RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 17:27 GMT (UK)

Title: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 17:27 GMT (UK)
I have been trying-without success to find anything on the death of my paternal grandmas 1st husband David Cahill.  Her name was Margaret Hornby, they married at the register office in Lytham on Dec 12th 1903, David was 35 and grandma was 30.  A relative said she thinks he died in 1913,  my grandma married my grandfather-her 2nd husband in 1914, but I have not been able to find any thing on Davids death at all.  Can anyone help please.

Regards Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: lizdb on Tuesday 26 January 16 17:37 GMT (UK)
Have you found them on 1911? That would narrow it down a bit.
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: groom on Tuesday 26 January 16 17:45 GMT (UK)
A private tree on Ancestry has his death as 1913 Warrington, Lancashire. However, that leads to this death, where the age is way out. 

Deaths Jun 1913   
Cahill    David    60   
Warrington    8c   244
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: JenB on Tuesday 26 January 16 18:11 GMT (UK)
Have you found them on 1911? That would narrow it down a bit.

Wherever they were their son wasn't with them https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X49F-8L9  :-\

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=682257.msg5672102#msg5672102
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 18:22 GMT (UK)
My grandmas on the 1911 census, as married, employed as a cook in "Frenchwood House,Preston" No sign of David.  They had a son Robert Hornby Cahill B 1904,  then from what I can find, grandma left him with a couple, as he's shown in the 1911 census as been a lodger with them.  Grandma then sends for him when she married my granddad in 1914.  But not a sign of David from when they married.

Thank you both for your replies.

Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 18:30 GMT (UK)
Also when grandma married my granddad,  she says her age was 30 but she was really 39.....think she did this as my granddad was only 22  :)  She is on their marriage certificate as a widow.  She also had an illegitimate daughter when she was 16,  she was given to her sister and brotherinlaw to bring up,  so my dad thought she was his cousin-not his half sister.  When grandma married my granddad,  she would never talk about her previous marriage, what happened to David or acknowledge her daughter, even though the daughter knew she was her real mum.  Seems the grandma I knew till she died when I was 16 was a bit of a girl ha ha.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: davidft on Tuesday 26 January 16 18:32 GMT (UK)
They also had a son Terence in 1908 but he died in 1909.

The Lancs BMD site implies the marriage was at Preston register office

CAHILL   David   HORNBY   Margaret   Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended   Preston   PRESTON/126/91
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 18:56 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your reply Davidft,  a relative said she thought there was more children between grandma and David Cahill too.  He just seems too have disappeared  :-\.



Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: mosiefish on Tuesday 26 January 16 19:01 GMT (UK)
What was David Cahills occupation on the marriage certificate?

Mo
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: groom on Tuesday 26 January 16 20:35 GMT (UK)
So she was still married in 1911 although he wasn't with her, which only gives a window of 3 years. Did he come from Ireland, is there a chance he left her and went back there I wonder, in which case was the second marriage legal? That could explain why she would never talk about her previous life. 
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 22:37 GMT (UK)
It was a tailor, Mo.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 22:43 GMT (UK)
Not sure where he came from groom......and I am beginning to wonder too if her marriage to my granddad was legal,  after what I'm finding out about her life.  I didn't know nothing about her 1st marriage till I found my granddads military records on Ancestry,  and it showed a Robert Hornby Cahill as his stepson,  and I re searched from there and found out about her previous marriage.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: mosiefish on Tuesday 26 January 16 22:58 GMT (UK)
And here was I hoping he may have been a Sailor/Mariner - so died at sea.   ;D ;D  Very odd as I can`t find him back in Ireland either.  Just a thought .....  are you sure it said Tailor and not Sailor?

Mo

Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Tuesday 26 January 16 23:20 GMT (UK)
I thought it said Sailor at first,  but the great granddaughter of my grandmas  illegitimate daughter, said it says Tailor, not sailor.  On David Cahill's and my grandmas son-Robert Hornby Cahill's birth certificate, it says fathers occupation tailor or sailor (journeyman) and on Robert's marriage says same.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: groom on Tuesday 26 January 16 23:53 GMT (UK)
Quote
On David Cahill's and my grandmas son-Robert Hornby Cahill's birth certificate, it says fathers occupation tailor or sailor (journeyman)

If it says journeyman i.e. a trained worker who is employed by someone else, that is more likely to be a tailor.
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 27 January 16 00:30 GMT (UK)
What was the name of David's father, his father's occupation & who were the witnesses?

This may hold some clues?

Annie
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 10:35 GMT (UK)
I can't find a birth certificate for David, but i'll check again on their witnesses Annie.  Also when David and grandma registered their son Robert,  it said Robert was born Matshead Bilsborough  and that's where they were living at the time, area where grandma came from.



Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 11:00 GMT (UK)
I'v sent for David and grandmas marriage certificate Annie.  The witnesses were Thomas Bamber and Agnes McKeran.  Myself and my cousins daughter are interested what happened to David,  if he died in 1913 and if so how.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: groom on Wednesday 27 January 16 11:04 GMT (UK)
As I said in an earlier post, the only death in 1913 in England and Wales is the one in Warrington, but he is 60. So unless his age was more than people thought it isn't him.
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 11:36 GMT (UK)
Yes  I checked that out too groom,  but his marriage certificate says age 35.  So unless he fibbed on that about his age-but then again grandma knocked 9 years off her age when married my granddad ha ha.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: alpinecottage on Wednesday 27 January 16 12:31 GMT (UK)
Can you find another David Cahil in or near Warrington on 1911 census, who is about 58 years old?

Are you using the GRO index to establish the age of the David Cahil who died?   There may be a transcription error there or on the wedding certificate you have.

Have you been in touch with Warrington Council Cemetery Dept?  When I contacted them a couple of years ago, they were very helpful and looked up some entries in their burial register for me - I'd provided names and probable burial dates and they let me know who else was buried in the grave, who'd bought the plot and for how much, and addresses of the "occupants"
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 12:43 GMT (UK)
I'm not 100% sure he died in Warrington alpinecottage, as from what I can gather from their 1st son Robert's birth in 1904 they were living in Bilsborrow where grandma came from originally.  After the registration of Robert,  there is know sign of David.  I'll check in to what you suggest though, thank you for your input.

Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: Christine53 on Wednesday 27 January 16 13:27 GMT (UK)
From the Gloucester Citizen 2 Dec 1912   :

Tewkesbury Petty Sessions

David Cahill , a travelling tailor , pleaded guilty to being drunk in the Bredon Road on Sunday.....
fined 1s and 4s costs.

I wonder if this is your David Cahill ?
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 13:34 GMT (UK)
Oooooh i'll go check this out, thanks CB53.  It could be, from what I can put together so far he travelled around-probably why he's so hard to pin down  :).



Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: Annie65115 on Wednesday 27 January 16 14:06 GMT (UK)
I've checked Warrington council's online burial records site and he's not listed on there (but then again neither are many of my relatives who I know for certain died in Warrington, so it's clearly not comprehensive).
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: rea1 on Wednesday 27 January 16 14:54 GMT (UK)
Thanks Annie,  I had a look at the newspaper that CB53 suggested,  and there could be a chance that this chap could be David.  Maybe if he did travel around the country he could have died anywhere, or as someone suggested to me, as a John Doe if he had no identity on him.


Liz
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 27 January 16 19:29 GMT (UK)
I'v sent for David and grandmas marriage certificate Annie.  The witnesses were Thomas Bamber and Agnes McKeran.  Myself and my cousins daughter are interested what happened to David,  if he died in 1913 and if so how.
Liz

Hi Liz,

Sometimes we need further investigation to establish things to help research i.e. a witness may have had same surname & be a possible sibling which can then be researched.

The marriage cert. will state his father & occupation, from which you can look for him in 1901 prior to marriage & if his father is named with occupation on death cert. this is more or less confirmation of the correct death (hopefully the info. was known to the informant) & the death found by groom is correct as people did alter their ages where there was an "age gap"?

You may also find that there is the possibility he'd been married previously, given his age when he married your grandma if his age is out that much.

He may also not have declared to have been wed before though even if he had  ???  ;D

The joys of genealogy  ::)

Annie
Title: Re: Can any one help re death certificate.
Post by: Rosinish on Wednesday 27 January 16 20:29 GMT (UK)
From the Gloucester Citizen 2 Dec 1912   :

Tewkesbury Petty Sessions

David Cahill , a travelling tailor , pleaded guilty to being drunk in the Bredon Road on Sunday.....
fined 1s and 4s costs.

I wonder if this is your David Cahill ?

Ah.......good find CB.

I wonder, can anyone find anything with an age attached to him?

Annie