynemouth, Northumberland (the other side of the river Tyne to South Shields) and that his father (Jeremiah) and her father (William) were both listed as Mariners.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Paul Thompson
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I thought that the census included people on boats, or is there another section for people at sea?
Seamen were included in the census if they were on ships anchored in British ports on the night of the census. However see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=275133.msg1591449#msg1591449
Stan
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One of the Burials from Familysearch;
William DOBSON,
3 January 1855
St. Hilda'S, South Shields, Durham, England
Age 73, Birth c 1782
I think you can rule that one out :)
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a Master Mariner is "The Captain" of the ship
do not rule out he may have died at sea -
a member named Seaweed is the man you need .....send him a PM ....he will give you advice ..
good luck
:)
.......................................
added
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_mariner
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Do you have the date and place of birth of William Dobson?
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Hi seaweed.
From another posting of Pauls;
"I have a copy of a marriage certificate for my G G Grandparents who married in 1842. The infuriating part is that the ages of the newly weds is listed as 'of full age' (I presume 21 and over)"
1851 Census Jane Dobson, Williams Wife is born c 1821 South Shields, She is down as Married, Master Mariners Wife.
By 1861 she is Widowed and a Dressmaker.
The last Child of William/Jane is born c 1849
M/C has Father as Jeremiah, Mariner.
I found a Jeremiah born c 1799/1800 South Shields, Mariner, on Census.
Have added that info to the other posting in case it is Williams Father.
Trish :)
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is that his masters and mates certificate on
A****
born 1816
apprenticed 1833
25th September 1850 still serving
Master on the Mary Jardine ?
38698
witnessed by Fred Bullock Falmouth, Seaweed is your man
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Excellent work Radcliff.
Info has his Birth as 31 May 1816 South Shields.
Looks like I may have been right;
Baptiism;
WILLIAM Dobson, 23 June 1816, St Hilda, South Shields, Durham
Parents JEREMIAH/ELEANOR
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JEREMIAH was born 20 Sept 1796
Apprenticed 1815
Finished service on the "Margaret" 1854 and part of 1855
1851 Jeremiah has drpped a few years of his age (new Wife is Younger)
Jeremiah Dobson, 51, Mariner
Rebecca Dobson, 41
John Dobson, 16
Jane Dobson, 11
Francis Dobson, 9
Eleanor Dobson, 7
Rebecca Dobson, 5
1841 Westoe, Durham;
Jeremiah Dobson, 45
Rebecca Dobson, 35
Jeremiah Dobson, 15
Isabella Dobson, 15
George Dobson, 13
John Dobson, 5
Jane Dobson, 1
Marriage to Rebecca is 1839 on FreeBMD
On Familysearch he is born c 1794;
Name Jeremiah Dobson
Event Type Military Service
Event Year Range 1853-1857
Event Place United Kingdom
Birthplace Durham
Birth Year 1794
That would fit with a Baptism 3 November 1793, South Shields Durham
Parents WILLIAM/ISABEL
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To Trish, Garstonite, Seaweed, Radcliff & Stan,
To all of you thank you so much for all the work you have put in, I already had some small pieces of the information but with all the additional information the picture is becoming clear and making sense. Lots to digest and research further. Once again many thanks, you all do an amazing job.
Cheers
Paul Thompson
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Paul, if his papers were witnessed in Falmouth,
perhaps you need to look there , trace the ship's movements
where did she sail to in 1850
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Have you looked at Lloyd's Captain's register? I think Cleveland Family History Group have a copy and that often has useful information re Master Mariners.
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Hi Radcliff,
Thanks for your suggestion. Until you replied yesterday I had no idea what ship(s) he was on or where he sailed to, something to start looking up. However I live in Perth, Western Australia so it will all have to be via the internet.
Paul Thompson
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Hello Sillgen,
Thank you for your reply, this is all new to me but will try Lloyds Captains register, you can go off on so many tangents researching, makes it all that more exciting, especially if you come across something that you are looking for.
Paul Thompson
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It is doubtful he has records in Lloyds Captains Register for a number of reasons, the primary one being. If he held a master's certificate but ceased active service before 1869. As seem to be the case in this instance. Also he would not be listed in LCR if he did not hold a foreign-trade master's certificate. or Captained a Ferry, Yacht, Fishing boat or any other vessel of a similar nature a Tug for example.
It should be borne in mind that the term "master mariner" was sometimes used loosely and that not everyone so called held a master's certificate.
That said I note Radcliff comes up with a probable certificate from An------ I do not subscribe so cannot check it out.
I cannot find a vessel by the name of MARY JARDINE? for the time scale, nor can I find in the Mercantile Navy List anyone holding a masters certificate with the name William Dobson or with the certificate number 38698 either serving or the certificates withdrawn (usually in cases of death)
Is there any chance that the part of the document bearing the name of the vessel and/or certificate number, could be attached?
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This one has done my head in but I think I have found the bugger!
He obtained his Masters Certificate at London? 13/June/1851. His Certificate number was 38698 (thank you Radcliff) His registered ticket number was 187253. He died in Malta 29/March/1853.
There are other details which I have found. Will get back to you when I have interpreted.
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Excellent detective work Seaweed x
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From what I can make out William Dobson made five voyages after obtaining his Masters certificate commencing 10/July/1851.
He was only Master of one vessel. This ship was registered, not surprisingly, in Newcastle. Her port rotation number was 2016. Unfortunately no "Key" exists to marry port rotation numbers to a vessels name.
Suggest contact with Tyne and Wear Archives they have registration details of Newcastle ships 1786-1931. Try searching newspaper archives to see if you can come up with a ships name. Don't forget the name MARY JARDINE just because I cannot locate doesn't mean to say she did not exist.
I could give you other links to files at the British National Archive, but as you are in Australia it seems rather pointless.
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I will go back to the record I found Seaweed and try to list here
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Looking at it again it could be Mary and Caroline
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Mary Caroline may be the one Seaweed, I can see her coming and going from Sunderland and Newcastle pre 1850 , but I only have newspapers to search
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apprenticed on the 16th March 1833 to March 16th 1836, on the Valenin, ? Newcastle
18th March 1836, seaman, on the M Reid, also Newcastle ,Foreign trade
4th April 1837, seaman sailed on the Ship Friends,coasting,
2nd April 1838,seaman,sailed on the Triton,coasting,
.March 1839,seaman,sailed on the Vigilante, foreign,
all Newcastle
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sailed on the. Amazon, Dundee, as a 2nd mate, foreign trade , April 1840
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OK Thanks for that Radcliff. It's beginning to come together.
I think the vessel he was apprentice on was VALLENIA built Sunderland 1814 233 tons regular sailings to the Baltic from Newcastle. Registered in Newcastle.
The other vessels do have Newcastle connections apart from M REID which I cannot find.
AMAZON of Dundee built New Brunswick 1833 292 tons Barque rigged.
What needs to happen is to search the British National Archive for copies of the various crew agreements which should/will confirm your findings but like I said in a previous post its a long haul for Paul. I personally would be content with what we have up to now.
The question is -------------------- Where was William Dobson from 1840 to 1851?
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Back sailing out of Newcastle Seaweed
this I can not make out
Macreon ? as a mate foreign and coasting,March 1841 until March 1844
Richard, April 1844 to March 1845, foreign
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on the George Bell, London, April 1845 to May 1846, mate and master, foreign and coastal trade
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GEORGE BELL built in 1839 at Sunderland 225 tons Snow rigged registered in London owned by J Gibbon regular sailings Shields- London and Shields Baltic.
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Back to Newcastle,
Wensley Dale,master,coasting , 1st August 1846 to 27th November 1846
Susan and Sarah,mate,foreign,24th October 1847 to 12th feb 1848
St Lawrence,master,coasting,Dec 1846 to Oct 1847
Gelena,mate, coasting, March 1848 to 29th July 1848
James,mate,coasting,20th July 1848 to 23rd Nov 1848
Rapid,mate,foreign, Jan 1849 to April 1849
Ocean,mate,coasting, April 1849 to20th October 1849
Mohawk, master and mate, coasting,22nd October 1849 to 6th May 1850
Anglicanin, mate, coasting , 12th June 1850 to 24th September 1850
Mary and Caroline,master , foreign,25th September 1850
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Should have stayed in Shields
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Nice work Radcliff.
Stay in Shields. Maybe not but its better than loads of other places I can think of!
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Fascinating reading - great research - excellent work Radcliff and Seaweed ...coming from Garston ,Liverpool and having many ancestors that went to sea I found this so very interesting ....thank you both :)
we lost my wifes grandfather 3rd Nov 1979 on The Pool Fisher - a coaster sailing from Hamburg that "turned turtle " from a freak wave ...she was carrying potash which "shifted" and only 2 survived ...another sad story ...RIP Angus McDonald
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Seaweed and Radcliff,
What can I say, I have just opened your information supplied today, it reads like a novel!!!! So much information it has helped me beyond belief and to find that he died in Malta in 1873 is great news. I was looking for deaths of WD in the 1850's (his wife is listed as Widow in the 1861 census), there are 2 one in 1855 which we can discount as he was in his 70's when he died, the other in 1852. However as Malta was part of the British Empire at the time would a death certificate be issued as a British death certificate (as he was a British subject) or one issued under Malta? Do you know?
Also I notice that on quite a few of his trips the boat was 'coasting', I presume that it was plying its trade up and down the coast of the UK calling into ports and loading/unloading its cargo.
Once again I appreciate all the work that the 2 of you have put in, where you get your information from I don't know but I thank you so much. Keep up the great work you do to make our research so much easier.
Regards
Paul Thompson
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Paul first off. He died in 1853 not 1873
I cannot find any records of his death either in the deaths at sea index/register nor in British overseas deaths.
If you can wait until the end of February, I will look in the British National Archive to see if I can find the vessel with the port rotation number 2016. If her logbook is intact, it will not only tell us her name but it should also contain details of Williams demise.
I am away for five weeks, ironically in Australia, so if you will remind me by PM that would be great.
You are correct in your assumption re coasting.
You will also note that he was master of several vessels before obtaining his masters certificate in 1851.
From 1845 it was a voluntary decision if you wanted to obtain a masters certificate of service/competency this was obviously advantageous to your career/employment prospects but it did not became compulsory until after the enactment of the The Mercantile Marine Act 1850.
Garstonite,
I remember the loss of the POOL FISHER, nearly forty years ago. The sea was and still is, a dangerous place.
"For those in Peril"
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Seaweed - I had never been to a lost at sea service before ...all the relatives of the 13 who died ( 10 were never found )gathered at Mann Island Monument in Liverpool at the Pierhead ...about 100 men and women .....and then the most moving thing I have ever seen at a "funeral" - Mann Island is about 70 yards from the "pool" where all the men sign on to ships .
Suddenly - completely unexpected to all the families concerned - we heard a lone piper - he walked on his own and we thought it very strange - and then about 300 Merchant Seamen walked in line out of the pool office heads bowed ....it was a fantastic show of respect to those 13 who died ....incredible scene ...and I will admit to anyone it was that moving I shed tears ....a great show of support by those Merchant Seamen ... :) :)
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Thanks Seaweed,
I knew it was 1853 (typo error!!!). Enjoy your holiday down under, it will be hot. Will contact you on your return.
Cheers
Paul Thompson
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Hi Paul,
Found this on a Malta website
William DOBSON, Master of the English Brig Mary & Caroline of Newcastle, aged 36 years, buried 30th March 1853
http://www.stevebidmead.webspace.virginmedia.com/British%20Residents%201800-1900.htm
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Excellent fiddlerslass
So he was still on the Mary & Caroline
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Hi Fiddlerslass,
Good spotting, thank you so much, you never know where you can find information, it's just a pity that it wasn't stated the cause of his death (he was only 36). Now if I had been a "celebratory" appearing on a well known TV program I would have been whisked off to Malta and shown his grave along with all the paperwork and any newspaper reports!!!! Ah well I hope to come back to the UK for a visit this year, will add it to my list of things to find out and see if there are any local newspaper reports at South Shields library as it probably would have been newsworthy.
Many thanks once again
Paul Thompson
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A very small snippet of news
Morning Post 8th April 1853
reported on the 15th March 1853
Constantinople,
The Mary and Caroline,Dobson.
hence for the United Kingdom,got aground near Nagara 8th March , but was towed off
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Nice work Now we have established it was MARY AND CAROLINE it should be easier to find her 1853 logbook Just hope it has survived.
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I hope so to Seaweed
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Just an update. Can confirm that William Dobson died 29/March/1853 at Malta, whilst master of the Brig MARY AND CAROLINE. No cause of death was given. The Mate one Robert Mole, took over as Master.
Source. Crew Agreement in BT 98/360
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:'(
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Thanks Seaweed for the update, hope you had an enjoyable holiday 'downunder' and thanks Radcliffe for your condolences!!
In the 1850's I presume that anyone dying while overseas would be buried at the nearest port/country (in this case Malta) as the time to take a body back to the UK would be too long. Will have to try and find South Shields newspapers for that time to see if any news printed of his death (being the captain of a ship must have had some importance). Of course how long would it take for the news to get back home, must feel sorry for his wife who wouldn't have known of his death for a while
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I am sure that she would have been informed on his ships return,
to Newcastle,I assume he would be buried in Malta as his death is recorded there,