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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Radnorshire => Topic started by: Spidermonkey on Sunday 07 February 16 12:24 GMT (UK)
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I would appreciate some help in untangling an element of my husband's ancestry.
William Lucas was born on 4th Sept 1848 in Beguildy. We have his birth cert, and the mother's name is given as Ann Lucas, residence Bankhouse. No father's name is shown.
William can be seen on subsequent censuses right through to the 1911 census, and his death can be picked up in 1913. However, the same can't be said for his mother!
On the 1851 census, William can be seen with his grandparents (Edward and Ann Lucas, nee Bufton), George Bufton (Edward's step son), and Mary Lucas (Edward and Ann's daughter) living in Llanbister (the place name looks to be Bundwy, but am open to other suggestions).
Edward and Ann Lucas, and George Bufton can be followed through the censuses, but Mary Lucas goes missing (she might get married in 1851, but I haven't ordered that cert yet).
So my dilemma - are Mary Lucas and Ann Lucas (mother of William) the same person? Can anyone find a baptism of either Mary or Ann Lucas? Where do Mary and Ann go after 1851 (after 1848 in the case of Ann Lucas)?
On William Lucas' marriage cert, he gives his father's name as David Price, farmer - not the most uncommon name in Wales. We have not been able to prove or disprove this bit of information.
Many thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you can make!
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If bankhouse is Bankhouse farm then it's about 2 miles SW of beguildy, pretty remote for giving birth,
I wonder who else was living there.
Mike
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The occupiers of Bank House, Beguildy in 1851 are John Kinsey (aged 30) and his family. There are a family of Lucas' in Beguildy at this time. Jane Lucas (aged 59) and two of her children are living at New House, Beguildy. Maybe it is worth looking into Jane's family to see if there is any tie-up with the Lucas family that I'm interested in (indubitably, there will be a link, cos they were all born in Llanddewi or Llanbister, but how close a link is the question!)
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A Thomas and Jane Lucas had a daughter Ann in llandewy in 1824.
I am puzzled that your William's birth is shown as llandewy born 1850 in the 1851, I would have thought a two and a bit year old would not be shewn as a one year old, but I am aware you have lots more experience than me :) :)
Mike
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I agree with you, Mike. If he was born in 1848, why does he show up on the census as being born in late 1849/ early 1850. A birth in late 1848 would show up as a year older.
Also, there's a burial in Llanbister on 10 Sep 1849 of a 1 year old William Lucas. The record on FreeReg doesn't give any more info, but that the only William Lucas birth reg in 1848 in the area.
Have you checked the birth for William Lucas dec qtr 1849 Knighton vol 26 pg 243? he would be the right age at least.
:-\
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just spotted another burial in Llanbister
Anne Lucas age 25 buried 27 Nov 1850
which would explain why she can't be found on later census entries.
There would appear to be 2 Edward Lucas/Ann Bufton couples as well. George Bufton, son of Ann, was baptised 25 Nov 1826 in Llanddewi Ystradenni.
Edward Lucas married Ann Bufton in Llanbister in Feb 1816, but that couple would be older than your Edward & Ann?
:-\
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A Thomas and Jane Lucas had a daughter Ann in llandewy in 1824.
I am puzzled that your William's birth is shown as llandewy born 1850 in the 1851, I would have thought a two and a bit year old would not be shewn as a one year old, but I am aware you have lots more experience than me :) :)
Mike
A totally valid point regarding William's age. I know that George Bufton is his uncle and that Ann and Edward are his grandparents because I can follow them through the censuses - including the 1881 census when they are all at Baynham Farm in Brampton Bryan, and it shows William and his wife, Sarah Ann, with uncle George, Grandad Edward and Grandma Ann.
But do I have the right birth cert?
Have you checked the birth for William Lucas dec qtr 1849 Knighton vol 26 pg 243? he would be the right age at least.
:-\
I will have a look and see if I have counted/discounted the above. That might well be the answer to this conundrum.
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But do I have the right birth cert?
Have you checked the birth for William Lucas dec qtr 1849 Knighton vol 26 pg 243? he would be the right age at least.
:-\
I will have a look and see if I have counted/discounted the above. That might well be the answer to this conundrum.
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I am so going to kick myself if that is what has been the problem! I can't see any record in my notes that we even considered the 1849 birth. Total juvenile error.
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Have ordered the 1849 birth cert, which has a dispatch date of 15/2, so should see if that sheds any light on William's birth. I wonder if it will show 'aunt' Mary Lucas as the mother. Just out of curiousity, and because i can't see her again, I have ordered the marriage cert of a Mary Lucas (Knighton 26, 417) which should be dispatched the same day.
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hope the certs solve the problem. I think the family must be non-conformist as they're coming showing up in parish records on FindMyPast or FreeReg.
;)
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The certs have just arrived (I wasn't pacing up and down behind the letterbox, honest guv!).
The birth cert says - bn 1st Oct 1849, Brindu, Llanbister, William, no father's name given, mother is Mary Lucas.
The wedding cert says - May 3rd 1851: David Jones and Mary Lucas, both 'in age', bachelor and spinster, farmers son and farmers daughter, residence for David is ?Carogai Fawr, whilst for Mary it is Bryndu (so ties in nicely with birth cert above). Fathers John Jones and Edward Lucas
Just need to investigate where Mary and David end up going!
Altogether, a jolly pleasing result. Thanks guys for your help!
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I am trying to fill in the gaps of David Jones and Mary Lucas' lives. I have Mary on the 1851 census, and have found David on the 1851 at Caroge Fawr, Llanbister:
John Jones Head Wid 68 Farmer 108 acres
David Jones Son Unm 26
Sarah Jones Dau Unm 22
George Jones Son Unm 13
Anne George Gdau 8
All born Llanbister
1861, 1871 and 1881 show David and Mary with their expanding family: Ann (1853), John (1855), David (1856), Thomas (1859), George (1862), Mary (1863), Jane (1865), Elizabeth (1867), Hannah (1870), and Price (1872) all showing as being born in Llanbister except for Ann on the 1871 who is shown as being born in Llanbadarn Tynydd.
1891 - Mary has been widowed, and she is living at Tynypant, Llananno with three of her children (David, George and Lizzie) and a grandson Thomas Jones Swancott, aged 4.
I can't find a decent census for Mary after 1891, so I presume that she died between 1891 and 1901
On a side issue - on William Lucas' marriage cert, he gives his fathers name as "David Price". I am still whether he was just giving any old name, or whether it was a half truth (too much of a coincidence that his mother married a David soon after she had given birth to William?). Surely if David Jones had been William's father, then William would have been brought up with David and Mary (and surname changed to Jones :-\)
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you'd think if David had been his father, he would have lived with them. Perhaps he did just pluck a name out of the air. It's not as if David Price was an unusual name in the area!
David & Mary had a son called Price. It strikes me as a little odd to call a son the same name as the man who fathered your illegitimate son.
::) ;)
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And David and Mary weren't the only ones to have used Price/Pryce as a name - moseying around the various censuses today, i'm sure I saw a couple more Prices in the children of the children of David and Mary. But yes, I think that David Price must be different to David Jones because a) why did Mary Lucas and David Jones wait almost 2 years after the birth of William Lucas before marrying - if David Jones had got her pregnant then presumably he would have been 'encouraged' to marry Mary sooner, b) why did William Lucas never live with Mary and David? and c) why did William Lucas not take the Jones surname.
I will attempt to work out the descendants of David and Mary, because they would have been William's half siblings, but the thought of researching Jones' in Radnorshire is rather overwhelming!