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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Pheno on Friday 15 January 16 15:50 GMT (UK)
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Michael Murphy married Margaret Broshen on 13 November 1826 at St. Nicholas, Deptford when they were described as bachelor and spinster of this parish.
They had 6 children: John 1830, Thomas 1832, Sarah (my 3xgreat grandmother) c1833-1840, Ellen 1834, Margaret 1836 & Hannah 1838.
I can't find the family in 1841 but in 1851 (HO107 Piece 1584 Folio 234 Page 14) each of Michael & Margaret claim to be aged 50 and born Ireland. He is listed as a Tanner as he is on daughter Sarah's marriage in June 1854 to John Austin - which is why I am at a loss as to her birthdate which presumably can't be about 1840 as suggested by the 1851 census as she would only then be 14 at marriage in 1854 although both were stated to be minors.
I lose Margaret after 1851 but this is Michael in 1861 (RG9 Piece 283 Folio 128 Page 42) when he is a lodger aged 60 a ?? labourer and from Cork, Ireland stating that he is married and in 1871 (RG10 Piece 744 Folio 53 Page 45) when he is again a lodger from Cork, Ireland but this time widowed and occupation of ?????
I believe his death is registered Oct 1873 in Greenwich RD - I do not as yet have this certificate.
So to summarise both Michael Murphy & Margaret Broshen seem to have been born around 1800 in Ireland, he in Cork and unknown for her.
Just thinking about trying to take this backwards to find either set of my Irish 5 x great grandparents and wondering if there is any mileage in doing so?
I have not undertaken any Irish research previously and was hoping for a few pointers if anyone thinks there might be something to find.
Regards, Pheno
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Blow me down - have just done a search and found the family in 1841 (HO107 Piece 488 Book 15 Folio 14 Page 20) but which simply confirms most of the info above except that Michael is aged 40 and Margaret 35 so they are possibly not both born about 1800.
Pheno
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If they had married in Ireland you might have had a chance but as it is without parents names looking for a Michael Kelly in Cork at most dates would give too many results, but at such an early date there are very few records surviving.
Broshen gives no result on IrishGenealogy at all, it could perhaps be Brosnen.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
Was there no parents on the marriage record?
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Hi Sinann, Michael Murphy rather than Michael Kelly but assume that is just as bad.
No parents given at marriage - it is too early.
As for Broshen, one transcription of the marriage is Margaret Rosken rather than Broshen - is that more likely.
Pheno
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I keep doing that lately, Kelly was a different search. Murphy is worse, most common name in Ireland.
You can try out surnames here http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&UserID=
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Perhaps Brosnahen. ???
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More common is Brosnan, but could also be Kerry as Brosnan very common there too. But I think it is like searching for a needle in a haystack with both names.
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Hi, have brought this topic back as Ancestry has come up with a hint as to Michael Murphy's birth and wanted to run it past those with knowledge of Irish research.
The source of the hint are the National Irish Registers from the National Library of Ireland, Dublin. The baptism is on 15 September 1799 at St. Mary's, Cork City, Cork, Ireland, Diocese Cork & Ross for a Michael Murphy born in 1799 to Ricd (assume Richard) Murphy and Johanna Hide. Sponsors could be James Neil and Nony? Murphy and also a Thomas O'Connor who looks as if he sponsors all baptisms so may be the priest.
All this fits with my previous info that Michael was born around 1800 in Cork but what seems an added extra to me is that Michael's youngest daughter was baptised Johanna - although know as Hannah.
Any comments? Should I take this at face value or are there too many Michael Murphy's born Cork c.1800 too place any faith in this?
Thanks, Pheno
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Best bet might be try a DNA test. Our records are not good for that far back and far too many Murphys. Yes Brosnan is most common spelling, lots of them in Kerry especially.
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Hi, am still trying to find something about these two - have taken a dna test but no matches at present. However, all Michael & Margaret's children were baptised catholic. I just wondered whether, although they married in C of E church in Deptford in 1826 I think this was because marriages in a catholic church were not valid at this date.
Is it possible that they also married in a catholic church, which I imagine might give more info, and if so can anyone find such a record please?
Thanks, Pheno
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Have you found the birth registrations for any of the children born after 1837?
There's these births on the GRO index in Greenwich.
MURPHY, ELLEN BROSAN Order
GRO Reference: 1838 D Quarter in GREENWICH UNION Volume 05 Page 209 Order
MURPHY, JOHANNA BROSON Order
GRO Reference: 1840 S Quarter in GREENWICH UNION Volume 05 Page 195 Order
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Yes thanks Hurworth, have plenty of info coming forward.
Just trying any way I can think of to glean any clue as to specifically where in Ireland they might originate. I read somewhere that although catholics had to get married in a c of e church they often also married in a catholic church.
Pheno
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FindMyPast is the best place for Catholic parish records. Hopefully there are more records to come.
They don't have this marriage.
To be honest, I don't think you'll find it. For starters, when they say Cork you don't know whether they mean the city or the county. I'm in the same boat with a Julia Brown/e who census records said was born in Ireland (and she didn't age 10 years every decade) in the first decade of the 1800s .
On her last census before she died she said she was born in Cork.
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Some early Catholic registers were transcribed and published by Catholic Record Society (CRS) 100 years ago in CRS journals. Some of these are available on the Internet Archive.
https://archive.org/search.php?query=Catholics
Some journals contain many topics so it's necessary to open those to check contents pages.
Catholic Family History Society
https://catholicfhs.wordpress.com
I looked up Deptford on GEN UKI but didn't see a Catholic church mentioned.
Even if there was a record of a Catholic wedding it might not help you. There may have been different witnesses to C of E. ceremony.
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Hi, bringing this back again as I may have something from a dna match although we don't have any matching names in our trees.
He is American of Irish ancestry and the two in the title above are my only Irish links. He has a very small ancestry tree so I did some research myself which he has just confirmed which suggests his ancestry is from a Michael Kel(l)eher and an Honora Cronin who married 20 Feb 1866 in Cork, I think. They had 5 sons and 2 daughters.
It seems that Honora Cronin might have had a brother Daniel Cronin who married a Julia Murphy possibly in Schull East, Cork. Possibly this Julia Murphy was part of my Michael Murphy family although there is a good few years age gap.
As I have said previously I have no experience of Irish research and I wondered if anybody was able to find out if this Honora Cronin had a brother Daniel and indeed if he had married a Julia Murphy for starters.
Thanks, Pheno
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Marriage of MICHAEL KELEHER of N/R and HONORIA CRONIN of N/R
on 20 February 1866
Parish/Church/Congregation - SCHULL EAST
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC)
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.east%20schull.p4804.00704
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This Search on
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
will get Cronins, Schull East
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This Search will get Bros* anywhere, anytime
Then from Search results click Cork, then 1800's folder to get them by Decade
If you want Kerry click Kerry etc...
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Hi, have brought this topic back as Ancestry has come up with a hint as to Michael Murphy's birth and wanted to run it past those with knowledge of Irish research.
The source of the hint are the National Irish Registers from the National Library of Ireland, Dublin. The baptism is on 15 September 1799 at St. Mary's, Cork City, Cork, Ireland, Diocese Cork & Ross for a Michael Murphy born in 1799 to Ricd (assume Richard) Murphy and Johanna Hide. Sponsors could be James Neil and Nony? Murphy and also a Thomas O'Connor who looks as if he sponsors all baptisms so may be the priest.
All this fits with my previous info that Michael was born around 1800 in Cork but what seems an added extra to me is that Michael's youngest daughter was baptised Johanna - although know as Hannah.
Any comments? Should I take this at face value or are there too many Michael Murphy's born Cork c.1800 too place any faith in this?
Thanks, Pheno
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0041 St. Mary's, Cork city
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Marriage of MICHAEL KELEHER of N/R and HONORIA CRONIN of N/R
on 20 February 1866
Parish/Church/Congregation - SCHULL EAST
Area - CORK & ROSS (RC)
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=cork%20%26%20ross.east%20schull.p4804.00704
Now that you have year you can look on Civil Reg which started 1864 for Marriage Reg
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
this Search will find it as there are only 3 you'll find it very easily and it will help on How to Search for things rather than me just posting it.
Just enter the following
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Thanks for all this Hallmark. Will make my through it and hopefully find something useful.
Pheno
Added an hour later: Thanks but this is like a needle in a haystack. I hadn't realised that Cronin was also a popular name as is Murphy and I am not all sure what BROS* name I am looking for so don't think there is any chance.
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"....It seems that Honora Cronin might have had a brother Daniel Cronin who married a Julia Murphy possibly in Schull East, Cork...."
HONORIA CRONIN married on 20 February 1866 in Schull East ... so is there a Daniel marrying around then?
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Thanks for all this Hallmark. Will make my through it and hopefully find something useful.
Pheno
Added an hour later: Thanks but this is like a needle in a haystack. I hadn't realised that Cronin was also a popular name as is Murphy and I am not all sure what BROS* name I am looking for so don't think there is any chance.
Aren't you looking for Margaret Bros* born early 1800's ??
This Search for Margaret Bros* born ANYWHERE 1800 to 1806 throws up 3 POSSIBLES !
A search on https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
for Margaret Bros* Tralee 1820 to 1835 could find Marriages for 1, 2 or all 3, who knows?
An interesting one is the 2nd one..... To me, it appears there is no record of a Baptism, so am thinking Why? "What other date information?
Could it be that her Marriage in England was *noted in the Register??
As all RC Registers are online, free https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0680 Tralee
maybe try 1826 ??
If it were me it is something that I would at least investigate!
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/church-records/about/what-church-records-are-available-online