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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Canada Lookup Request => Topic started by: Vatersay on Thursday 21 January 16 17:20 GMT (UK)
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Hello everybody
Just been given the names of five seamen who were lost on the Annie Jane in 1853 from their names you would deduce they were French speaking Canadians.
Audel Drapean
Samuel Langlas
Napolean Mercar
Amable Moan
Joseph Tallat
It would be good if I could get their origins ages etc.
Also another two who's names I had previously Uhalt Gagnon and Edward Durant both carpenters.
Is their a French language genealogy site in Canada? I am afraid I am handicapped in this field as my French is limited, non existent. But if you could point me in the right direction I will get some one to put a post on it.
Any help greatly appreciated as always.
Regards Allan http://www.anniejane.net/
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Hello Allan
Napoleon Mercar = Napoleon Mercier
1851 Census L'Islet, Quebec
Occupation: navigateur
Born: St. Thomas, F (F meaning French Canada, Quebec)
Age: 24
(residing with M. Elinor Mercier, could be sister and her husband David Talbot)
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/1851/Pages/item.aspx?itemid=999052
Linda
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First on your list
I think the "n" ending is actually a "u" ....Drapeau
You can try and trace this one..tough with the ladies as they could have married before the next census
Adile Drapeau Age 18 Birth c.1833 Canada (Quebec) Rimouski County
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e093/e002313091.jpg
Hmmm, looking again...I see you are looking for men...this was a female, sorry...see no males by the name as yet....
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Langlais/Langois/Langley, etc. ...this lad might be one to look at...perhaps there is more in the file, you'll have to research this one further...
Samuel Langlas Military Service Year Range 1853-1857
United Kingdom Birthplace Canada Birth Year 1826
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQV-2VK
Moine/Moen /Moyen, etc. ( Lemoin,etc) That might be a hard one to locate
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Hi Allan:
In your post you list one of the crew as Amable Moan. On the Crew Drowned List from the Annie Jane website the name is spelt - Amable Moine.
I don't have much experience with the early Canadian Census but wondered if this entry in Montreal on the 1842 Canada East census is a possibility:
Amable Lemoine / Menuisier (Carpenter)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gxo/
sami
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Might want to look into this death although it might just be coincidence...FindMyPast has
Joseph Tallat 1853 Deaths at sea ....also this name can also be found in Liverpool, so you'll have to do some carefull research....( French names can be found everywhere...although the navigator & carpenter do sound pretty plausible) http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gxp/
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Why were there that many carpenters on the crew? A tad suspicious when many of the men being transported were carpenters...unless that is false information put on line...
UGH! Reading further, the ship was loaded with railway iron and had already set back once with problems.
Makes me wonder if some of the crew took off at that stop....
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Vatersay, are you one of the posters here, or have you not seen this?
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=11810
Regards
Malky
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Hello everybody
Thanks for all your efforts.
Just as a word of explanation somebody on roots chat PM'd me suggesting that the names had been anglasised so I went for something that's a bit more French on the site as there is little doubt they were French Canadians.
As for joiners I do not think anybody jumped ship after the first voyage as it meant about three months imprisonment and the difficulty of getting another ship as you had to be registered. I think the carpenters came over on the Annie Jane, a ship usually left the shipyard as early as they could in its construction period and the final finishing was done on the voyage over and in the graving dock in Liverpool. So I think they were kept on as crew for the return voyage, to make up the numbers, and that would certainly go some way to explaining the reluctance of some of the French Canadians to climb the rigging. I make a total of seven carpenters. That is the best explanation I have, if somebody has a better one I would be very glad to hear it.
I have seen the ships nostalgia posting before, thanks for that.
Will look into the names suggested as much as I can the problem is without ages, origins its just about impossible to say for sure. If they can never be found in subsequent censuses that's always a good pointer but with seamen?????
Regards everyone, your help as always is invaluable.
Allan
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Not sure if the dates meant signed up for those years, or actually worked within & up to those years...but there is another name under the merchant seaman you might look into...
Ubalel Gagnon -Military Service-Year Range 1845-1854 United Kingdom Birthplace Canada
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ3-C64
and also adding Andee Drapean Military Service 1845-1854 United Kingdom Birthplace Canada
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ9-SVT
and... "Amatle" Moan Military Service 1853-1857 United Kingdom Birthplace Canada Birth Year 1829
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC3V-4XV
This publications says they took on more crew at the Liverpool stop...so number of crew appears to vary from 41 to 45? What a jumble of "evidence"...and the horrible rotter Mason lived after killing so many....then HIS testimony is used rather that that of his victims. argh...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=_fIzAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA453&lpg=PA453&dq="annie+jane"
and blaming the French Canadian crew in the end? Why?.... because most of them were dead?
Seems to me that this captain of this ship should have gone down with it...
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Napoleon Mercer Military Service 1845-1854 United Kingdom Birthplace Canada
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQH-JDG
Edwd Durrant Military Service 1845-1854 United Kingdom Birthplace Canada
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCQ9-CBM
and as I'd suggested earlier Joseph may have been from Liverpool...perhaps one of the crew ( 11 to 15 men ) taken on at the return to Liverpool
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajos~%20%2Bsurname%3ATallat~&collection_id=1762440
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Here is an Amable, L'Islet 1852 ...The surname could be Monn, Moni, Morin ??? the N's, R's, & I's, all interchangeable ::) phonetics mixed with bad handwriting can be a most horrible thing!
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e093/e002305555.jpg
There appear to be images on the FindMyPast site for the Merchants seamen....altho could just give same info as already available... http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/world-records/merchant-navy-seamen?lastname=gagnon
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Have become quite confused reading through the various postings, name spellings and record repositories. So my apologies if I'm repeating information that has already been given.
I've been looking at both the FindMyPast original records for Deaths at Sea and the Merchant Navy Seamen.
Under Listings for Deaths at Sea: Annie Jane
Amable MOAN - Number of Reg. Ticket: 100046
Samuel LANGLAS - Number of Reg. Ticket: 100031
Joseph TALLAT - Number of Reg. Ticket: 100012
Andre DRAPEAU - Number of Reg. Ticket: 100022
Napoleon MERCAR - Number of Reg. Ticket: 105644
Under Listings for Merchant Navy Seamen:
Amable MOAN - Age 25, birth year 1829, born Canada (Drowned/Annie Jane)
Samuel LANGLAS - Age 28, birth year 1826, born Quebec (Drowned/Annie Jane). Also listed as - Saml. LANGLOIS - born Quebec. Register Ticket 1000310.
Joseph TALLAT - Couldn't find any information on him.
Andre DRAPEAU - Age 34, birth year 1820, Born Quebec (Drowned/Annie Jane). **Register Ticket 100033 (doesn't match with the Deaths at Sea Reg. Ticket - could just be a transcription error on the original copy).
Napoleon MERCIER - born Quebec, Canada. Register Ticket 1056440
There is also:
Edwd DURRANT - born St Johns, Canada. Register Ticket 699097. Couldn't find anything else about him.
sami
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Thanks for looking for those sami...I'm afraid you'll have to get used to the confusion as this is just a two pager thus far :) ... I really should add here, though, that we all DO read through the posts before replying, and I don't think there is ever a reason not to...
I used to carefully compile a list in another program as longer posts can go south..., or I'd go back in and modify a list to keep the information cleaner, but modify only works for a while...then I'd hit save and the site would say others were posting...and then find that several other searchers had posted individual posts with the same information I'd been busy compiling...
Edward Durrant proves that 'French Canadians' weren't only born in Quebec...
There are two showing in 1851, one here a few years out in birth
There are two Samuel showing in 1851, one here a few years out in birth, but don't see him in later census...But nothin to prove this might be the correct person. He is occ. labourer, perhaps on a farm.
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=50776
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Have been trying to find more on Joseph Tallat - looking again at the register I'm wondering if the first letter of the surname is an 'L' rather than a 'T'. Couldn't get anywhere with that thought either.
Is it possible to search the Register Ticket Number?
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The Joseph Tollet I'd found earlier, in the Merchant Marines would have been older than the other crew as his signup was 1835 ...That one shows as from Wexford.
Joseph Tollet Event Year Range 1835-1836 United Kingdom Birthplace Wexford
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Thanks to the two of you for all your hard work
I will sit down on the weekend and update the website, most look pretty definite.
I am pleased to get Edward Durant as well, there is a fascinating demographic emerging of the Annie Jane as very youthful ship I haven't sat down and worked out the average age yet but I can see its going to be a lot lower than I ever expected. I wonder was that typical of emigrant ships?
JJ its funny to how many people react with anger to an event over 160 years ago, me too. It seems to have been a whitewash, Mason had just killed 350 people put into his care, whichever way you look at it the responsibility was his. He got away without any reprimand. He did not live long to enjoy it though.
Regards Allan
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There are two references under Merchant marines on FindMyPast if someone wants to peek back in there!
No discharge, so both might be for the same man as he is older.
JOSEPH Tollet ... b. 1799 Wexford — ref# BT120
JOSEPH TOLLET - - - BT112
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/world-records/merchant-navy-seamen?firstname=jos&firstname_variants=true&lastname=tallet&lastname_variants=true
No wonder I couln't find them under deaths at sea...they were all five under search keywords Annie Lane
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JOSEPH TOLLET - - - BT112
BT112/69:
TOLLET Joseph (a) 45 Hemford
Lists 8 References to Voyages beginning with Choice 3/36 and ending with Neptune Dec 38
Wasn't sure how to interpret the letters above each voyage and the FindMyPast Merchant Seamen Abbreviations lists didn't help me much.
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JOSEPH Tollet ... b. 1799 Wexford — ref# BT120
BT120/5:
TOLLET Joseph (a) 45 H..ford / Mariner / Choice of Exeter / 21 March 36
The age is given as 36 on the transcription resulting in a birth year of 1799 but when you look at the actual record the age is 45 giving a birth year of 1791.
The birth place is transcribed as Wexford but even though the original is unclear it looks more like Hemford.
The Choice references for 1836 match so it looks like both references are the same man.
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Thanks for looking. The other fellow appears to use John Joseph so that's likely the same J.J. so doubt they'd change that in the death at sea...
Did you look at this one ?..
JOSEPH Lowlett 1830 Invernessshire INVERNESS — BT116
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JOSEPH Lowlett 1830 Invernessshire INVERNESS — BT116
He seems to be in Adelaide in 1854 and returns home in 1855 - so that lets him out. I've tried a few other name variations but so far nothing that looks very likely. Let me know if there are others you wonder about.
sami
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yeah, just grasping at straws now, frustrating. Am wondering why all show clearly on both lists except Joseph...
Joseph Tilt Event Type Military Service Event Year Range 1853-1857
Birthplace England Birth Year 1833
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Joseph Tilt Event Type Military Service Event Year Range 1853-1857
Birthplace England Birth Year 1833
BT116/93: Joseph TILT age 23
Very hard to read the writing on this Joseph Tilt register entry, but the last column filled in is Home, 1856. So not him either.
Haven't quite given up yet - have seen so many transcription errors makes me think there's still a chance he might turn up with some creative thinking ;)
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Good for you, sami, I agree...that's why I shot in the dark, you never know...I'll sleep on it.
Maybe you'll have it all solved before I get back. :) J.J.
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Well, I've tried all sorts of variations beginning with T / F / J / L / H / and looking something like T*ll*t or even just **ll*t.
No luck - too bad you can't search by the Reg. Ticket number.
I'll give it a think - but at this point I've run out of ideas. Hope you weren't counting on it being solved before you got back JJ ;D
sami
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Can't believe it but:
BT114/11: (1845-1854)
Jos JALBERT, birth country Canada, Quebec, No. of Register Ticket: 100012
Quite a stretch from Tallat but the Register Ticket matches.
.........added.......after having slept on this and looking at it again I'm wondering if it should be more like Talbert than Jalbert. I'll keep looking - would like to find something that gives an age.
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That's amazing that you found the matching numbers!!! Way to GO!!!
..That is how I was taught to make a script "capital I" and it doesn't match the other J's
if it is a J
Just found this one in 1861 Joseph Jalbert Christening Date 14 May 1820 Trois-Rivières, Saint-Maurice, Quebec Birth 14 May 1820 Father Jean Charles Jalbert Mother Josephte Desilets
and there is this carpenter ( builts ox-drawn carts) in 1852, Quebec city St. Roch, who is born the same year...but unusually odd is that the birth dates are added in a notation....this was not done for another 50 years as far as i know. The rest of the date doesn't match
Joseph Octave Jalbert - Born in L'islet October 7, 1820
http://www.automatedgenealogy.com/census52/SplitView.jsp?id=60884
1871 Mont-Carmel, Champlain ..not sure if this rules out the other one as this one a farmer, different spouse...
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4395450_00079.jpg
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..That is how I was taught to make a script "capital I" and it doesn't match the other J's
After going through both Merchant Seaman and Deaths at Sea couldn't really find anything beginning with "I", "J", or "T" that looked reasonable.
Have also been looking a bit a the various census years on LAC but feel like I need some idea of birth date before being able to narrow them down.
So I'm back to being stumped :)
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Thanks to you both for all your help.
I appreciate all the hard work you have put in to this.
Let me sum up for I am getting confused.
Amable MOAN - Ticket: 100046 Amable Lemoine aged 26 L'islet Quebec
Samuel LANGLAS - Ticket: 100031 Samuel Langois aged 28 Quebec, Ticket 1000310
Joseph TALLAT -Ticket: 100012 Joseph Jalbert aged 54 Quebec ( two of them are the same age )
Andre DRAPEAU - Ticket: 100022 Andre Drapeau aged 34, Ticket 100033
Napoleon MERCAR - Ticket: 105644 Napolean Mercier aged 26 Quebec Ticket 1056440
Edward Durrant - Ticket: 699097 St Johns Newfoundland
Ubalel Gagnon - Birthplace Canada
That's a lot more information than I had, I will update the website if you have no objections.
Nothing is set in stone, will keep updating the website as long as I can.
Regards and thanks again for your input.
Allan
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Joseph TALLAT -Ticket: 100012 Joseph Jalbert aged 54 Quebec ( two of them are the same age )
Hi Allan:
I would just suggest adding the ticket number to Joseph Jalbert - 100012 - helps keep them connected.
I must be missing something now - wondering where the Tallat / Jalbert age is coming from?
sami
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Thanks for keeping me right Sami
Both the Joseph Jalberts were born in 1820 that would make them 33 not 54, maths was never my strong point.
Regards Allan
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Sorry to be a stickler, but I'm pretty sure the only one who looks to be more certain thus far....and be given a place name within Quebec would be Linda's find of a navigator :
Napoleon Mercar = Napoleon Mercier 1851 Census L'Islet, Quebec
There is no proof of the age of Tallot/Jalbert in either deaths at sea nor merchants marines was there?....and the huge discrepancy in the 2 surname spellings says to me there is more digging to be done before saying much else about him about him. ( or any of the others, beyond what Sami has found to be actually documented)
Speaking of which using the words Merchant Marine or at least M.M. beside the ticket numbers would show the finds to be more valid.
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Hello guys
JJ you are of course right, that more digging is required, the problem is it does not seem to matter how much digging you do, looking back over 160 years ago to a time when record keeping was in its infancy it is nearly impossible to be 100% sure of anything.
When I began looking it was for the origins of approx 471 people, I have inquiries running everywhere, juggling that with a busy life and the demands of home life, I wish I could devote myself exclusively to one line of enquiry. This deserves more time than I have so I am dependent on enthusiastic people like you and I can't thank you enough.
I am hoping the crew list if it exists will confirm the names of the crew, a roots chatter has volunteered and is going in to the national archives soon for me. I will leave putting the certificate numbers till then' I would like to do it for them all.
The reason I have put the names and ages on the anniejane website is it puts in the public forum, this is not the only web site I am posting questions on, though it is by a long way the best. I think its obvious that the website is a work in progress, but this gives other people the chance to say, No that's wrong, and on numerous occasions that has happened.
But you have made a very important point and one I need to address, so I am going to put a disclaimer on the website saying that I do not guarantee the accuracy of the research, and that it is a work in progress.
Thanks again
Regards Allan
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I just found a bit older post, allen, in which Linda had already found some of the information regarding the Merchant seamen ....You need to either repeat the information found or link to the older post, so as to not duplicate searches.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=731589.9
I'd suggest for the website using c. before the dates ie:c. 1820...as we all know without births, all other sources are often questionable. ( people fibbed all the time on various docs, and census answers are often slippery, were they born there or "of " "from" there at the time)
also....adding: This IS an online forum and you might be better off just linking to these pages rather than uploading info that isn't certain...rather than further muddying the waters?*
( ie: This posting could linked to as Crew Lost... It would also be a quick way back into the site for you, and a way to be sure you're not duplicating requests)
Just a suggestion, it is your site... J.J.
* What is true and what is not? Such as the parliamentery proceedings listing 101 names of survivors, The times newspaper 102...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=nqkSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq="steerage"+crew
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Hi JJ
I am not ignoring you will reply ASAP, our phone lines are down so no internet, just a very poor mobile signal.
Regards Allan
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Hello everybody
Could somebody please remind me what we did before the internet?
JJ that post was a long time ago and I had forgotten about it, thanks for pointing it out.
As for what is certain, nothing much as you so rightly point out, they could not even agree about the casualty list. 102 is the right figure, for some inexplicable reason Rachael Kelly a child survivor is left of the list yet three other members of her family are on it. She appears in Oban and back home with the rest of her family. I have an article which says "and little Rachael an engaging child, who was left of the list of survivors" and no she is not Rachael Barry, I have her elsewhere.
So what can I be 100% sure off ? one of the survivors had a different surname at three different locations.
As you say people re-invent themselves all the time, I have found joiners who were labourers and women assuming new married surnames.
I have added about 20 names to the casualty list since I started this and now the names of another 5 seamen are on the site, exact name, age ? probably not ? but as you so rightly point out names ages were fluid ? Hopefully in the future some relative doing a tree will do a search with variants and find them, get in touch with me and then it will be exact.
They will know they did not drown on the Annie Lane as find your past maintains, but the Annie Jane?
Regards everybody
Allan
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Hello everybody
Just working my way through old posts and tidying up. As some of the information on this post is now out of date. This now is quite definite as the information was taken from the crew agreement which was discovered in the national archives. After each of their names under reason for leaving ship is ( believed drowned ) So any information on the original crew agreement would have come directly from them as they signed on the ship.
In the crew discharge document the surviving French Canadians with the exception of two sign with a mark, given that, they may not even have known how to spell there own names. Names below are taken verbatim from the crew agreement.
Not looking for any new information, just want to put the correct names on the post.
They were Amable Morin: Seaman aged 25, L'islet Quebec, register number 100046
Samuel Langlois: Seaman aged 28, Quebec, register number 100310
Joseph Jalbert:Seaman aged 19, Quebec, register number 100012
Andre Drapeau: Seaman aged 24, Quebec, register number 100033
Napolean Mercier: Seaman aged 24, Quebec,register number 1056640
Also lost on the Annie Jane other French Canadians never listed anywhere.
Pierre Chevanelle: Seaman aged 29,register number 99969
Uhalt Gagnon: Seaman/carpenter, aged 24, Canada. register number 105641
Elie Levesque: Seaman, aged 24, L'islet Quebec, register number 684021