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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: vicky19 on Friday 22 January 16 10:32 GMT (UK)
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I'm looking for a Geoffrey Lawton or Griffiths born 7 December 1918 presumed in the Glasgow area.
We know his mother was Agnes Eliza Griffiths, however I'm not sure whether his surname would be Griffiths as he was known by the surname Lawton this is because Agnes married in 1922 to a Joseph A Lawton, she is believed to have lived with Joseph before this date so Geoffrey could be Joseph's natural son or could very well be a son by another unknown man.
I cannot find a birth reference for Geoffrey in the English or Scottish records as Lawton or Griffiths, he did attend Hillhead High School but their records just confirm he attended the school and do not give any more information. Does anyone know whether there would be baptism records available for this date?
Thanks
Vicky
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Vicky, there is nothing online for this period on baptisms and christenings. To research further, you would very likely need to know the church or be clearer on the area of search. Chicken and egg someimes isn't :-\
What happened in later years? Did Geoffrey remain in Scotland or move away? Where did he serve his WW2? You may find, if you are able to request these papers, that his personal details would be listed there.
What was Agnes' approximate age when she gave birth to Geoffrey? If she had to work in the three years or so up to her marriage, maybe her family helped to take care of Geoffrey? Have you traced her details?
Monica :)
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www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720931.0
Just adding link to post above as it has lots of detail that may help here.
Monica :)
Added: Vicky, just been reading through the other thread...gosh, it is a mighty complicated situation :-\
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Have you got addresses for this period?
...I also wonder when at the end the court asks him if anyone lives with him Joseph says he is supporting his 'housekeeper' and 'her son' I do wonder if this was Agnes Eliza as she has a young son born in 1918...
See also that Agnes Eliza Griffiths was born in England from what was mentioned on the other post.
Monica
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Hi Monica
Yes, um Geoffrey did move down to Ross in Herefordshire sometime later as his mother was actually from this area and when her marriage broke up she returned home, Geoffrey sadly went blind in an work related accident somewhere in the Glasgow area when he was a teenager after he'd left Hillhead high, and he was placed in a school/home for the blind in the midlands during the war, I've contacted any schools for the blind and the records office but sadly so far have not found anything yet. Sometime after this he came down to Ross and he died in there 2005.
Yes as you can see from the previous post with Agnes it gets more complicated, she was born in 1896 in Herefordshire, and was working as a servant in the Glasgow area (dont know how she got there from Ross yet) now Joseph was a commercial traveller and was in a court case for possible abandonment of spouse to different lady abt 1921/2 and in this court case he says he has a housekeeper and her young son at his house....we think this is Agnes and Geoffrey but we don't know if Joseph is the father. Agnes had another son by Joseph, he was much younger than his brother and he said that Agnes and him moved down to Ross from Glasgow when he was very small to live with her family, without Joseph or Geoffrey.
Vicky
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Always hard on the children isn't it. No different today to what we have in centuries gone by :-\
Addresses...what address(es) did Joseph give 1921-23 (marriages, court papers etc.). Was there an address given to where he was living with housekeeper Agnes? His two marriages?
Monica
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Joseph married Agnes Griffiths on 29 Sep 1922 in St Andrew Edinburgh, I don't have an address for this as I've not sent for the certificate, he married by declaration Eliza Q Daniels 11 May 1922 the address for the marriage was 31 Gayfield Sq Edinburgh, The court proceedings give Joseph's address as 29a Howe St Edinburgh. The court papers say Joseph and Eliza Daniels met in Glasgow and its believed that Joseph and Agnes also met in Glasgow, and after their marriage that Joseph and Agnes moved back to the Hillhead area of Glasgow (probably because of all the court stuff as presumably their marriage was now bigamous) but I don't have an address.
Vicky
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Just had a look. Agnes gives her family home (guessing with her father a farmer) for her address at marriage. Cobrey (not sure on this) Farm in Ross on Wye. Joseph, gives 10 Wilfrid Terrace, Edinburgh, commercial traveller and a bachelor. Agnes, a spinster, and a clerkess. Marriage by Sherrif's Warrant on 26 September 1922.
Monica
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The Valuation Rolls for 1925...there is one Joseph Lawton showing at 91 High Street Glasgow, a tenant in a house. Clicking on it, and viewing the image, can't see him there. 91 High Street listing on the image is commercial entry, likely tenants above?
Also, High Steet Glasgow...where in Glasgow I do not know :-\
Monica
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Thanks, I think Agnes father was a farmer so that sounds right, perhaps she felt she couldn't put the same address as Joseph on their marriage certificate so put her family address, oh heck there must be loads of high streets in Glasgow, needle in haystack territory....
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I'm looking for a Geoffrey Lawton or Griffiths born 7 December 1918 presumed in the Glasgow area.
I'm not sure whether his surname would be Griffiths as he was known by the surname Lawton this is because Agnes married in 1922 to a Joseph A Lawton
Vicky
Hi Vicky,
An illegitimate child born in Scotland would be indexed under both parents surnames (only if father was present at registry though).
EDIT.....He would definitely be registered under mother's surname regardless of who father was if illegitimate.
Do you know if Geoffrey had a middle name?
Annie
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Monica, High St, Glasgow was and still is, THE High Street. It runs from Glasgow Cross up the hill towards the cathedral and then becomes Castle Street at the Royal Infirmary. Can't think of any other High Streets in the Glasgow suburbs.
I don't think this man was born in Scotland at all. If he was then perhaps his name was changed for some reason. I've had a look on Scotlandspeople and, although I'm not an expert, I tried all sorts of combinations and couldn't see anything.
I wonder if Hillhead High School have his previous school on record? It was quite common to record this information and also the reason for leaving. (Usually "age" but sometimes to go to another area).
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The High Street it is, Lodger. There should only ever be one High Street anywhere ;)
With more time now, have looked through the 1925 sheet again for the Valuation Rolls for the High Street. A Joseph Lawton shows at No. 91, a cabinet maker, so do not think it is the right one from what has been discussed. It is properly indexed, just me looking at the entry number rather than the house number :P
Monica
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I don't think this man was born in Scotland at all. If he was then perhaps his name was changed for some reason. I've had a look on Scotlandspeople and, although I'm not an expert, I tried all sorts of combinations and couldn't see anything.
Likewise Lodger,
I even tried name spelling of Jef rather than Geof.
Closest I could find with date & name.....
Have been trying to work out if Richards could sound like Griffiths.....NO & wonder if Agnes changed her name for registering the birth out of embarrassment as no proof would have been needed :-\
That's why I asked if Geoffrey had a middle name.
1918 RICHARDS GEOFFREY HAROLD M ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 0129
Annie
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In case it helps re Geoffrey's birth, below is a snippet re Agnes Eliza from that Nov. marriage entry in Edinburgh in 1922:
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Monica,
Agnes is a long way from home.........maybe she'd been at Uni?
Annie
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As a clerkess, can't think what would have taken her up to Scotland at that time :-\
Monica
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Monica,
What was Joseph's father's name please?
Prior to becoming a Clerkess before Geoff was born maybe at Uni.
Was there an Agricultural College in the area with father being a farmer?
Annie
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Joseph's parents' details here:
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Thanks Monica,
No help there with Geoffrey.......not named for either father or even middle name :-\
Something strange here if not on England/Wales Index either ???
Annie
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For now...I am stuck :-\
As Vicky has mentioned early on, his death ref in 2005 gives his name as Geoffrey Lawton born 7 December 1918. If date correct, the reg for the birth could show into early 1919. More than that so far..
Monica
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1918 RICHARDS GEOFFREY HAROLD M ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 0129
A good call Rosinish but, if he was indeed born in December 1918, the reference above would have a much higher number. 644/11 is the code for Glasgow/Anderson district. 0129 means that this was the 129th birth registered in the district since January 1st. This is way too low for a huge inner-city district like Anderson. It would have been as high as that in February!
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Sorry guys had to take my children places... As far as I know Geoffrey didn't have a middle name...I've searched under surname only or with maiden name in Scotland and England, I've also searched for just Geoffrey both spelling variations with a birth year of 1918 and 1919 in Scotland and England and nothing seems to match up at all which is why I thought to look for baptism records. It could very well be Agnes registered him in another name because she was a single mum.....and his father wasn't Joseph.
Agnes wasn't as far as I know in Glasgow for the university, it did cross my mind that as Joseph was a commercial traveller they had met in Herefordshire and she'd moved up to Glasgow to be nearer him as that was his base...
Joseph A Lawton was born in west Derby lancs in 1887 his father was William Joseph Lawton a coachman.
Hillhead school just confirmed he had attended their school in a certain year and his birth date but not place of birth.
Hmmmmmm...... V
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The 1939 Register shows a Geoffrey Lawton in Ross and Whitechurch R.D., Herefordshire. Born 1918. Pity it didn't include place of birth.
Vicky, not sure if you have viewed/ordered Geoffrey's death reg in 2005. Should include place of birth if know to the informant.
Monica
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The informant on the death cert I think believed Geoffrey was born in Glasgow so put that, it's what the younger brother thought as well, it's only on searching for the birth reference to order the certificate (to find out who the father actually was) that we've found we can't find it....
I saw the 1939 register...got really excited till I looked at the original....
Vicky
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I also wonder when at the end the court asks him if anyone lives with him Joseph says he is supporting his 'housekeeper' and 'her son' I do wonder if this was Agnes Eliza as she has a young son born in 1918...
If this was Agnes then "her son" would indicate Joseph not to be the father.
I have looked at the index (all Scotland) for 1917 - 1920 for (name beginning with) Geof & no surname but nothing standing out remotely like Griffith(s) nor Agnes' mother's maiden name of Jenkins.
Annie
ADDED.....But then again he had something to hide....a wife. Even so this doesn't equate to the "non existance" of Geoffrey on the Index
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Am I reading this correctly?
Joseph A Lawton married Agnes Griffiths in Nov 1922?
Oooooh.......
Vicky can you supply me with an email address as I have just found an Edinburgh newspaper article dated 1923 re this man which you may wish to see.
He had already married another woman in May of 1922.
It was an irregular marriage which, when taken to court in Jun 1923, he did NOT contest.
Her name was Eliza Isa Queenie Daniels or Cooper or Lawton
She was a nurse, originally from England and met Joseph in Glasgow in 1919.
They moved to Edinburgh at the beginning of 1922
They married on 11 May 1922 in Edinburgh via a marriage agent and did not go to the Sheriff to decare it
They lived togeher until SEPT 1922
As Eliza produced evidence of the irregular marriage,the courts deemed this marriage as lawful and Joseph was ordered to pay his now estranged wife 30shilling per week.
If this was deemed a lawful marriage, it means that his 2nd marriage in the same year would be bigamous or unlawful.
Joseph must have assumed that his irregular marriage in May 1922 wasn't legal which is why he married again later that same year but...., there's no mention of it in this article??
Reading between the lines, this is what I take from it:
His first wife was a widow who was in receipt of 30s PW from her late husband's family.( must be Cooper?)
The payment would have ceased on her remarriage to Joseph which is why, as the marriage deemed lawful, and he had abandoned her, Joseph had to pay her the 30s PW .
Edit: Error re Geoffrey deleted
Anne
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Joseph and Eliza were living at East London Street, Edinburgh when they married in May 1922.
Joseph was living at 10 Wilfrid Street, Edinburgh when he married Agnes 4months later.
In Jun 1923 his address was given as 29a Howe Street, Edinburgh
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Hi Annie,
Ah thanks but I've got the newpaper clipping already and some of the court papers, it's all a very complicated mess, I think Joseph was a bit of the stereotypical view of commercial travellers in having different families in different places. He'd basically had an irregular marriage with Eliza Quinn which he should have taken to the Sheriff to get legalised within 3 months but didn't, then married Agnes a few months later only to have the first one legalised by the court... And in the court papers Eliza said she given birth to twins... I've not found any record of them yet either.
I've found no records of any divorces yet from Eliza... But he and Agnes must have stayed together after this because Geoffrey's younger brother was born nearly 10 years later after all this marriage confusion. It was only when the youngest son was a toddler that they split up.
I don't think Geoffrey can be Joseph's son but I so far have not found any likely candidates with other surnames who could be him either....
Vicky
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Here are two entries from the NAS to add to you collection should you ever with to obtain the actual documents.
CS46/1923/7/60 Interim decree of declarator of marriage etc. Mrs Eliza Ina Queenie Daniels or Cooper or Lawton v Joseph Aloysius Lawton July 1923
CS46/1923/11/34 Decree for payment of expenses, Mrs Eliza Ina Queene Daniels or Cooper or Lawton v Joseph Aloysius Lawton November 1923
Don
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Just to help again with the previous old thread, already linked previously, www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720931.0
Monica :)
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Thank you for trying to help...I have appreciated it, I do wonder if he just might not have been registered for whatever reason. Vicky
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Vicky, given the period of time we are talking about, v. likely he was registered. More a question under what name...and where. I think probably it may be down to the name he was registered under.
Monica